The book of Job

[reneweddaybyday]

So you are saying an alligator beholds all high things, like when God met with his angels. And this alligator is king over all the children of pride.

I specifically stated "I'm not saying leviathan was a crocodile or an alligator" ... I provided an image showing the ground after an aquatic creature had passed through. This is what is spoken of in Job 41:30 ... the hide of the underside of leviathan was sharp and left marks in the "mire"

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.

There were sharp stone-like scales on the underside of the hide of leviathan. It might be good if you looked at the various translations of Job 41:30 I provided for you in Post 117. I'm not just making stuff up out of thin air concerning this verse.

It would appear you agree that Job was striving with God, because Job confessed he was vile. That would also mean that Isaiah 45:9 applices to Job. Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Job believed God was contending with him ... read Job 10 ... and Job repeatedly asked God to show him what he had done so he could repent and have the fellowship between himself and God restored.

However, it was not God Who was inflicting Job for any wrongdoing on Job's part ... it was satan who attacked Job.

Job 2:4-6 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Isaiah 44 speaks of the idolatry of Israel.

Just because a word appears in Job and the same word appears in Isaiah ... this does not mean what is written in Job applies to what is written in Isaiah (and/or vice versa).

Words are to be understood in the context within which the word is placed by the Author of Scripture.

Job had a deceived heart.

chapter and verse, please.

Under the first test Job did not sin. But under the second test Job did not sin with his lips. So what about his heart? Job well understood the two types of sinning, one with the lips, and one with the heart. Job though his sons had sinned in their hearts.

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Job offered burnt offerings unto God on behalf of his children ... Job said "it may be that my sons have sinned" ... Job did not say they had sinned; nor did Job say he believed they had sinned. Job said "it may be". Job made offering to God in case they had sinned inadvertently or ignorantly.

the words "cursed God in their hearts" refers to sin being a curse to God. Job did not infer that his children had cursed God in their hearts. Job believed that sin ... any sin, whether inadvertent or knowingly committed ... was a curse to God.

Job said many good scriptural things, but where was his heart. He condemned God so that he might be righteous.

All of them (Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu) stated Scriptural truth. The problem was the inaccuracy of attributing to Job some secret sin for which he needed to repent.

They all believed Job was being chastened ... Eliphas, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu believed Job was hiding sin.

Job kept asking God to reveal to him if and when he had sinned so he could repent.

None of them knew Job was under attack from satan.

satan attacks all mankind for no other reason than that's his ministry (steal, kill, destroy - John 10:10).

What sin had been committed by Adam and Eve prior to satan tempting Eve? ... what sin did the Lord Jesus Christ commit before satan tested Him?

A lot of the actions of satan in OT writings were attributed to God ... not because God was doing what was done by satan, but because it wasn't until the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth that the activities of satan were exposed.

At the end of Job's trial, his family and friends came to him to comfort him and give to him ... they all still believed Job's affliction was from God ... not satan as is clearly revealed in Job 1 and 2.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

The affliction of Job is a direct result of the attack of satan ... 100% from satan.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ concerning scribes and pharisees who appeared to be something they were not. you are in error if you believe Job was being referred to in Matt 15:8.

Actually Strong's H2303 - ḥadûḏ refers to Job and not leviathan. It refers to Job being a potsherd who is under, or being threshed, or refined by Satan.

you and I are not in agreement in this point.

You don't see God as the potter and mankind as the clay?

not in Job 41:30 as has been explained to you more than once by me (and by others as well).

.

 

[tttallison]

Let me be more specific: does the Lord speak of Job being righteous in a positive or negative way in Ezekiel 14?

Positive way.

The fundamental difference in your point of view is that your claim is that Job is not "saved". But based on what is *in the text* we know Job already had a relationship established with God. Furthermore, if Job was solely relying on himself, why would he be crying out to God, asking God to show him his sin, and wanting to restore his relationship with God?

Why can you not accept that Job's relationship with God was established prior to his ordeal? Why do you insist on making it something else, which requires omissions of the text and forcing ideas and other Scripture out of context into the story?

Yes, Job was patient. Again, consider the epistle by James (where Job is mentioned by name in chapter 5) and the theme of suffering:

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 5:10-11
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Job did not know to be just with God. Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If Job was saved he would already be just.

