Loss of salvation???
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You are simply avoiding a fair question.
Very sincere people have had a change of heart.
Have you ever sincerely believed something and now reject it?
Was Saul/Paul not a sincere Pharisee among Pharisees.
In other words, the verses does not mean what it says.
Thanks for "rightly harmonizing" these verses for us.
Peter had a temporary weak moment and denied Jesus three times because he was afraid. Peter did not remain in denial.
Prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I sincerely believed that salvation was based on works, but I now reject that false gospel. I had a change of heart when I chose to repent and believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; 20:21; Romans 1:16) Saul/Paul was a sincere Pharisee among Pharisees until he chose to repent and believe the gospel and not the other way around.
The verses mean exactly what they say and confess and deny are in contrast with each other.
So, Peter's denial was permanent and without repentance and Jesus will deny Peter before His Father?
The Pharisees along with other religious leadees are depicted as being behind persecution and scourging of early followers of Jesus within the synagogues as in Matthew 10:17 and the Pharisees represent the primary group in the Gospel of Matthew that resisted and sought to destroy Jesus and his ministry.
The immediate context of Matthew 10:33 focuses on instructing the disciples to fearlessly acknowledge Jesus despite persecution and the broader context of the Gospel of Matthew highlights the Pharisees as the leading opponents who "deny" or Jesus's authority.
Matthew 10:33
Shall deny me (αρνησητα με). Aorist subjunctive here with οστις, though future indicative ομολογησε above. Note accusative here (case of extension), saying "no" to Christ, complete breach. This is a solemn law, not a mere social breach, this cleavage by Christ of the man who repudiates him, public and final.
Matthew 10 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org https://share.google/tDyF4K5mDIGdhMnkr
The immediate context of Matthew 10:33 focuses on instructing the disciples to fearlessly acknowledge Jesus despite persecution and the broader context of the Gospel of Matthew highlights the Pharisees as the leading opponents who "deny" or Jesus's authority.
Matthew 10:33
Shall deny me (αρνησητα με). Aorist subjunctive here with οστις, though future indicative ομολογησε above. Note accusative here (case of extension), saying "no" to Christ, complete breach. This is a solemn law, not a mere social breach, this cleavage by Christ of the man who repudiates him, public and final.
Matthew 10 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org https://share.google/tDyF4K5mDIGdhMnkr
How do we know that at some future time some of these others will not come to repentance, like Peter did?
Lot of those people were in churches that were boring and legalistic.
And, Peter was under the best teachings one could ask for.
We never know if they will repent before they die.
Leave them be.
Just separate yourself from them and work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.
What most folks fail to comprehend is that salvation is not a one time deal, it has three parts - Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. Accepting Lord Jesus as Lord and Savior is Justification, afterward it's Sanctification by growing in spirit, and the end, the resurrection in new, incorruptible body and eternal union with the Lord is Glorification. In the parable of the sower, the stony ground is the unsaved without Justification; the shallow ground and thorny ground, however, are the ones with Justification but without Sanctification, the seed of the gospel is accepted, but failing to bear fruit; only the last group truly completes all three parts of salvation, and even for them, their yield varies - "some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty". So this is not a simple black and white dichotomy. As long as you think of salvation as a simple black and white dichotomy, you'll be confused by seemingly contradicting gospel verses, and you'll never get it.
“Behold, a sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” (Matt. 13:3-9)
Therefore hear the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Matt. 13:18-23)
“Behold, a sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” (Matt. 13:3-9)
Therefore hear the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Matt. 13:18-23)
It's not heretical Lovette..it's what gets lost in translation.
The only time the word hell is correctly translated in the NT is here:
2 Peter 2.4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
The Lake of FIre is also something different.
You've also correctly stated Luke 16 but using different wording...OK.
That would be known as hades. A waiting place....
However, now, after the cross,,,,those in Abraham's bossom have been released to heaven.
Right.
