Ok...
Doesn't God want us to obey Him? Yes
Does that save us? No
We're not good enough to save ourselves. Sin once and you're a sinner. Doesn't change the fact that He wants us to do good.
No living faith without works
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Ok...
Doesn't God want us to obey Him? Yes
Does that save us? No
We're not good enough to save ourselves. Sin once and you're a sinner. Doesn't change the fact that He wants us to do good.
Peter was SORRY he denied Jesus.
Jesus will never deny anyone that is sorry for their sin.
Peter was not apostate.
Nor did he indulge in a sinful life.
Peter has NOTHING to do with loss of salvation.
You and the other member are clinging to anything...
This is desperation to be right.
Well, actually, obeying Jesus DOES save us.
Here are some verses to ponder:
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
You could go ahead and chnage the word OBEY to BELIEVE.
In the Greek it means the same.
John said TO BELIEVERS that if we DO NOT OBEY the Son the wrath of God will abide in us.
It is necessary for A BELIEVER to obey God.
Jesus said that the WISE MAN will ACT on His words/teachings....
so that our house will stand.
The foolish man DOES NOT ACT on the words/teachings of Jesus....
his house will fall when the winds blow.
THE WISE MAN ACTS on Jesus' words.
Matthew 7:24-27
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
THE FOOLISH MAN DOES NOT ACT on Jesus' words.
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."
Paul said we will be judged by our good works.....he is repeating what Jesus taught him:
God will render to each man according to his deeds/good works.
Romans 2:6-8
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
The above, unless accompanied by scripture, is just an opinion.
Please provide some scriptural support for your idea that good works/obedience to God, does not save us.
Asked and answered. You don't like the answer. I don't care. Dont confuse me with someone who is disturbed by your opinion. Also you don't control the discussion.
Yes AGAIN who enters the kingdom? According to Jesus, not everyone who recites the magic incantation will enter the kingdom but only the one who does the will of his heavenly Father. Now I can listen to Jesus or I can listen to you and your cashier turned pastor tell me something different. Give me a second to think it over ...
I have a question for YOU Inquisitor.....
If I may:
You've posted John 6:40
Everyone who BEHOLDS the Son and BELIEVES in Him will have eternal life.
What does BEHOLD mean?
What does BELIEVE mean?
Really important words.
So what are you arguing about? What you just stated about Peter is true for all Christians. . .
A person [saved, in-Christ, justified buy His death and resurrection] will always be sorry for their sin. To say otherwise, is to say that they are not truly a Christian. They may claim to be a Christian out of fear, but they are NOT CHRISTIAN.
If you actually believe that you have reached perfection, then you are but a Pharisee in sheep's clothing. ..
Ephesians 2:8-9
Galatians 2:21
Romans 11:6
These all say that we're not saved by works.
Romans 3:23 clearly states we're not good enough
It's grace given to us by God that saves.
But we may be getting somewhere....
John, as you say, states that we will see wrath if we don't obey God. He goes on to say that those are the ones who love Him and He will love them too.
Just believing isn't enough, the demons believe that and shudder... Belief is deeper than knowing something exists and will be shows with our changed life and works. It needs a full submission to God to follow Him and His ways, we're not to be luke warm.... As for being saved despite not being able to save ourselves with works after failing so many times, that's Jesus and our faith in Him. None of that means we don't obey the Lord. Romans 6:1-2. The saved will live as God instructs and It will be seen in their works....
So, how much obedience (works) does it take?
That's because to not obey the Son here is to refuse to believe in the Son. Works-salvationists often cite John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works which "follow" believing and even refer to that "as" believing. In regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
So, where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have sufficiently obeyed God so NOW the Lord will be able to save you? That is salvation by works.
The WISE MAN who ACTS on His words/teachings....and whose house is built on the Rock and stands is 'descriptive' of believers.
The FOOLISH MAN who hears the words of Jesus and DOES NOT ACT on them whose house is built on the sand, and it fell is 'descriptive' of unbelievers/make believers. In context, Jesus mentions false prophets and contrasts good trees that bear good fruit with bad trees that bear bad fruit. (Matthew 7:15-27)
If one reads Romans 2:6-8 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scripture, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.
These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Your last sentence is why I will not respond to you.
You can go ahead and make up your own fantasies about what I may or may not believe.
And, I'll just add, that, apparently, you have not noticed posts where your above scenario is not correct.
