Once again volume = correct. Lol I disagree with you and can show why I have good reason to. It upsets you. I'm sorry about that.
Two category's that must be kept separate JUSTIFICATION - SANCTIFICATION
- Thread starter FlyingDove
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This doesn’t make any sense to me in any way to be honest so I. Can’t tell you what I think of what you’re saying . I don’t think I’m capable of communicating in this method lol
“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
…..This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”
Romans 2:5-11, 16 NIV
it’s like I’m quoting in invisible font
You just proved my point without realizing it. You dumped every verse in the Bible except the one where Jesus actually defines the will of the Father. None of your citations override Christ's own words. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus says entrance into the kingdom depends on doing the Father's will & then in John 6:40, defines that will as believing on the Son. You're trying to replace Jesus' definition with your own by dragging in judgment passages, sanctification passages & fruit passages that describe the life of the saved, not the means of salvation. That's category confusion at its worst.
Your misuse of Acts 10:34–35 collapses instantly when you actually follow the narrative. Cornelius feared God before Peter ever arrived (Acts 10:2, 22), yet the angel still said Peter would preach "words whereby you shall be saved" (Acts 11:14). Righteousness did not save him. What he lacked was the gospel. Acts 10 is the 1st Gentile entry into the New Covenant. Cornelius hears the gospel (Acts 10:36–43), believes & the Holy Spirit falls on him while hearing (10:44). No repentance formula, no circumcision, no water, no law > faith alone. Acts 10 is not salvation by works, it is the moment Gentiles are saved & it becomes the universal salvation formula today for both Jew & Gentile. Hear > Believe > & receiving the eternal life giving Holy Spirit.
Romans 2 doesn't save anyone. It condemns everyone! Acts 10 doesn't show salvation by works. It God fearing men still needed the gospel to be saved. John 5 is final judgment, where works reveal identity, not create it. Repentance is the inward turn TOWARDS God & faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ Acts 20:21) None of your verses redefine the will of the Father, they describe the evidence that follows it.
Jesus already settled the question: The will of the Father for salvation is believing in the Son. Everything else you quoted is the fruit of that belief & not the cause of salvation.
If you want to argue with that, you're not argument isn't with me. You're argument is with the One who said it.
Do you believe the Son when he says, "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heaven Father"?
Do you believe th Son here
John 6:52-58? I bet you'll tell me what Jesus "really" meant because he couldn't possibly mean what the words actually mean, right?
I would include what Paul states about those carnal, babes in Christ at Corinth. They are not in the process of being sanctified. They are sanctified. Yes?
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
JESUS filled HIS disciples, did HE fill you?
Acts 2:4
King James Version
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Are you a JESUS disciple?
If not why do you speak as thought you know about what the spirit does or doesn't do?
There is a perplexity, in the truth. Which only Father and risen Son can and does sort out for each person that decides to believe God
This is my story, this is my Song
God knows, knew I hated sin, even though I continued to sin. God took me in adopted me willing trains me and does do the same for you and everyone else in belief too. We grow in grace. Day one in beleif we are Justified by God. Then we grow new into maturity as in Hebrews 5:12-6:3 and forward, learning one thing at a time to keep from confusion.
Here is what happened! I began going to Church, years ago, not anymore on earth. now in Heaven Hebrews 8:1-4. I got put under Law to do or else attitude. I took that on to not do those things I saw to not do anymore. Lust(s) of in this world!, which made me worse at sinning then. Romans 7
I was under Law, I was guilty and proud. proud when I thought I got it, guilty when again I saw I do not have it as thought I did. So I tried harder per the religion I was in then. Trying to get more forgiveness. and could not, why? Because by God Father in God Son we all are forgiven at that cross, John 1:29, 19:30. To be received from Father first. Then one leaves sin behind them. begins new to do that over time in learning from mistakes people make.
Does that mean "I", "You" "others" will never sin anymore?????????????????? God forbid, If anyone else can keep from Son but Father and Son for them. Then one will not need God will they? 2 Cor 12:7-10 There is glorying in my iniquities and there is using my iniquities. Which is better to use or glory in God?
Is that you presently under Law, not wanting to sin again, Great, Hallelujah, then by God you will learn 2 Cor 12:7-10 and see to only give Father and Son the credit.
I see, hear you hate sin too. Great, love it. So Father in risen Son for you too, will train you new too. Not that I am perfect, I am not, God is and shares this righteousness with those that are sincere, as Farther will do with you as has been doing in keeping you in his love and mercy of Son for you to be new, see new and not be in pride anymore. Humility in thanksgiving and praise will lead
Working out our own salvation, seeing it is God that does it Roamsn 14:1-4 not anyone else.
Continue in believe it is finished being g under Law to walk new in the risen Son for you. To say thank you for Col 1:21-22, then no matter what continue in. trust to see it happen thorugh you, you not doing it, God for you doing it through you
If you sin you're separated from God. I know you people hate hearing that but it's true. Jesus death and resurrection makes salvation available not guaranteed. Some people seem to think they're entitled to salvation simply because they have faith but Scripture is painfully clear faith alone is not sufficient but as I've said many times I'm astounded at how much people are capable of ignoring
I disagree
Sin absolutely carries consequences in a believers life. Broken relationships, sickness, loss of joy, protection hedges removed etc. But none of those consequences include the loss of salvation. Scripture is clear that the only unforgivable sin is lifelong unbelief, dying without faith in Christ (Jn 8:24). Paul even says that where sin increases, grace SUPER ABOUNDS (Rom 5:20). God's grace is greater than any believer failure. Sin's penalty is death, but Christ has already borne that penalty once for all (Rom 6:23 & Heb 10:12–14).