Job didn't know who, or where God was. Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job was striving with God, and wanted an independent judge. Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.

Job's charge against God. Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job makes another charge against God. Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job's second request for a judge. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Requirements for the judge. Job 9:34-35 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job repeats his requirements for the judge. Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

God's answer to Job. Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

Job speaks, and Elihu's reply. Then would I speak, and not fear him;------------if thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.(Job 33:5)

Job requested a judge of clay and God honored that request. God sent Elihu.

Job's ordeal is not a coming-to-faith story. It is a story involving a testing of Job's faith *that existed prior to his ordeal*. The *trying* or *testing* of Job's faith worked patience for him, and in the end, his already established faith was rewarded. Why? Because he passed the tests. Both of them.

It's painfully obvious that Job was clearly not trusting in himself anyway. The reason he mentions those things about his life (chapter 29, for example) is because his friends were accusing him of wrongdoing. Again, he's not proclaiming these things to boast and brag like some proud person. He is arguing his case to his friends who are lying about him. (Look at Eliphaz's last speech where he completely fabricates evils that Job has committed with no basis whatsoever.)

If Job was as prideful and self-righteous, as you claim he is, then why in the world would he be turning to God, seeking Him, and asking God to point out his sin? It's illogical according to your own opinion of Job. Your own ideas are contradicting each other.

How do we know Job trusted God through his ordeal? As mentioned, because Job is seeking God and begging to know what went wrong in their relationship. If Job was "lost" as you believe, why wouldn't God just show him right away? But that's not what the story is about. No, it's about Job's faith being tested, and God's silence was part of that test.

Job also states clearly that he trusts in God in Job 13:15 where he says, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him..."

As for Job 27:6, that is a continuation of Job's response to Bildad. For Job to admit he had committed a sin to incur his suffering would itself be a sin. Why? Because it would be a lie and contradict what God said from the beginning. Plus the friends are rebuked by God for not speaking what was right, as is obvious to anyone looking at the entirety of the story.

In Ezekiel 14, when God speaks of Job's righteousness, is it your belief that he is accusing Job of pride?

Also, how do you ascertain that Job's righteousness is a righteousness apart from God? God says Job fears God and shuns evil (the very definition of wisdom, by the way) and yet you infer this to mean something bad?

The perspective you espouse of Job and about this whole story is just bizarre. Have you ever considered taking what the text says at face value (specifically chapters 1 & 2) and moving on into the story from there?

In Ezekiel 14 Job is not being accused of pride.

After the second test God no longer stated that that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Check it out.

 

[tttallison]

Positive way.



Job did not know to be just with God. Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If Job was saved he would already be just.

Job didn't know who, or where God was. Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job was striving with God, and wanted an independent judge. Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.

Job's charge against God. Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job makes another charge against God. Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job's second request for a judge. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Requirements for the judge. Job 9:34-35 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job repeats his requirements for the judge. Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

God's answer to Job. Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

Job speaks, and Elihu's reply. Then would I speak, and not fear him;------------if thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.(Job 33:5)

Job requested a judge of clay and God honored that request. God sent Elihu.



In Ezekiel 14 Job is not being accused of pride.

After the second test God no longer stated that that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Check it out.

The three friends said, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Job said, Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

The spirit said, Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Notice that what the spirit said to Eliphaz, and what Elihu said to Job, and what God said to Job is all the same.

 

[christophernyc]

The three friends said, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Job said, Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

The spirit said, Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Notice that what the spirit said to Eliphaz, and what Elihu said to Job, and what God said to Job is all the same.

So can you explain how your particular interpretation comports with the epistle of James and what he says of Job in chapter 5? And can you explain how your particular interpretation also comports with what the Lord Himself says about Job in Ezekiel 14?

 

[GWH]

There were many theories on why Job suffered the things he suffered. God rebuked several of the people with the opinions.

However, in this thread I would like to look at what the rest of the Bible says to figure out what God's role was and why this happened.

1. God is omniscient. The book of Job makes it clear that He knew what Satan was planning to do.

2. God is omnipotent. The book of Job makes it clear that God allowed it to happen.

If you deny that God is omniscient then that is considered Blasphemy. If you deny that God is omnipotent that also is blasphemy.