Some live in sin,,,believing themselves to be saved.
Standard,,,,I'm going to address each of the verses you've posted.
Maybe, someday, you'll address mine....
Yours:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Yes sir. We most certainly are saved by faith.
But you've left our the very next verse. Perhaps you could address it in your next post to me?
Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
We are created FOR GOOD WORKS....
WE are God's hands and feet on this good earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galatians 2:21
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Yes sir. We most certainly are not under the Law.
Perhaps you're conflating the Law with good works which we are commanded to do?
I've given enough verses regarding this....to which you do not respond.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Paul is addressing the Gentiles re the Jews. They believed in following The Law.
Paul is speaking about the Law...NOT good works.
We can know this by reading just a few verses further down:
Romans 11:19-22
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Notice verse 22. IF you continue in the kindness of God OTHERWISE you too will be cut off.
It is possible to be cut off IF we do not continue in God's kindness.
Let's get this settled AGAIN Standard.
Because I have this problem with another member here.
We are speaking about SAVED PERSONS.
The unsaved do not need to obey God.
They are LOST.
We are saved by works AFTER we're saved.
Jesus taught us to do good works or we will be cut off.
Romans 3:23 states that says that we all have sinned.
That's all it says.
You're projecting your idea that we are not good enough into all your theology.
WE all know we're not good enough.
Could we get beyond that?
No sir.
It is OUR FAITH that saves.
After we're saved...
it is our obedience that saves us and keeps us IN CHRIST...ABIDING IN CHRIST.
I believe that you should attempt to explain back to me the scripture I've posted otherwise we're
just going in circles.
Yes.
IF we love God, we will keep His commandments.
We agree.
So then you understand that we're talking about saved persons.
It's saved persons that must keep God's commandments and obey Him and do the good works
God wants us to do.
So now we agree?
You said we will have a changed life and works.
Agreed.
Don't understand what you mean here.
Agreed.
Why not concentrate on the topic at hand instead.Oh, the IRONY.
Do YOU believe Peter was apostate?
No?
Then why bring him up in a conversation about loss of salvation.
Do YOU think Peter lost his salvation because he denied Jesus 3X out of fear?
Then YOU are the legalistic one...
not me.
No and no. I'm no legalist and also, I'm not the one who is obsessed with losing salvation
ATG
Your final question is near the epicenter of Christianity. That's because it interrogates the thin ice of most Protestant and Non-Denominational theology. It opens the door to "salvation without repentance or conversion." In this cold thin theological atmosphere there is the "just make a decision for Christ" guarantee of salvation. The eternal insurance policy that you get and do not have to pay for. This kind of "salvation" is free, also painless, invisible, momentary and invisible to everyone including yourself. It's like a paid up life insurance policy you did not have to buy so you keep it in a safe, just in case you ever need it. Nobody benefits from it but you. Nobody sees it but you. The natural result of this theology is the creation of invisible Christianity. We intuitively know that if we mixed 500 of this definition of Christian with 500 heathens, nobody could pick out the Christians by looking at their cell phones, check books, entertainment, families, marriages, politics, priorities or works if charity.
On the other hand we see a different picture of conversion in early Christianity. Jesus, Peter, John and Paul clearly communicate that walking in the light and repentance are required. That means an honest look at your life as you are now living it compared with the holiness God is calling you to. It means an honest intention and commitment to change. It means that before you come to beg at the foot of the cross, you commit to a real conversion of life. To those committed to that life change, we receive power from the Holy Spirit to help us achieve our new life. We are being called out of the world, out of selfishness, self-centeredness, self-righteousness, self-promotion and self-sufficiency. Paul instructs church leaders to council these kinds of Christians and if they will not stop their outwardly visible sinful lives, to remove them from the congregation of faith. Paul, when on trial for his life, described his ministry this way, "I openly proclaimed first to Damascus, then at Jerusalem, throughout Judea and to the gentiles that they should repent and turn to God, doing deeds and living lives consistent with repentance." Paul was also instrumental in establishing points of validation for our ongoing conversion. In 1st Corinthians he tells us that without love, (which he goes on to define beautifully) our claims of faith are just noise. In Galatians Paul further expands the criteria for saving faith by describing in clear terms the fruit that comes naturally to the faithful being converted. Jesus told us we can judge people by that fruit, as He will judge us. Read Matthew 25.
