The book of Job

[JayWalker]

Also avoid believing God is not free to do evil

Believing God is evil and capable of doing evil is what deranged people that listen to the devil believe

Was salvation different in the Old Testament than in the New Testament, and if so, how?

You tell me.... before Jesus went to the Cross there was no way for anybody to get born again.

Job did not know how to be just with God

That's funny because God called Job upright.

These are all the words of Job. If you can summarily dismiss these words out of hand, then you are in effect creating your own bible.

A man under duress living in fear who has just lost his children and all his possessions say lots of weird stuff.

It's very telling that you aren't interested in what the Lord has to say, not only in the Book of Job but through out the entire Word of God.

 

[JayWalker]

There was God's cause for allowing the test

The only reason God "allowed" the "test" was because Job sowed to the flesh and reaped corruption (Gal 6:7,8)

God was not bored and looking for some entertainment calling the devil on his space phone saying "hello satan, uh yeah God here... Listen why don't you send some demons over to Job's place and murder his children, destroy all his stuff, and slap him around awhile... I'll start the popcorn and when you get here we'll have a beer and watch the fight" as some suppose.

They way many see Job's situation is about like this, they God like messing with people.

These same people usually get cancer or some other malady because they are following the devil and don't even know it.

 

[tttallison]

You tell me.... before Jesus went to the Cross there was no way for anybody to get born again.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the earth.

Elihu explains the rebirth of Job. Job 33:22-28 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness. He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

Within Elihu's words is the complete picture of being born again. First you have the ransom, who is Jesus Christ, slain from the foundation of the earth. 1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Then we have to put on God's righteousness who is Jesus Christ. Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Job was very old when the story began and yet he lived another 140 years. Job saw the light, and everything was made new. Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Job saw the light, and that light was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

At the wedding in Revelation 19 those that did not have a wedding garment were not welcome. They needed to be clothed in God's righteousness, who is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the wedding garment.

Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

Job had been clothed in his own righteousness in the beginning.

 

[GWH]

Believing God is evil and capable of doing evil is what deranged people that listen to the devil believe





You tell me.... before Jesus went to the Cross there was no way for anybody to get born again.




That's funny because God called Job upright.





A man under duress living in fear who has just lost his children and all his possessions say lots of weird stuff.

It's very telling that you aren't interested in what the Lord has to say, not only in the Book of Job but through out the entire Word of God.

Being capable of evil is not being evil; Jesus suffered temptation but did not sin (Heb. 2:14-18).

 

[tttallison]

That's funny because God called Job upright.

A perfunctory study of the text can lead one to believe that God exalted Job above a higher station than was intended.

When we look at the two following verses the description of the two men look similar, but the Hebrew behind the translated English words (In red) are not the same.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

If you do your homework you will see it.

​

 

[JayWalker]

Being capable of evil is not being evil

 

[JayWalker]

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the earth.

And yet one could not get born again until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

God exalted Job above a higher station than was intended.

So God made some errors in this deal eh?

You think God sins every not and again?

 

[GWH]

View attachment 286306

The astute reader will notice that JW ignored/disregarded/laughed at Hebrews 2:14-18.

 

[christophernyc]

I am not a Hebrew scholar, and have never claimed to have been, but I do fairly well with logic. Can you tell me what Hebrew biblical manuscript you find the word "yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā" in, and the century it was written?

Go to biblehub.com.

Hebrew Concordance: yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā -- 2 Occurrences

yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā — 2 Occurrences

Job 1:11
HEB: עַל־ פָּנֶ֖יךָ יְבָרֲכֶֽךָּ׃
NAS: that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.
KJV: now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
INT: and to your face curse

Job 2:5
HEB: אֶל־ פָּנֶ֖יךָ יְבָרֲכֶֽךָּ׃
NAS: and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.
KJV: and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
INT: to your face will curse

Your particular take is nowhere to be found.

 

[christophernyc]

God said to Satan after the first test that Satan's cause was unjust. God never states what God's cause is for allowing the test. Satan's cause was unjust because Job blessed God after the first test. After the second test Job does not bless God. Where is Job's heart at this point? After the second test God does not state that Job is blameless and upright, nor does God state that Job retains his integrity after the second test.