3. God said this about Job: "8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

So that has to be part of your explanation, it can't contradict what God says here because God cannot lie.

Now we have promises from God in Psalm 91 and Deuteronomy 28 to protect us from evil. That is a covenant that we have with God.

How can you reconcile the covenant and promises we have with God with what happened? By all means use your own personal experiences if that helps explain this.

Job appears to be a dramatic allegory that teaches one main lesson: We should be patient or persevere in our faith in God. God allowed Satan to test Job in ways we may be tested: by destroying his material possessions, his health and his family relationships, leaving only his wife, which was the worst part of the trial. (That’s a joke, but she did tempt Job to curse God.) Job also still had some friends, who tried to help him see what God wanted to teach him through this painful experience.

Job 5:17. Blessed is the man whom God corrects. I cite this as a key teaching because it is also found in PR 3:11-12 (using slightly different words), which is quoted in Hebrews 12:5-6: The Lord disciplines [corrects] those He loves [blesses].

Job 8:3. “Does God pervert justice?” No, God is perfectly just. (Cf. Job 21:7 and the commentary on Josh. 6:17-21, 8:2, 10:28 & 11:20.) Neither should earthly rulers and politicians pervert justice.

Job 9:2. “How can a mortal be righteous before God?” He/she cannot. Psa. 14:3 says, “There is no one who does good, not even one,” and Jesus said in Matt. 19:17, “There is only One who is good.” However, Heb. 4:15 teaches that “we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet was without sin,” referring to Jesus. And Paul wrote in Phil. 3:9 that he did not claim righteousness of his own, “but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith”, which echoes what he said in Rom. 3:22&26: “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe; [God] justifies [considers righteous] the man [person] who has faith in Jesus.” This righteousness is sometimes called positional or imputed righteousness.

Job 10:18. “Why then did [God] bring me out of the womb?” What is the purpose of this earthly existence? Once we are saved, why are we not immediately taken to heaven? Why do we have to waste time being here on earth?

The answer is that we are not supposed to waste the time but rather we should redeem the time by becoming like God morally, or as Paul says, we should be imitators of God and “live a life of love, just as Christ loved us.” (Eph. 5:1-2) Paul calls this goal the “fullness” of God/Christ (Eph. 3:19, 4:13, see Lesson 4), becoming more like Him morally or in loving attitudes and actions (PHP 3:7-9, EPH 5:1-3) until the day we die. This is our calling, our mission, our stewardship, and our goal (1John 1:3-4).

Job 19:25-29. This speaks of life and judgment beyond this earthly lifetime. Paul writes about this prophetic word by Job in 1Cor. 15:20&42, “Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. So it will be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable.” And Heb. 9:27 says “Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”

Job 21:7. “Why do the wicked live on, growing old and increasing in power?” More generally, the question is why does God allow evil, pain and suffering? My answer is explained in the Apologetics thread.

Job 24:12. “I have treasured the words of [God’s] mouth more than my daily bread.” This verse foreshadows the teaching of Jesus in Matt. 4:4: “Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” There is a mystical union of God’s Spirit or Word and the mind of a man who understands and hungers for God’s words, as implied by Job 32:8: “It is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.”

 

[JayWalker]

We always have to remember to read things like Job in light of the New Testament where the Lord gives us the greatest amount of revelation concerning how things work within His creation as well as remember to ask the Lord to remind us of the Whole Counsel of God (all the things He has said to mankind thru His written Word) when studying any biblical subject.

James 1:13-15
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

In Job’s case God couldn’t have been in agreement with satan stealing, killing, and destroying
things out of Job’s life as these are evil things as Jesus noted in John 10:10, so there had to
have been a reason why satan had opportunity to slap Job around.

But, God obviously allowed Job to experience trouble which is related to Galatians 6:7,8
and Job gives us the key to understanding why the hedge of protection was broken when
he said what he feared had come upon him (Job 3:25-26)

Ecclesiastes 10:8
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him

Ephesians 4:22-24
Put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 8:1,2
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 5:16
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Psalms 91
speaks of dwelling in the secret place of the Most High and provides the benefits of doing so…. In the New Testament
this is abiding IN CHRIST (see John 15)

Proverbs 16:7
When a man's ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.
(sounds like where Job was before he started being in fear concerning his children)

1 Peter 5:6 (see Psalm 55:22)
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
Casting all your care upon him; for he cares for you.