If "faith" as defined by Jesus, Peter, John and Paul is the question, then we are justified by their definitions of continuing repentance and deepening faith. If we mean faith and trust in any of our thousands of competing Christian dogmas, then no, unless of course we can be saved by faith in our dogmas. Is salvation the instant result accomplished by an agreement with a 60 second pulpit prayer? Not in the New Testament. Can we be justified by the kind of faith that is invisible, undisruptive, convenient and calls for no repentance or conversion? I think not. Everyone wants to be saved, but few are willing to be converted. "Fix my soul so after I die I go to heaven but leave my life alone. It is the only thing that is mine.
Your final question is near the epicenter of Christianity. That's because it interrogates the thin ice of most Protestant and Non-Denominational theology. It opens the door to "salvation without repentance or conversion." In this cold thin theological atmosphere there is the "just make a decision for Christ" guarantee of salvation. The eternal insurance policy that you get and do not have to pay for. This kind of "salvation" is free, also painless, invisible, momentary and invisible to everyone including yourself. It's like a paid up life insurance policy you did not have to buy so you keep it in a safe, just in case you ever need it. Nobody benefits from it but you. Nobody sees it but you. The natural result of this theology is the creation of invisible Christianity. We intuitively know that if we mixed 500 of this definition of Christian with 500 heathens, nobody could pick out the Christians by looking at their cell phones, check books, entertainment, families, marriages, politics, priorities or works if charity.
On the other hand we see a different picture of conversion in early Christianity. Jesus, Peter, John and Paul clearly communicate that walking in the light and repentance are required. That means an honest look at your life as you are now living it compared with the holiness God is calling you to. It means an honest intention and commitment to change. It means that before you come to beg at the foot of the cross, you commit to a real conversion of life. To those committed to that life change, we receive power from the Holy Spirit to help us achieve our new life. We are being called out of the world, out of selfishness, self-centeredness, self-righteousness, self-promotion and self-sufficiency. Paul instructs church leaders to council these kinds of Christians and if they will not stop their outwardly visible sinful lives, to remove them from the congregation of faith. Paul, when on trial for his life, described his ministry this way, "I openly proclaimed first to Damascus, then at Jerusalem, throughout Judea and to the gentiles that they should repent and turn to God, doing deeds and living lives consistent with repentance." Paul was also instrumental in establishing points of validation for our ongoing conversion. In 1st Corinthians he tells us that without love, (which he goes on to define beautifully) our claims of faith are just noise. In Galatians Paul further expands the criteria for saving faith by describing in clear terms the fruit that comes naturally to the faithful being converted. Jesus told us we can judge people by that fruit, as He will judge us. Read Matthew 25.
If "faith" as defined by Jesus, Peter, John and Paul is the question, then we are justified by their definitions of continuing repentance and deepening faith. If we mean faith and trust in any of our thousands of competing Christian dogmas, then no, unless of course we can be saved by faith in our dogmas. Is salvation the instant result accomplished by an agreement with a 60 second pulpit prayer? Not in the New Testament. Can we be justified by the kind of faith that is invisible, undisruptive, convenient and calls for no repentance or conversion? I think not. Everyone wants to be saved, but few are willing to be converted. "Fix my soul so after I die I go to heaven but leave my life alone. It is the only thing that is mine.
Still with the silly question.
Are you working your way up to the line of demarcation??
Jesus said we will be like the foolish man whose house fell when the storm came.
I don't plan on being like the foolish man.
You love the Greek.
In the Greek language to disobey means to disbelieve/to disbelieve means to disobey.
Same difference.
If we believe,
WE OBEY.
If we do NOT obey,,,it means we do NOT believe.
If we do NOT believe...it means we're lost.
Answered above.
We have the internet now...you could look this up.
And you know very weill, I've explained this MANY times and am tired of your copy and paste replies.
Kind of a word salad...
but
we do obey when we choose to believe.
And if we believe we must also obey.
No getting around it mailmandan.
John 3:36 is NOT the only verse in the NT that teaches that we must obey Jesus' words.
Must I post AGAIN Matthew 7:24-27 ??
I would suggest that we not be like the FOOLISH MAN.
Matthew 7:24-27
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."
Jesus taught that if we do not bear fruit...
we will be cut off from the vine.
The fine gives life...if we're cut off. we will be like the dead branches.