Yeah because satan did not show up a third time for God to converse with again. There was nothing left to take away from Job anyway. He was completely decimated, and as we know from the text, Job believes he will be dying soon. However, I believe God's appearance is what saves Job's life, and as we know, God fully restores him.

Your descriptions of things that can't be found in the story are like some weird hallucinations. It's just a strange handle on this story, saying God didn't say for a third time Job was blameless and upright? satan didn't appear a third time. That's not part of the story. It's such a bizarre idea to inject into your interpretation.

 

[christophernyc]

Have you ever known anyone who tries to do good, but isn't saved? They believe they are going to heaven because of their good works. They believe they are going to heaven because they are good, but they are without knowledge. Job had zeal for God, but it was without knowledge, and going about to establish his own righteousness had not submitted himself to the righteousness of God. This is the picture Paul gives us in Romans 10 of Israel. And Paul said his heart's desire is that they might be saved.

Yeah, you've made this point before, comparing Job to Saul. However, Saul was actively responsible for murdering Christians. Did you forget that part? Not exactly "blameless and upright" was he?

This is yet another instance where you have taken contexts from other passages and tried to force them into the narrative of Job.

 

[christophernyc]

There are many reasons to be found in the book of Job why Job wasn't saved in the beginning. First, God never said Job was saved. What God said was that Job was self-righteous, and perhaps the most self-righteous person that ever lived. God asked Job if he could do the things that only God can do, and if he could, then God told Job he could be his own saviour.

So can you point to another character from the Old Testament where God said they were "saved"? If that is your standard, do you have examples from the Old Testament to support it? Please share.

God does not say Job is "self-righteous". God says the opposite, which means you are contradicting God's testimony of Job. I understand that is your interpretation, but those words are (again) *not in the text*.

Also, how can Job (according to God's testimony of him) be blameless and upright, fearing God and shunning evil AND be self-righteous at the same time? Isn't self-righteousness effectively the sin of pride? So how can Job be full of pride and fear God and shun evil? It makes no sense. The notion is an aberration on its face.

As you have laid out, your views on this story blatantly contradict what is written in the text. It appears you have the basic facts all wrong, which means your interpretation has a very faulty foundation.

 

[tttallison]

So God made some errors in this deal eh?

You think God sins every not and again?

You left a portion of what I said out, thus portraying what I said out of context. Do you do that often?

 

[tttallison]

Go to biblehub.com.

Hebrew Concordance: yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā -- 2 Occurrences

yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā — 2 Occurrences

Job 1:11
HEB: עַל־ פָּנֶ֖יךָ יְבָרֲכֶֽךָּ׃
NAS: that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.
KJV: now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
INT: and to your face curse

Job 2:5
HEB: אֶל־ פָּנֶ֖יךָ יְבָרֲכֶֽךָּ׃
NAS: and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.
KJV: and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
INT: to your face will curse

Your particular take is nowhere to be found.

Bible Hub said, "The term "curse" in Job 1:11 is derived from the Hebrew word that can also mean "bless," but in this context, it is understood as a euphemism for cursing God. Most English translations use "curse" because it fits the narrative where Satan challenges Job's faithfulness, suggesting that Job would renounce God if his blessings were taken away."

Bible hub is telling us that it is not the word form, but rather the narrative. The translators chose curse because it fits their narrative, and not that the word form demanded curse. The King James translators said they followed Tyndale except where the evidence demanded otherwise. The rest of the translations said they were following the King James, and were just cleaning up the Old English.

Since I am not a Hebrew scholar can you tell me why "yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā" is different from ḇā·ră·ḵ and thus demands the English word curse?

 

[tttallison]

Yeah, you've made this point before, comparing Job to Saul. However, Saul was actively responsible for murdering Christians. Did you forget that part? Not exactly "blameless and upright" was he?

This is yet another instance where you have taken contexts from other passages and tried to force them into the narrative of Job.