James 4:6-8
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

***The definition of resisting the devil is submission to the Lord, living in agreement with His ways of being and doing right – which includes turning away from all known sin in one’s life being separated from the world and being set apart unto the Lord.

Philippians 4:6,7
Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Psalms 55:22
Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength

Job 22:21-22
Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee.
Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.
If thou return to the Almighty, thou shalt be built up, thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles.

Job said he was living in fear and that's why he got attacked.

Job 3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me

And we know living in fear is a sin:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire

God says fear not many times in His Word and it's not a suggestion.

 

[JayWalker]

God allowed satan to test Job

Not according to this:

James 1:13-15
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

No, Job's actions is the reason he got attacked.

Let's not blame the Lord for our failures.

 

[Suze]

Not according to this:

James 1:13-15
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

No, Job's actions is the reason he got attacked.

Let's not blame the Lord for our failures.

I think I understand what u r saying . We all have worldly fears , we r weak humans so we have our fears and insecurities . Our greatest test comes if or when , our greatest fear comes true , that's our chance to shine or to crumble . Will we lean on the LORD ? Will we continue to trust Him and wait patiently for Him to bring us through our trial or , will we crumble into a heap and seek solice in worldly solutions whilst blaming God for our troubles . God says somewhere , can't remember where now , something along the lines of : I wound and I heal , words to that effect , a few times . Job did the right thing , he waited for God , he didn't curse God he just waited for Him . In the meantime his 3 friends and his wife got on his nerves , tempting him to say something foolish .

 

[GWH]

Not according to this:

James 1:13-15
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

No, Job's actions is the reason he got attacked.

Let's not blame the Lord for our failures.

Yes, the entire OT should be understood in light of the NT.
Per Job God allowed Satan to test him, just as He does us, but yes, we are responsible for not resisting temptation.
God allows temptation because it actualizes humanness/moral responsibility/MFW, which is God-likeness.
We should not fear God, because He loves us, and we should reflect His love or run to Him rather than hide from Him.

 

[JayWalker]

I think I understand what u r saying

It would be better to understand what the Lord is saying which is He is not the one putting evil on people.

I think I'll stick with what Jesus said:

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

This means God is good and the devil is bad.

Let's not fall for the devil's lies and believe his claim that God is bad and is the One bringing bad things in to your life.

We all have worldly fears , we r weak humans so we have our fears and insecurities

No, not those that have matured in the Lord and know how to stand on His promises.

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Will we lean on the LORD ? Will we continue to trust Him and wait patiently for Him to bring us through our trial or , will we crumble into a heap and seek solice in worldly solutions whilst blaming God for our troubles

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

God says somewhere , can't remember where now , something along the lines of : I wound and I heal , words to that effect , a few times

God is the One bringing pain and hardship upon you?

He only does that to His enemies. He does not do that to His children.

That would be like a mother wanting to teach their child to not touch the burner on the stove and then turning it on and intentionally putting his hand on the burner to burn it to teach him a lesson.

That's child abuse, and the Lord does not engage in child abuse. But, the devil has brought in religious teachings to make it look like He does, but the devil is a deceiver and a liar.

In the meantime his 3 friends and his wife got on his nerves , tempting him to say something foolish .

Yeah, His friends told Him cause caused the hard times to come upon him, but God intervened and said Job's friends had spoken wrongly about God.

Job 42:7-10 (God says that Job’s friends have spoken wrong of Him because He didn’t attack Job with evil, as they claimed)
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

*Job prays for his friends and God accepts the faith prayers of Job. This opens the door for God to deliver Job from his troubles, and God blessed him with twice the amount of possessions that he had before satan’s attacks.

Yes, the entire OT should be understood in light of the NT.
Per Job God allowed Satan to test him, just as He does us, but yes, we are responsible for not resisting temptation.
God allows temptation because it actualizes humanness/moral responsibility/MFW, which is God-likeness.
We should not fear God, because He loves us, and we should reflect His love or run to Him rather than hide from Him.

