Loss of salvation???

[Gideon300]

So... it has become apparent.

@studier believes we can lose our salvation.

If we are the ones who save ourselves, we can surely lose our salvation. I did not save myself. Jesus saved me. Salvation is God's business. Revelation 7:10 says "salvation to our God....." Some versions include "belongs" as it is obvious that God does not need saving. Psalm 3:8 says "belongs."

If salvation depends on how diligent, how faithful, how obedient and how good we are, no one would be saved. No one is that good and no one but Jesus has ever lived the life that perfectly pleased God. He now represents the believer to God and God accepts us because we are hidden in Christ with God. I don't have to try to be crucified with Christ. I can't anyway. I could nail my feet and one hand, but that's it. So God does it all perfectly in Christ. All we do is receive with joy and learn to live in the light of that great salvation.

 

[Gideon300]

Brashness is not a good way to witness.


Your verse....

Romans 6.5
5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,


I'd like to bring up verses 8, 10 and 12, but we'll stay with verse 5.

Notice the wording:

IF we have become unified in Him
in the likeness of His death
certainly
we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Some questions:

1. Are we unified IN HIM?
Do we reflect love as Jesus taught?
Are we abiding, living in Jesus?
Where is the evidence?

2. Are we united in His death?
Have we died to sin?
Are we now living for God?
Do we understand that sin is not compatible with God's nature?


IF the above is true in our life....
then we will be like Him at resurrection.


(verses 8, 10 and 12 will confirm the above)

Those who are born again are already united in the death of Christ and in His resurrection also. This is God's doing, not ours. Do you not understand that It is of God that you are in Christ Jesus? (1 Corinthians 1:30). Do you not know that believers are dead to sin because of what God has done, not because of what we do? (Colossians 3:3).

You speak as if you never sin. You speak as if you are perfect in love and obedience. Good for you. You are unique among the brethren. I suppose only you and Jesus will be in heaven.

 

[studier]

God's initial judgement is this: are you alive or are you dead? If God has made you alive, He gives eternal life. This is the new life, resurrection life that we gain by included in the resurrection of Christ. In order to take my eternal life from me, someone would have to go back in time and stop Jesus rising from the dead. Of course, that is impossible.

People are not made alive spiritually one moment and dead spiritually the next if they sin. Sin breaks fellowship, not relationship.

Those who are born again have a new nature that is inclined towards God. They may struggle with sin, fail to overcome and even backslide. But the new life within them will be unchanged. Some will miss out on God's rewards and placement in God's kingdom because they were unwilling to let go of their own self will. But they will not be found in hell.

A presentation of believed doctrines, but no Scripture.

The argument is not that anyone takes your eternal life from you.

To recap: IOW, sin/disobey as much as we want to - no problem, just lose social life and some rewards.

 

[Musicmaster]

Sin does not change our relationship with God. Believers are not born again one minute and unsaved the next. However, sin does break fellowship with God. Restoration is simple. The believer needs to confess their sin.

People who love sin and are not interested in changing are not born again. Sadly, a whole lot of people who attend church are Christian in name only. Anyone can say that they are Christian. God knows the truth.

Israel did indeed have that requirement laid upon them, but that was under their gospel. Paul never stated the requirement for confession that I can recall. If I may, would you mind sharing how any of us can effectively confess our sins apart from a general overcast blanket of confession...given that none of us knows all the sin we commit on a daily basis? Where it's true that John, an apostle to Israel, not Gentiles, did teach us Israelis back then that if we confess our sins, the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

Don't worry, I once believed this idea about confession too in order to be forgiven, and that we can break fellowship with God, but that too is a foreign concept in Paul's ministry with it being more like a modern invention here in the West. Therein is the reason I've abandoned Westernized Christianity with all its nonsensical inventions of seemingly spiritual beliefs that have no grounding in scripture.

Thanks

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Those who are born again are already united in the death of Christ and in His resurrection also. This is God's doing, not ours. Do you not understand that It is of God that you are in Christ Jesus? (1 Corinthians 1:30). Do you not know that believers are dead to sin because of what God has done, not because of what we do? (Colossians 3:3).

You speak as if you never sin. You speak as if you are perfect in love and obedience. Good for you. You are unique among the brethren. I suppose only you and Jesus will be in heaven.

It seems as though that poster is following some of the teachings of the likes of that false prophetess Ellen G. White.

MM

 

[studier]

So... it has become apparent.

@studier believes we can lose our salvation.

Such a putz at times Gene.

I've said several times I'm open to good arguments either way. At the moment the better arguments FROM the Text point to loss. I've also said I see security, but not as broadly or on the same terms as others do.

You have to explain away conditional clauses, warnings, misuse verb tenses, claim doctrinal superiority and time spent under the greatest teacher(s) to try to support your position.

Not a convincing argument for me, Gene. Nothing more than that.

You went pretty quiet after asking about the verb tense in Eph2:8. Why's that?

 

[studier]

It seems as though that poster is following some of the teachings of the likes of that false prophetess Ellen G. White.

MM

That poster you have on ignore after he kept challenging your 2 Gospels, extreme mid-Acts dispensationalism, repeated illogical arguments, and self-perceived superiority because you're an Israeli (mentioned once again in #8.444) and such things of little to no importance in the debates.

Don't worry, you western gentiles (dogs as you've highlighted at times), John only told we Israelis to confess our sins, but you gentile western dogs of Paul, no need for you to do so (you probably don't even know what sins are).