The Prodigal has squandered his inheritance which the father gave to him at the time the son asked for it.
2/3 to be exact, since he was the older son.
So he lost his inheritance.
And what is OUR inheritacne?
Is it not heaven?
1 Peter 1:4
4To an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
Matthew 5:12
12Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven,
BTW,,,,Matthew 5.12 also covers for those that claim we lose rewards but not salvation.
In order to receive any reward we must be in heaven.
jesus is teaching that we are not to squander our salvation...
it's a precious gift...as He teaches in Matthew 14:45....finding a pearl of great value.
And, yes sir, the Father is always waiting for us to return with open arms after we've wandered off.
John repeats this teaching of Jesus in his letter 1 Chapter 1:9
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I'm not good with eschatology so I won't reply to the above.
As far as I could understand the utter darkness is where God is not present.
To me this represents hell....where God will not be present.
The only light we have is the light God furnishes.
Those that were removed from the Banquet were also thrown out into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Not a good place to be.
Matthew 22:13
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Well said !
One question:
If we do not go on to sanctification...
do we also lose justificaiton?
Some do not tie the two together.
What good is the bible, even kept as a whole, if we cannot even agree on what it's teaching?
Some matters are small....no matter.
Some go to the very essence of Chrsitianity...to its very heart.
We have posters who state that they are Christian and yet do not believe Jesus is God.
They do not believe the trinity because they're unable to understand it.
Some believe a person can hear the gospel, or know about God in some way, and decide that he wishes to serve God.
Some believe that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.
How to reconcile these big differences?
These differences did not exist until very recently.
Perhaps, yes, THE CHURCH should be decideing what being Christian entails.
After all, it's THE CHURCH, that kept Christianity safe for us so we could pull it apart into different factions...
and this is not what Jesus wanted.
Ephesians 4:4-5
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
1 Corinthians 1:10
10I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
John 17:21
21That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you,
However,,,authority does have its problems too.
absolute power
corrupts absolutely
I don't believe this is correct Roger.
See if you agree with this:
A person reads the bible for himself and comes to believe that no matter what they do they will be saved.
Many on these forums will state this. Not too many thankfully...even those that bellieve in OSAS do post that we are to live
in accordance with God's will.
But not all do and a wrong teaching is giving and some will absorb this...
either by others or by their own reading.
BUT
God demands obedience and He demands that we do not live a life of sin.
Revelation tells us that nothing unclean will enter into heaven.
So? Aren't some taking a big chance with their eternal sou?
Revelation 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no * one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever * come into it, but only * those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I would respectfully suggest that it all starts and ends with God's unilateral saving of someone through Jesus Christ the Savior, with all other spiritual changes occurring and flowing from that.
Come on Roger.
Be nice.
YOUR comments were also in my post to you.
Had to go back too far.
What do you mean you can't read your own statements?
Don't you know what you believe?
Do you change from post to post??
You believe God does it all with no cooperation from us.
Right.
I've been saying this all along.
If God accomplishes everything from beginning to end....
this removes free will from the salvation process.
This is known as monergism....
and you still haven't explained a 3rd way.
No. You have not resolved the conflict.
First you said man does have free will,,,and you've said this repeatedly.
THEN you state that God does everything.
Can't be both.
Make up your mind.
OK that blue thingy is not working which is why we should post scripture...
but I'm not in charge here.
I can imagine the verse though since I've explained it 100 times.
Will check.
yes sir.
Calvinists love Romans 9:16
What is puzzling me is that someone of your caliber of intelliegence will actually try to use this verse
thinking the other member will become confused.
Surely you must know what this verse means?
Or has your reformed belief system so clouded your vision?
Here's the Calvinist view...the view YOU adhere to since you posted Romans 9:14 as a proof text
In Romans 9:11-13 Paul has asserted that God elected Jacob but not Esau and that this election was not due to any works done by them at all; in fact it was done before they were born. The purpose given why God acted this way is that his goals in creation and redemption might in no way hang on the "works" of men but might be wholly dependent on himself.