James 1:14,15
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (separation from God).

Job allowed the devil to have opportunity to attack him, not the Lord.

Job 3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me

God put the hedge of protection around Job, and Job broke it due to being in fear.

Ecclesiastes 10:8
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him

 

[GWH]

It would be better to understand what the Lord is saying which is He is not the one putting evil on people.

I think I'll stick with what Jesus said:

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

This means God is good and the devil is bad.

Let's not fall for the devil's lies and believe his claim that God is bad and is the One bringing bad things in to your life.




No, not those that have matured in the Lord and know how to stand on His promises.

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.





James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.




God is the One bringing pain and hardship upon you?

He only does that to His enemies. He does not do that to His children.

That would be like a mother wanting to teach their child to not touch the burner on the stove and then turning it on and intentionally putting his hand on the burner to burn it to teach him a lesson.

That's child abuse, and the Lord does not engage in child abuse. But, the devil has brought in religious teachings to make it look like He does, but the devil is a deceiver and a liar.




Yeah, His friends told Him cause caused the hard times to come upon him, but God intervened and said Job's friends had spoken wrongly about God.

Job 42:7-10 (God says that Job’s friends have spoken wrong of Him because He didn’t attack Job with evil, as they claimed)
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

*Job prays for his friends and God accepts the faith prayers of Job. This opens the door for God to deliver Job from his troubles, and God blessed him with twice the amount of possessions that he had before satan’s attacks.




James 1:14,15
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (separation from God).

Job allowed the devil to have opportunity to attack him, not the Lord.

Job 3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me

God put the hedge of protection around Job, and Job broke it due to being in fear.

Ecclesiastes 10:8
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him

Re "Job allowed the devil to have opportunity to attack him, not the Lord.": Once again we see the need for both-and logic.
Obviously the Lord both allowed the devil to tempt Job and allowed Job to allow the devil to tempt him.

 

[JayWalker]

the Lord both allowed the devil to tempt Job and allowed Job to allow the devil to tempt him.

Actually the Lord built His entire creation on the seedtime and harvest principle, sowing and reaping.

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also)
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

What Job ended up doing was he started getting in to fear and was living in fear (Job 3:25, 26) that his children would sin and die (Job 1:4,5) which is exactly what ended up happening. He did the same sacrifice over and over again due to living in fear (Job 1:4,5)

As already posted, living in fear is not of God and is actually sinful being listed as one of the things people do that cause them to be rejected by the Lord and end up in hell shown in Revelation 21:8.

So the Lord did not "allow" satan to attack Job, it was actually God allowing seedtime and harvest to take it's course. God would have had to violate His own Word concerning seedtime and harvest to stop satan from attacking Job.

Job sowed to the flesh (living in fear is being disobedient) and he reaped corruption which is why satan had the legal right before the Lord to attack Job. Job's fear broke the hedge of protection God had put around him.

Ecclesiastes 10:8
whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him

God cannot lie so when He says He is not mocked you shall reap what you sow, He cannot interrupt that because if He did it would make Him a liar and God is not going to violate His own Word because He said in His Word it's impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

 

[Suze]

It would be better to understand what the Lord is saying which is He is not the one putting evil on people.

I think I'll stick with what Jesus said:

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

This means God is good and the devil is bad.

Let's not fall for the devil's lies and believe his claim that God is bad and is the One bringing bad things in to your life.




No, not those that have matured in the Lord and know how to stand on His promises.

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.





James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.




God is the One bringing pain and hardship upon you?

He only does that to His enemies. He does not do that to His children.

That would be like a mother wanting to teach their child to not touch the burner on the stove and then turning it on and intentionally putting his hand on the burner to burn it to teach him a lesson.

That's child abuse, and the Lord does not engage in child abuse. But, the devil has brought in religious teachings to make it look like He does, but the devil is a deceiver and a liar.




Yeah, His friends told Him cause caused the hard times to come upon him, but God intervened and said Job's friends had spoken wrongly about God.