What I presented was of Israel. They had a zeal for God, but without knowledge, and going about to establish their own righteousness had not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. This picture fits Job to a tee. Paul indicated they were lost because of this. Are you saying Paul's words are not trustworthy?

 

[tttallison]

So can you point to another character from the Old Testament where God said they were "saved"? If that is your standard, do you have examples from the Old Testament to support it? Please share.

God does not say Job is "self-righteous". God says the opposite, which means you are contradicting God's testimony of Job. I understand that is your interpretation, but those words are (again) *not in the text*.

Also, how can Job (according to God's testimony of him) be blameless and upright, fearing God and shunning evil AND be self-righteous at the same time? Isn't self-righteousness effectively the sin of pride? So how can Job be full of pride and fear God and shun evil? It makes no sense. The notion is an aberration on its face.

As you have laid out, your views on this story blatantly contradict what is written in the text. It appears you have the basic facts all wrong, which means your interpretation has a very faulty foundation.

You have to admit that Elihu paints a pretty good picture of being born again when he says his flesh shall be fresher than a childs.

The picture God paints of Job is pretty much the same picture he presents in Deuteronomy 32 when God declares Israel as the apple of his eye. God calls Israel Jeshurun.(The upright) He then declares their sin when they turn from righteousness.

Deu 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun (The upright) waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
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Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Job 13:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine enemy?
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Deu 32:28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
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Job was a righteous man who became unrighteous. God foreknew it, and thus was the reason for Job's trials.

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

 

[tttallison]

So can you point to another character from the Old Testament where God said they were "saved"? If that is your standard, do you have examples from the Old Testament to support it? Please share.

God does not say Job is "self-righteous". God says the opposite, which means you are contradicting God's testimony of Job. I understand that is your interpretation, but those words are (again) *not in the text*.

Also, how can Job (according to God's testimony of him) be blameless and upright, fearing God and shunning evil AND be self-righteous at the same time? Isn't self-righteousness effectively the sin of pride? So how can Job be full of pride and fear God and shun evil? It makes no sense. The notion is an aberration on its face.

As you have laid out, your views on this story blatantly contradict what is written in the text. It appears you have the basic facts all wrong, which means your interpretation has a very faulty foundation.

There are only two types of righteousness that I know of. One is man's and the other is God's. If it is man's righteousness, than it has to be called self-righteousness. We know Job didn't possess God's righteousness because God asked Job if Job was condemning God so that Job might be righteous.

 

[christophernyc]

Bible Hub said, "The term "curse" in Job 1:11 is derived from the Hebrew word that can also mean "bless," but in this context, it is understood as a euphemism for cursing God. Most English translations use "curse" because it fits the narrative where Satan challenges Job's faithfulness, suggesting that Job would renounce God if his blessings were taken away."

Bible hub is telling us that it is not the word form, but rather the narrative. The translators chose curse because it fits their narrative, and not that the word form demanded curse. The King James translators said they followed Tyndale except where the evidence demanded otherwise. The rest of the translations said they were following the King James, and were just cleaning up the Old English.

Since I am not a Hebrew scholar can you tell me why "yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā" is different from ḇā·ră·ḵ and thus demands the English word curse?

The word is translated as curse is used to follow the narrative that satan is challenging Job's faithfulness --- because that is the narrative, as previously proven.

Also, since you seem to hang a significant portion of your interpretation on the word "lo" used in Job 1:11, here is more information for how that particular word is also used in Hebrew:

Original Word: לֹא
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: lo'
Pronunciation: lo
Phonetic Spelling: (lo)
KJV: X before, + or else, ere, + except, ig(-norant), much, less, nay, neither, never, no((-ne), -r, (-thing)), (X as though,(can-), for) not (out of), of nought, otherwise, out of, + surely, + as truly as, + of a truth, + verily, for want, + whether, without

Notice the alternative uses? It's not just the one you seem to have clung onto, which is why other translations include these kinds of words.

NKJV: But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
TLV: But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!”

The challenge is whether or not Job will "curse" God --- not if Job will "not bless" God.