John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
TAKES AWAY means TAKES AWAY/CUT OFF as proven by verse 6.
So many different versions.
Unfortunately, there is NO version that states that we are not obligated to obey Jesus.
If you could find such a verse, please post it.
I'm not given to reply to silly questions.
Jesus said to satan:
YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.
Matthew 4:7
You put the Lord to the test with this question.
No line of demarcation.
God will not be mocked.
Galatians 6:4-9
4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
5 For each one will bear his own load.
6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever * a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
1 of 2
2 of 2
Where in Matthew 7:24-27 does it mention anything about BELIEVERS?
Jesus is stating exactly WHY one house will stand and one will fall.
One man ACTED on the words of Jesus.
One man DID NOT ACT on the words of Jesus.
THIS is all Jesus stated.
Let me reiterate once again:
UNBELIEVERS ARE NOT required to ACT on the words of Jesus.
THEY ARE LOST.
Believers are required to ACT ON THE WORDS OF JESUS....
to follow HIS teachings.
If we do NOT,,,,our house will fall because we did NOT ACT on His words.
Nothing come up when the cursor hovers over the blue and I don't have the bible memorized.
You mean, I believe, that Paul states that we will be judged by our deeds...be they good or bad.
It states this plainly.....
I think Paul knew how to express his thoughts.
And, just in case there's any doubt...
Paul DID teach what Jesus taught.
Here is what Jesus said:
John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Sounds exactly like Romans 2.6
Seems as though Paul learned from Jesus.
I'd tend to go with that.
I'd listen and HEAR what Jesus is teaching and I'd stop trying to explain it away.
I think explaining it away is dangerous to the health of our soul.
Where in Matthew 7:24-27 does it mention anything about BELIEVERS?
Jesus is stating exactly WHY one house will stand and one will fall.
One man ACTED on the words of Jesus.
One man DID NOT ACT on the words of Jesus.
THIS is all Jesus stated.
Let me reiterate once again:
UNBELIEVERS ARE NOT required to ACT on the words of Jesus.
THEY ARE LOST.
Believers are required to ACT ON THE WORDS OF JESUS....
to follow HIS teachings.
If we do NOT,,,,our house will fall because we did NOT ACT on His words.
I don't know what Romans 2:6-8 states.
Nothing come up when the cursor hovers over the blue and I don't have the bible memorized.
You mean, I believe, that Paul states that we will be judged by our deeds...be they good or bad.
It states this plainly.....
I think Paul knew how to express his thoughts.
And, just in case there's any doubt...
Paul DID teach what Jesus taught.
Here is what Jesus said:
John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Sounds exactly like Romans 2.6
Seems as though Paul learned from Jesus.
I'd say that if Jesus says we could lose our salvation...
I'd tend to go with that.
I'd listen and HEAR what Jesus is teaching and I'd stop trying to explain it away.
I think explaining it away is dangerous to the health of our soul.
Your interpretations are filtered through the lens of works salvation, self righteousness and self preservation.
So then why discuss Peter???
And maybe you should be a LITTLE BIT obsessed with losing salvation.
I sure have posted enough verses in these past years.
Those that fear loss
must have a reason.
I just don't know what it is.
Maybe.
Your interprestations are filtered through the lens of cheap grace, disobedience and depending of God to do everything for you.
You honestly cannot figure out that believers and unbelievers are contrasted throughout Matthew 7:15-27? In verse 23, Jesus said, I never knew you (which means they were never saved) depart from Me you who practice lawlessness. You call that believers? Are false prophets believers? (Matthew 7:15) Do bad trees that bear bad fruit represent believers? (Matthew 7:17-20) Works-salvationists seem to use term "believer" very loosely.
Only genuine believers do. Make believers do not.
Also see 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 in regard to being judged by our works.
Yes, Paul did teach what Jesus taught. In regard to John 5:28-29, Jesus is describing those who did good deeds (believers) and will receive a resurrection of life. Jesus is not saying that these believers were saved based on the merits of their good deeds. What did Jesus say was the basis or means of receiving eternal life in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? *Not good deeds. What did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9? *Not good deeds either. Jesus goes on to describe those who committed evil deeds (unbelievers) to a resurrection of judgment.
*We see the same descriptive language in Romans 2:5-8. These good deeds done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
Show me where Jesus used the words, "lose salvation." In John 6:37-40, Jesus said - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.