Job 42:7-10 (God says that Job’s friends have spoken wrong of Him because He didn’t attack Job with evil, as they claimed)
And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

*Job prays for his friends and God accepts the faith prayers of Job. This opens the door for God to deliver Job from his troubles, and God blessed him with twice the amount of possessions that he had before satan’s attacks.




James 1:14,15
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death (separation from God).

Job allowed the devil to have opportunity to attack him, not the Lord.

Job 3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me

God put the hedge of protection around Job, and Job broke it due to being in fear.

Ecclesiastes 10:8
He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him

Firstly , I know we r all supposed to trust in God and never b afraid of anything , that would b awesome if we all had that perfect faith and no worldly fears at all ever , if u r managing that all day every day then my hat is off to u .
Secondly , I think this may b a translation difference . I only use the KJV and its full of the word evil , spoken many times by God Himself , especially in the book of Jeremiah . Most of the time it's the Hebrew word ra'ah , which is almost always translated as evil in the KJV . In other modern versions it's usually translated as either calamity , disaster or punishment . You may b reading those words in your Bible but I'm reading the word evil in my KJV . Amos 3 verse 6 , verse 2 gives context . Isaiah Ch 45 verses 5-7 . Jeremiah Ch 6 V 19 also ch 11 v 11 and lots of others in Jeremiah . I love the KJV and my concordance , it's a Strongs Exhaustive and only usable with the KJV . Job Ch 2 V 10 in my KJV reads ,
But he said unto her , Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh . What ? shall we receive good at the hand of God , and shall we not receive evil ? In all this did not Job sin with his lips .
A line from one of my favourite movies ; what we have here is a failure to communicate .
I often forget that other translations even exist , I'm in a KJV bubble .

 

[Suze]

Actually the Lord built His entire creation on the seedtime and harvest principle, sowing and reaping.

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also)
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

What Job ended up doing was he started getting in to fear and was living in fear (Job 3:25, 26) that his children would sin and die (Job 1:4,5) which is exactly what ended up happening. He did the same sacrifice over and over again due to living in fear (Job 1:4,5)

As already posted, living in fear is not of God and is actually sinful being listed as one of the things people do that cause them to be rejected by the Lord and end up in hell shown in Revelation 21:8.

So the Lord did not "allow" satan to attack Job, it was actually God allowing seedtime and harvest to take it's course. God would have had to violate His own Word concerning seedtime and harvest to stop satan from attacking Job.

Job sowed to the flesh (living in fear is being disobedient) and he reaped corruption which is why satan had the legal right before the Lord to attack Job. Job's fear broke the hedge of protection God had put around him.

Ecclesiastes 10:8
whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him

God cannot lie so when He says He is not mocked you shall reap what you sow, He cannot interrupt that because if He did it would make Him a liar and God is not going to violate His own Word because He said in His Word it's impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

Just so u know that , I'm not biased and I don't hold grudges , I give u a genuine compliment and thanks , u have definitely enhanced my understanding of the book of job , I appreciate that . This is one of the reasons I like this site so much , so many different personalities and even if we don't all get along perfectly all the time , that doesn't mean that we can't learn from every and any one on here , I thank God for this site and every person on here

 

[GWH]

Actually the Lord built His entire creation on the seedtime and harvest principle, sowing and reaping.

Mark 4:26 (see Genesis 1:11 also)
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

What Job ended up doing was he started getting in to fear and was living in fear (Job 3:25, 26) that his children would sin and die (Job 1:4,5) which is exactly what ended up happening. He did the same sacrifice over and over again due to living in fear (Job 1:4,5)

As already posted, living in fear is not of God and is actually sinful being listed as one of the things people do that cause them to be rejected by the Lord and end up in hell shown in Revelation 21:8.

So the Lord did not "allow" satan to attack Job, it was actually God allowing seedtime and harvest to take it's course. God would have had to violate His own Word concerning seedtime and harvest to stop satan from attacking Job.

Job sowed to the flesh (living in fear is being disobedient) and he reaped corruption which is why satan had the legal right before the Lord to attack Job. Job's fear broke the hedge of protection God had put around him.