I realize you are committed to your interpretation and will likely not consider any alternative. However, a clear, legible, legitimate alternative has been provided for you to consider nonetheless.

 

[tttallison]

The word is translated as curse is used to follow the narrative that satan is challenging Job's faithfulness --- because that is the narrative, as previously proven.

Also, since you seem to hang a significant portion of your interpretation on the word "lo" used in Job 1:11, here is more information for how that particular word is also used in Hebrew:

Original Word: לֹא
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: lo'
Pronunciation: lo
Phonetic Spelling: (lo)
KJV: X before, + or else, ere, + except, ig(-norant), much, less, nay, neither, never, no((-ne), -r, (-thing)), (X as though,(can-), for) not (out of), of nought, otherwise, out of, + surely, + as truly as, + of a truth, + verily, for want, + whether, without

Notice the alternative uses? It's not just the one you seem to have clung onto, which is why other translations include these kinds of words.

NKJV: But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
TLV: But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!”

The challenge is whether or not Job will "curse" God --- not if Job will "not bless" God.

I realize you are committed to your interpretation and will likely not consider any alternative. However, a clear, legible, legitimate alternative has been provided for you to consider nonetheless.

The following are 10 consecutive chapters containing "lo". It should seem obvious that "lo" means not, or is negative.

“lo” occurs in 260 verses in Job

Job 1:10 Hast not (H3808) thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse (H1288-H3808) thee to thy face.
Bless not = curse

Job 1:22In all this Job sinned not (H3808), nor charged God foolishly.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not (H3808) receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 2:12 And when they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not (H3808), they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon their heads toward heaven.

Job 3:10 Because it shut not (H3808) up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

Job 3:11 Why died I not (H3808) from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Job 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not (H3808) been; as infants which never saw light.

Job 3:18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not (H3808) the voice of the oppressor.


Job 3:26 I was not (H3808) in safety, neither (H3808) had I rest, neither (H3808) was I quiet; yet trouble came.

Job 4:6 Is not (3808) this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?

Job 4:16 It stood still, but I could not (H3808) discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,

Job 4:18 Behold, he put no (3808) trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

Job 4:21 Doth not (H808) their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.

Job 5:6 Although affliction cometh not (H3808) forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground;

Job 5:12 He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot (H3808) perform their enterprise.

Job 5:19 He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no (H3808) evil touch thee.

Job 5:21 Thou shalt be hid from the scourge of the tongue: neither (H3808) shalt thou be afraid of destruction when it cometh.

Job 5:24 And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not (3808) sin.

Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not (H3808) spare; for I have not (H3808) concealed the words of the Holy One.

Job 6:21 For now ye are nothing (H3808); ye see my casting down, and are afraid.

Job 6:30 Is there iniquity in my tongue? Cannot (3808) my taste discern perverse things?

Job 7:1 Is there not (3808) an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

Job 7:7 O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no (H3808) more see good.

Job 7:8 The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no (H3808) more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no (3808) more.

Job 7:10 He shall return no (H3808) more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not (H3808) refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 7:16 I loathe it; I would not (H3808) live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.

Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not (H3808) depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not (H3808) pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 8:11 Can the rush grow up without (H3808) mire? can the flag grow without water?

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not (H3808), where, and who is he?



The first test has Job blessing God, and this is why Satan's cause was unjust because Satan had said Job would not bless God. After the second test Job did not bless God.

 

[christophernyc]

What I presented was of Israel. They had a zeal for God, but without knowledge, and going about to establish their own righteousness had not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. This picture fits Job to a tee. Paul indicated they were lost because of this. Are you saying Paul's words are not trustworthy?

Reread my post. I was referring to Saul before he became Paul. So there is no need to distort the fact I do believe "Paul's" words are trustworthy. We can stick to the discussion at hand without introducing unrelated remarks.

But more to the point, I thought your post was referring to another point you made regarding Paul when he gave his pedigree. He includes the word "blameless" in there --- and that is what I thought you were referring to again. I understand now you were referring to your other point where you believe, in your interpretation, that there is a parallel between Israel and Job, with which I respectfully disagree.

Thank you for clarifying.