Loss of salvation???

[mailmandan]

You "answered" the question with a question, this is not sincere.

It wasn't even an answer.

It was a sincere answer. My point was that if people who allegedly sincerely confessed Christ as Lord but later rejected Him were not as sincere as you might have thought since they later rejected Him. Not rejecting Him later is proof of true sincerity.

 

[mailmandan]

In John 6:64, we read - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Hence, offended by Jesus' words, turned and walked with Him no more. Not truly committed to Jesus.

In John 8:31, we read - If you continue in My word, then you are truly My disciples. (NASB 1995) Those who continue in His word demonstrate they truly are disciples of Jesus. Those who do not continue demonstrate otherwise.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Magenta]

In John 6:64, we read - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Hence, offended by Jesus' words, turned and walked with Him no more. Not truly committed to Jesus.

In John 8:31, we read - If you continue in My word, then you are truly My disciples. (NASB 1995) Those who continue in His word demonstrate they truly are disciples of Jesus. Those who do not continue demonstrate otherwise.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

1 John 2 v 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

 

[studier]

You know what the aorist says, but you don't seem to know what it MEANS in this context. Paul has placed all the verbs in the aorist tense in order to group them all together in a tight grouping, which are to be considered as one act of the Holy Spirit.

This paraphrase captures Paul’s conviction: Whenever you were washed, you were also sanctified and justified in the name of our Lord Jesus through the Spirit of our God. Paul never separates these works. His point is that the Spirit’s cleansing is never a partial or isolated act. If the Holy Spirit has washed you, then in that same moment, He has also set you apart as holy and declared you righteous. There is no scenario in Paul’s mind where the Spirit grants one of these gifts without the others; the triad always arrives together as the unified work of God in Christ.

Paul intentionally stacks a series of aorist verbs in Romans 8:29–30 to make a single, unbroken argument: the God who foreknew is the same God who predestined, called, justified, and glorified. By placing all these actions in the same verbal frame, Paul is insisting that the entire sequence stands or falls together. There is no break in the chain, no point at which God’s purpose wavers or stalls. In Paul’s mind, you can draw a straight, unbroken line from “foreknown” all the way to “glorified.” And the rest of the chapter (vv. 31–39) is simply the emotional explosion of that logic: if God has already secured the end from the beginning, then nothing in heaven or on earth can sever the believer from the love of Christ.

Actually, I'm fully aware of the meaning of the verbs and of the context.

I'm also aware of the already & not yet eschatological structures of the Text and of some of the textual markers to look for that speak of some of them. There's no doubt God's Plan is set from beginning to end. But our discussion is how a believer who chooses he wants no further part of it fits in that Plan.

If we take the non-OSAS view from the evidence that seems to support it, then between the already and not yet can exist a departure from the faith that none of what your general overview says cannot take place.

The simple fact is that when I say what verbs tell us and don't tell us, all I get back is someone's overall theology to tell me I'm wrong. Also, I've been at this long enough to see when theological interpretations are being inserted into verb tenses and actually at times trying to make the verbs say exactly the opposite of what they say, or to insert into them what they do not say.

All you're giving me here, Roger, is theological theory, and you're smart enough to know there is a long history of opposition to these theories and for reasons down into the textual level I'm asking about.

 

[studier]

In John 6:64, we read - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Hence, offended by Jesus' words, turned and walked with Him no more. Not truly committed to Jesus.

In John 8:31, we read - If you continue in My word, then you are truly My disciples. (NASB 1995) Those who continue in His word demonstrate they truly are disciples of Jesus. Those who do not continue demonstrate otherwise.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

It seems clear that being a disciple does not necessarily mean being a believer.

 

[studier]

Do you understand what we mean by God is transcendent?

Do you know what it means to spell out your approach - your Crabtree theory?

 

[studier]

It would be nice if @studier would comment on Matthew 8:10-12.

Sorry, a little busy and distracted today. Just noticed verses 10-12 and that I earlier went through a few earlier verses.

 

[Toknow]

Sorry, a little busy and distracted today. Just noticed verses 10-12 and that I earlier went through a few earlier verses.

No problem.
Just got home and am very tired.
Haven't seen your other post yet.
Tomorrow.

 

[Toknow]

If you have no idea wouldn't it be better to wait until you know?

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

He speaks of those who have been born again, past tense. To those, He has reserved an inheritance, teaching that they are in fact kept - guarded - by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Does anyone think they are stronger than God, that any should subvert His protection of His children?

Who will receive this inheritance? Those who have been born again. If you have been born again, you will receive this inheritance, being guarded for it by God's power. Loss of salvation? Not if you are born again.

Much love!

Nice of you to help out markss.
But the other member has to explain WHO he is speaking about...
it's not up to ME to explain verses for him.

I believe I know who is being spoken of in every verse in the NT.

 

[Toknow]

Let's talk normal cases.

US A citizenship when you are born into it is not negotiable.
Yet, one can choose to be a bad citizen....
And be denied certain rights and privileges.

And, if need be?
Executed with capital punishment.

But they still remain a US citizen.