That God should have no respect to human deeds in electing men may seem to some unjust. So Paul raises this question in 9:14 and answers with a resounding NO, God is not unrighteous to act this way. Verse 15 is then given as a ground (for: gar) for Paul's assertion that God is righteous to act this way. Verse 16 is given as an inference (therefore: ara oun from verse 15. Together verses 15 and 16 support the righteousness of God in his sovereign election. How do they function to give this support?
source: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-argument-of-romans-9-14-16
Here's what every other denomination believes:
Take your pick. I believe the following is correct....I'm not reformed.
It's the idea that our works do not save us....
only God's mercy/grace saves us.
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
16. of him that willeth] Not that human willing and running are illusions; but they are not the cause of mercy. They follow it; they may even be the channel of its present action; but they are not the cause. Its origin is not “of” them. Cp. Php 2:13.
runneth] The idea is of one actively moving in the path of right His energy may tempt him to think that he originated the motion; but he did not.—The word “runneth” belongs to St Paul’s favourite metaphor of the foot-race. See 1 Corinthians 9:24-26; Galatians 2:2; Galatians 5:7; Php 2:16.
Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 9:16. Ἄρα οὖν, therefore) so also Romans 9:18. The inference of Paul here is not drawn from the particle ὃν ἂν, whomsoever, but from the words ἐλεῶ and οἰκτείρω, I have mercy, and I have compassion.—οὐ τοῦ) not of the man that willeth, nor of him that runneth, supply it is, the business, or, will, course [the race is not of him that runneth, etc.]; not that it is in vain to will rightly, and, what is of greater importance, to run, or strive rightly, 1 Corinthians 9:26; Php 3:14 : but because to will and to run produce none of the things aimed at by those, who trust to their works. The human will is opposed to divine grace, and the course [the run] of human conduct to divine operation.—Comp. Romans 9:30-31.
Romans 9:16
Vincent's Word Studies
It is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth. It, the participation in God's mercy. Of him, i.e., dependent upon. Runneth, denoting strenuous effort. The metaphor from the foot-race is a favorite one with Paul. See 1 Corinthians 9:24, 1 Corinthians 9:26; Galatians 2:2; Galatians 5:7; Philippians 2:16; 2 Thessalonians 3:1. God is laid under no obligation by a human will or a human work.
Of couse our free will has something to do with our salvation.
Don' t you believe a person should WANT to be saved?
Don't you believe God's grace could be resisted?
Do you ever post scripture?
Could you post something that shows me that I could be saved against my will?
Well kind sir,,,
I'm not wrestling with any questions because I know whom I have believed in.
If you're not willing to expose the 3rd choice...
it can only mean that you have very little confidence in it.
Sure.
Except you never post any.
And I don't enjoy philosophical talk.
Roger
Your verse do not support your view of OSAS, which is not found anywhere in the NT.
What I'm saying is this....
It is possible for a person to forfeit their salvation.
Following are some passages that teach this.
If you do not care to believe it because you have come to believe that JESUS is greater than man
AND SO
man can do anything he wants to and live anyway he wants to because JEUS IS GREATER...
Not something YOU have discovered BTW....
Then you are not following what JESUS, WHO IS GREATER THAN MAN spent over 3 years teaching and which is, of corrse,
confirmed by those He taugth.
We can lose our salvation. It is possible to fall away:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,
they were saved...
and then fell away.
Romans11.19-22
19Youwill say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be graftedin.”
20Quiteright, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by yourfaith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21forif God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you,either.
22Beholdthen the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity,but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness;otherwise you also will be cut off.
If we do not continue in God's kindness,,,we could be cut off.
1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrinesof demons,
Somewill fall away.
Matthew24:10-11
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hateone another.
11“Manyfalse prophets will arise and will mislead many.