 

[Roger316]

There is no justice with determinism.
They are total opposites.

Not according to Paul. He believed in determinism and he argued that Divine determinism did not render God unjust. Romans 9:14-18

 

[Roger316]

Using the FORM of the IF used would be helpful in the translation process.

Some translations are literal and may not like to use this method.
Personally, I find it to be closer to the meaning of the original Greek, and have no problem with it.

I've never used the amplified version...wonder what they would do with the IF's....

I checked:

Matthew 4:3 They just translate IF

Hebrews 3:14 IF ONLY
Amplified Bible
For we [believers] have become partakers of Christ [sharing in all that the Messiah has for us], if only we hold firm our newborn confidence [which originally led us to Him] until the end,


The Amplified even added that we have to hold firm to what ORIGINALLY led us to Him.....until the end.

In this passage, the IF clause is not intended to be a warning but an encouragement.

 

[studier]

In this passage, the IF clause is not intended to be a warning but an encouragement.

How so?

 

[Roger316]

How so?

In the same paragraph, he tells them that he is sure they won't fall away.
It's like this: Suppose a football coach is encouraging his team to play hard in the second half of the game. He might say, " We will win this game if you go out there and continue to make yardage. " He knows they will. There isn't any doubt about it.

 

[studier]

In the same paragraph, he tells them that he is sure they won't fall away.
It's like this: Suppose a football coach is encouraging his team to play hard in the second half of the game. He might say, " We will win this game if you go out there and continue to make yardage. " He knows they will. There isn't any doubt about it.

Where?
Ask the coach if he provides investments advice - if so, then have him call me.

 

[Roger316]

Where?
Ask the coach if he provides investments advice - if so, then have him call me.

Hebrews 6:9

The conditional statement needs to be understood in context.

Hebrews 6:4-8 is a hypothetical = beginning with "in the case of . . .

Hebrews 6:9 begins a new thought.

 

[Roger316]

Reminds me of Pharoah.
Who hardened his heart anyway?
LOL
Difficult to tell from Exodus !

Both, and this is your first clue.

 

[Gideon300]

A presentation of believed doctrines, but no Scripture.

The argument is not that anyone takes your eternal life from you.

To recap: IOW, sin/disobey as much as we want to - no problem, just lose social life and some rewards.

You don't get it still. Believers have a new nature. If they want to life a life of sin, they are not born again. That does not mean believers are immediately sinless. Your attitude is like that of the prodigal son's elder brother. I'd hate to be around you.

 

[studier]

You don't get it still. Believers have a new nature. If they want to life a life of sin, they are not born again. That does not mean believers are immediately sinless. Your attitude is like that of the prodigal son's elder brother. I'd hate to be around you.

Now, now...

I get it pretty well, actually.

 

[studier]

Hebrews 6:9

The conditional statement needs to be understood in context.

Hebrews 6:4-8 is a hypothetical = beginning with "in the case of . . .

Hebrews 6:9 begins a new thought.

Weren't we looking at Heb3:14 ?

 

[studier]

If we are the ones who save ourselves, we can surely lose our salvation. I did not save myself. Jesus saved me. Salvation is God's business. Revelation 7:10 says "salvation to our God....." Some versions include "belongs" as it is obvious that God does not need saving. Psalm 3:8 says "belongs."

If salvation depends on how diligent, how faithful, how obedient and how good we are, no one would be saved. No one is that good and no one but Jesus has ever lived the life that perfectly pleased God. He now represents the believer to God and God accepts us because we are hidden in Christ with God. I don't have to try to be crucified with Christ. I can't anyway. I could nail my feet and one hand, but that's it. So God does it all perfectly in Christ. All we do is receive with joy and learn to live in the light of that great salvation.

Always the same straw men.

The other side of the debate does not think they can save themselves and the assertion that it's either God or man is faulty logic and unscriptural.

The argument from the other side is not how good we believers are.

The argument from the other side is; does God remove the believer's volition so he cannot walk away?

These discussions are like being on a merry-go-round.

 

[Roger316]

Weren't we looking at Heb3:14 ?

Were You? I'm sorry. I was mistaken. My Bad. I thought I was tracking with the conversation.

In my view, Paul is concerned with a group of Hebrews who are starting to question Paul's doctrine. They seem to be having second thoughts, especially concerning whether the Messiah would be an angel, a theophany, or a man. Paul argues that it is fitting that the Messiah should be a man for the reasons he presents. In chapter 3, Paul appeals to the brethren to encourage those among them that are weak in faith 'that there not be in any one of you and evil and unbelieving heart that falls way from the living God.'

Hebrews 3:12-14

One could certainly argue, from this passage, that some believers fall away. If that is your point, then I agree with it.

 

[Roger316]

Always the same straw men.

The other side of the debate does not think they can save themselves and the assertion that it's either God or man is faulty logic and unscriptural.

The argument from the other side is not how good we believers are.

The argument from the other side is; does God remove the believer's volition so he cannot walk away?

These discussions are like being on a merry-go-round.

I used to say (tongue-in-cheek) that God violates our will to save us. :} And I can see why you would disagree with that. But I am trying to take seriously and make sense of various NT metaphors like "born again", "circumcision of the heart." "proven faith' indwelling Spirit and other phrases, which speak of an irreversible transformative process. Would you like to share your thoughts on those?