Under U.S. law, a citizen who is executed by the state via capital punishment retains their U.S. citizenship
up until the moment of death. Capital punishment is a penalty for a crime, not an act of denaturalization
or renunciation of citizenship.

So it is, when we become born again!

​

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ."​

Philippians 3:20​

​

grace and peace...

I just love analogies!

If you commit a capital crime,,
you might be put to death
EVEN IF you're a citizen.

or

You might end up spending your life in prison.

Both sound like hell.

 

[Toknow]

Do you understand what we mean by God is transcendent?

LOL
ONLY YOU know what it mans Roger316!

But I just got here....

and am now leaving.

 

[rogerg]

Nice of you to help out markss.
But the other member has to explain WHO he is speaking about...
it's not up to ME to explain verses for him.

I believe I know who is being spoken of in every verse in the NT.

Really? You might want to read 9002 which has been sitting there for hours.

 

[markss]

Nice of you to help out markss.
But the other member has to explain WHO he is speaking about...
it's not up to ME to explain verses for him.

I believe I know who is being spoken of in every verse in the NT.

Then you already know this. OK.

Much love!

 

[Lovette]

Let's talk normal cases.

US A citizenship when you are born into it is not negotiable.
Yet, one can choose to be a bad citizen....
And be denied certain rights and privileges.

And, if need be?
Executed with capital punishment.

But they still remain a US citizen.

Under U.S. law, a citizen who is executed by the state via capital punishment retains their U.S. citizenship
up until the moment of death. Capital punishment is a penalty for a crime, not an act of denaturalization
or renunciation of citizenship.

So it is, when we become born again!

​

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ."​

Philippians 3:20​

​

grace and peace...

That's right, God's covenant is eternal.

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.
But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’ ” (Lev. 26:44-45)

 

[FlyingDove]

That's not grammar and is theological bias.

The aorist in this case speaks of a completed action in the past and provides no guaranty of future condition.

The perfect in itself speaks of an action in the past with continuing results up to the point of the author's writing with no guaranty of future condition.

Positional Sanctification is a theological construct used to name a theological interpretation.

Studier, I sent you this direct C & P in post 3000

Topical Lexicon Meaning and Concept
Strong’s Greek 38 (ἁγιασμός) speaks of sanctification—a state of consecration brought about by God that issues in practical holiness of life. It embraces both the decisive setting-apart that occurs at conversion and the ongoing transformation that conforms believers to the image of Christ.

(MY NOTE: It embraces ""both"" ""the decisive setting-apart-POSIONAL that occurs at conversion"" ""and the """ongoing transformation""" > that conforms believers to the image of Christ.

CHRIST EMBODIES & SECURES EVERY STAGE OF SALVATION
Sanctification and Salvation’s Order Romans 6:19 and Romans 6:22 link sanctification to freedom from sin’s dominion.
Justification declares the believer righteous; sanctification makes that righteousness visible in conduct, anticipating glorification. 1 Corinthians 1:30 sets sanctification alongside righteousness and redemption, showing that Christ Himself embodies and secures every stage of salvation.

Summary: Strong’s 38 anchors the New Testament vision of a people set apart by God, progressively transformed by the Spirit, and destined for flawless holiness at Christ’s appearing. Sanctification is God’s will, Christ’s achievement, the Spirit’s work, the believer’s pursuit, the church’s mission, and the believer’s destiny.

(MY NOTE: the New Testament vision of a people set apart/POSIONAL by God, progressively transformed/ONGOING

Studier, ""The lexical definition of ἁγιασμός itself proves the 2 categories you're denying. Sanctification includes BOTH the decisive setting‑apart at conversion AND the ongoing transformation that follows. That's positional + progressive. I didn't import a system, I quoted Strong's.

Finally, 1 Cor 1:2 says they were sanctified in Christ Jesus (perfect tense - a completed action with ongoing results). That's not a fluctuating moral condition; that's an identity grounded in union with Christ. Debate over!

 

[Genez]

I just love analogies!

If you commit a capital crime,,
you might be put to death
EVEN IF you're a citizen.

or

You might end up spending your life in prison.

Both sound like hell.

Yes....

God will not be mocked.
He will make it Hell on earth while living - and supplying no dying grace, as they will die a miserable death.

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God ​

will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. ​

I am not saying that you should pray about that.​

​

1 John 5:16​

 

[Lovette]

So we could just stop at justification....

have no transformation in our lives....

we could just keep on living as before.....

and still be saved?

Coudl you post some scripture for this?

Jesus said that if we do not bear fruit,,,
we will be cut off.

See the following below and Deut. 28. There's a long list of blessings for obedience and curses for DISobedience, the consequence for "no transformation in our lives" is the curses for disobedience. The first passover in Exodus and the receiving of the law foreshadowed Justification on the cross and the rebirth in the Holy Spirit. As long as no Israelite was deported to Egypt, salvation cannot be lost. However, all of them who fled from Egypt died in the wilderness, their next generation reached the promised land, that symbolizes our sojourning in this mortal life as sinners, it is our born-again spiritual beings that will receive new bodies and live with Christ in the millennial kingdom.