Ecclesiastes 10:8
whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him

God cannot lie so when He says He is not mocked you shall reap what you sow, He cannot interrupt that because if He did it would make Him a liar and God is not going to violate His own Word because He said in His Word it's impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

I understand that Heb. 6:18 says God can not lie, which prompts questions regarding the freedom of God: Can God be evil? Is God the Father able to change His will, is God the Son free to sin, and could God the Holy Spirit become demonic? Is it possible for God to be tricky?

If God cannot do what He has decreed to be evil, then He would not be as free as volitional creatures, and there would be no basis for praising His holiness. Paul (in Rom. 9:16-21) upholds the freedom of God to love or hate as He chooses. Just as God created physical laws such as gravity, so He created moral laws such as “love everyone” and determined a plan of salvation involving the atoning death of Messiah to win our redemption from hell. Thou shalt love (Matt. 22:37-40).

The cliché “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately. There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating whether God is just is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained for those created in His image (Rom. 3:22-26, Gen. 1:26-27). God’s is free because God could have chosen to anoint Satan to embody evil logic/lies rather than Jesus to manifest love and truth (John 1:14, Phil. 2:9-11), and this earthly existence would be hell (Rev. 19:11-13, 20:7-10 & 21:6-8).

If God were ever to change His mind, it would mean that God is tricky and that morality is ultimately arbitrary. Thus, ultimate reality would indeed be a farce. This is why we should be eternally grateful that God has decreed loving to be right, and He promises never to change (Mal. 3:6). Let us praise God in the spirit of Psalm 66:1: “Shout with joy to God, all the earth! Sing to the glory of his name; Offer him glory and praise!” Amen. God will never lie.

 

[christophernyc]

Job said he was living in fear and that's why he got attacked.

In Job 2:3 God says:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

So according to your statement about why Job suffered, is it your belief then that there was a cause? Is that what you are saying? Can you clarify?

 

[tttallison]

So can you explain how your particular interpretation comports with the epistle of James and what he says of Job in chapter 5? And can you explain how your particular interpretation also comports with what the Lord Himself says about Job in Ezekiel 14?

James says God showed tender mercy to Job because Job endured. How does this disagree with God saying, Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?
Wasn't it at the end of Job's suffering that God showed mercy. Wasn't it after Job said, I am vile in chapter 40:4 and then in Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Doesn't repentance come before salvation? Wasn't the reason for Christ to give himself a ransom, the sins of a man.
Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Do you believe these three men were their own saviours?

This is a side question, do you believe that this Daniel was from the book of Daniel?

 

[JayWalker]

would b awesome if we all had that perfect faith

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 12:3
God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The Lord has given us His faith, so there's no excuse to be in fear

 

[JayWalker]

Can God be evil?

No, unless a person is looking at things from the devil's point of view.

When the power of the Lord prevents the devil from doing destruction, the devil claims God is being evil for doing that

prompts questions regarding the freedom of God: Can God be evil? Is God the Father able to change His will, is God the Son free to sin, and could God the Holy Spirit become demonic? Is it possible for God to be tricky?

All questions satan uses to entice people to not believe God is good and to blame God for things the devil has done.

 

[JayWalker]

So according to your statement about why Job suffered, is it your belief then that there was a cause? Is that what you are saying? Can you clarify?

You tell me.

Job said what he feared came upon him and the Lord says living in fear is one of the things that cause people to go to hell.

In Job 2:3 God says:

Did you not read the rest of the Book of Job, or did you take one statement out and ignore the rest of the Book and ignore the rest of God's Word?

Go back and read all those scripture references I posted and let me know if we should cherry pick the bible and not take it all seriously as all of it being true

Job was heart right before the Lord and was not intentionally being malicious or rebellious against the Lord which is why the Lord said he was upright.

That does not mean Job was not involved in error because he certainly was by walking in fear doing the same sacrifices over and over showing he was not doing those sacrifices in faith.

Those claiming it was God's will for satan to attack Job and God called upon satan to go attack Job are claiming God is evil like satan and God is intentionally putting evil upon people. This is being confused thinking God and satan are the same guy

Jesus very clearly tells us in John 10:10 that it's the devil that comes to steal, kill, and to destroy
The Lord tells us through the Apostle James in James 1:13-15 that God is not tempting any man with evil

Not accepting and considering the whole counsel of God is how false doctrine comes forth