But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them;
they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes.
Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.
But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’ ” (Lev. 26:40-45)

 

[Lovette]

You're entitled.
What would You say is the reason for the SONS OF THE KINGDOM to be kicked out?
Can a son be kicked out of heaven?

You are asking loaded questions. You can't be kicked out of heaven when you were not in there in the first place, because, as I pointed out, all went to the grave first.

I don't know what you mean by this.

I meant to retort, that Jesus alone ascended to heaven, nobody else did. We'll be "gathered to our people" after we breath our last. The heaven and hell dichotomy is conventional wisdom based on Dante's Divine Comedy, not scripture.

Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen. 25:8)
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Manwho is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13)

This is my understanding of sheoul.

In my understanding, the OT and NT are consistent, Sheol and Hades are the same underworld for the dead.

 

[Mem]

I'm just telling you what I see in verses.
Does Jesus telling us He won't force a man to leave mean he can't leave? The answer seems self-evident.

Jn 6 gives account of many disciples turning back and no longer walking with Jesus after hearing Jesus teach at the synagogue in Capernaum about His blood and His flesh, the Bread of Life. They said, "This is a difficult teaching (declarative statement). Who can accept it (rhetorical question)?" And Jesus answers with His own rhetorical question, being aware of their grumbling, "Does this offend you?" (Jn 6:60-61). And then my summary of Jesus' reiteration of the Father's will for those that believe and those that do not (Jn 6:64-65).
And Jn 6:66 shows those that "turned back and no longer walked with Him." I'm confident the deduction can be made that these heard Him 'in the flesh' which profits nothing.

Verse 67, "Then Jesus asked the twelve, "Do you want to leave too?"
and
Verse 68, "Simon Peter replied, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life." And it can be deducted that Peter heard "the words I have spoken to you are spirit of they are life."

And (my summary of Jesus' reply), 'This is exactly why I chose you, except, of course, for the one who doesn't believe.'

So, yes, technically, they weren't captives of Jesus and were free to go, but why would they if they believed Him in spirit and in truth?

And, after the event of Peter's denial? Why did Jesus (have to) direct the others, "Go and fetch Peter." Was it because Jesus was fully aware that Peter had no intention of coming on His own? The others would've retrieved Peter saying something like, "The Master has bid you to come with us, that you should return to Him." Imo, Peter must've had to muster up quite a bit of faith in order to return to Jesus, and perhaps Jesus call for him offered Him at least a mustard grains' measure to start out with. I can only imagine the inner conflict Peter must've been going through in returning to see Jesus again. And the ultimate comfort he received at the third time Jesus led him to say, "You know all things... You know I love you."
But Peter was hurt that Jesus asked him a third time. Might he have been hurt because he harbored the thought for even a second that Jesus didn't believe him? Personally, I think Jesus' intention in that was to work that doubt, that fear which Peter had previously demonstrated three times, out of him.

Then, Jesus told Peter what would happen to him. And what harder saying could Peter have heard other than that?
So,

 

[studier]

Studier, I sent you this direct C & P in post 3000

Topical Lexicon Meaning and Concept
Strong’s Greek 38 (ἁγιασμός) speaks of sanctification—a state of consecration brought about by God that issues in practical holiness of life. It embraces both the decisive setting-apart that occurs at conversion and the ongoing transformation that conforms believers to the image of Christ.

(MY NOTE: It embraces ""both"" ""the decisive setting-apart-POSIONAL that occurs at conversion"" ""and the """ongoing transformation""" > that conforms believers to the image of Christ.

CHRIST EMBODIES & SECURES EVERY STAGE OF SALVATION
Sanctification and Salvation’s Order Romans 6:19 and Romans 6:22 link sanctification to freedom from sin’s dominion.
Justification declares the believer righteous; sanctification makes that righteousness visible in conduct, anticipating glorification. 1 Corinthians 1:30 sets sanctification alongside righteousness and redemption, showing that Christ Himself embodies and secures every stage of salvation.

Summary: Strong’s 38 anchors the New Testament vision of a people set apart by God, progressively transformed by the Spirit, and destined for flawless holiness at Christ’s appearing. Sanctification is God’s will, Christ’s achievement, the Spirit’s work, the believer’s pursuit, the church’s mission, and the believer’s destiny.

(MY NOTE: the New Testament vision of a people set apart/POSIONAL by God, progressively transformed/ONGOING

Studier, ""The lexical definition of ἁγιασμός itself proves the 2 categories you're denying. Sanctification includes BOTH the decisive setting‑apart at conversion AND the ongoing transformation that follows. That's positional + progressive. I didn't import a system, I quoted Strong's.

Finally, 1 Cor 1:2 says they were sanctified in Christ Jesus (perfect tense - a completed action with ongoing results). That's not a fluctuating moral condition; that's an identity grounded in union with Christ. Debate over!

Just glancing through this, so if you think I'm missing something, maybe you can let me know in brief.

My initial response is that I do not get my understanding of biblical doctrines from Strong's or any theological dictionary. I use dictionaries and lexicons to get basic meanings of words, which I then consider if I'm going to track it through the Text to see if it makes sense to me in regard to how I see God using the word throughout His Word.