A believer's sin can bring discipline & loss of heavenly reward (Heb 12:5–11 & 1 Cor 3:14–15), but it cannot undo the finished work of Christ or the eternal life He GIVES by grace. The love & grace of our great God & Savior far surpass the power of sin. Amen
You can't change recorded scripture: HOLY SPIRIT an ETERNAL LIFE SEALED GUARANTEE
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
(NOTE: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Also see Mat 3:11, Lk 3:16 & Jn 1:33)
2 Tim 1:14 Refers to the Holy Spirit as a Good Deposit.
2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14 & 2 Cor 1:22. Refer to the Holy Spirit as "the earnest" = Deposit or Pledge.
Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30 Refer to the Holy Spirit as a Seal.
2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's good deposit given us until the day of redemption)
2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
(NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. Earnest translated from the Greek word: arrabon. Also means a deposit/pledge. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring.")
2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a DEPOSIT/PLEDGE & SEAL, until the soon coming day of our final redemption)
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(NOTE: You heard about Christ's finished sin redemptive payment & resurrection. When you believed/trusted, Christ sealed/baptized you with His Holy Spirit).
Eph1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit by which only Christ baptizes/seals & indwells us. Is God's earnest = a down payment/pledge)
Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
(NOTE: Believers are SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. Christ's pledge/promise that he will come for us)
In regard to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, Jesus explains the sense of the entire passage when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63) As Jesus was accustomed, He used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths.
Jesus is not speaking of cannibalism here, but believing in Christ, as He makes abundantly clear by repeating the same truths both in metaphoric and plain language.
Compare for example the following verses:
John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.
“He who believes” in Christ is equivalent to “he who eats this bread” and the result is the same, eternal life.
The parallel is also seen in verses 40 and 54:
John 6:40 - Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6 does not support the false doctrine of transubstantiation. On the contrary, it is a statement on the primacy of faith as the means by which we receive the grace of God. Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him unto salvation.
Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.
The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
Yes, that's exactly right. Paul tells the Corinthians that even in their carnality, immaturity & messiness, they were already ""washed - sanctified & justified"" (1 Cor 6:11). That's positional truth, rooted in Christ's finished work, not in their level of spiritual growth.
Sanctification has 2 sides in Scripture. The positional reality God declares at conversion (set apart in Christ Jesus, 1 Cor 1:2) & the practical ongoing growth the Holy Spirit works out over time (1 Thes 4:3).
The Corinthians had the 1st fully & forever, even though the 2nd was barely underway. That's why Paul can call them ""sanctified & saints"" while also calling them ""babes in Christ."" Their behavior didn't define their standing. Christ did. And that's the whole point of keeping justification & sanctification in their proper categories. God's verdict is unchanging, while our growth is ongoing.
Justification means we can come to God just as we are, in any condition, because justification is by grace through faith and not by works.
But the same grace that forgives us also begins to transform us. God does not leave us in the bondage of sin but calls us into a life of holiness through the work of the Holy Spirit. Some people want forgiveness without repentance, but Jesus warned that people often love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil (John 3:19-21). Biblical salvation is not permission to remain in sin Heb10:26-30—it is deliverance from sin. Mat1:21
Scripture also teaches that believers are meant to grow spiritually. New believers begin with the “milk” of the Word, but they are expected to mature into “solid food.” Hebrews 5:12–14 says that solid food is for the mature who have trained themselves to discern good and evil. Likewise, 1 Corinthians 3:1–3 warns that remaining spiritually immature keeps believers in a fleshly state.
IOW, salvation begins with justification, but it should lead to growth, maturity, and a life increasingly shaped by holiness. I believe its a deception that we can remain in sin without a changed life and its all that is needed for salvation.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. So belief means more than I believe in His existence, it means a transformed life.
Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
There is too much preaching because we are not saved by works, therefore we don't have to obey God, but its just not biblical, God knows us by our fruit and if we are producing bad fruit we have not be transformed by the Holy Spirit. Bad fruit is rebellion, unbelief disobedience and sin all used interchangeable. Heb3:7-19
But the same grace that forgives us also begins to transform us. God does not leave us in the bondage of sin but calls us into a life of holiness through the work of the Holy Spirit. Some people want forgiveness without repentance, but Jesus warned that people often love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil (John 3:19-21). Biblical salvation is not permission to remain in sin Heb10:26-30—it is deliverance from sin. Mat1:21
Scripture also teaches that believers are meant to grow spiritually. New believers begin with the “milk” of the Word, but they are expected to mature into “solid food.” Hebrews 5:12–14 says that solid food is for the mature who have trained themselves to discern good and evil. Likewise, 1 Corinthians 3:1–3 warns that remaining spiritually immature keeps believers in a fleshly state.
IOW, salvation begins with justification, but it should lead to growth, maturity, and a life increasingly shaped by holiness. I believe its a deception that we can remain in sin without a changed life and its all that is needed for salvation.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. So belief means more than I believe in His existence, it means a transformed life.
Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
There is too much preaching because we are not saved by works, therefore we don't have to obey God, but its just not biblical, God knows us by our fruit and if we are producing bad fruit we have not be transformed by the Holy Spirit. Bad fruit is rebellion, unbelief disobedience and sin all used interchangeable. Heb3:7-19
Often I encounter this claim that Christ saves by faith, but then the believer must perform, maintain & preserve what God has already declared finished. Scripture presents Christ, not the believer, as the One who ""saves to the uttermost"" (Heb 7:25). When we shift the weight of salvation back onto human effort, Christ becomes a side note instead of the Savior.
The New Testament insists that Christ is preeminent in all things (Col 1:18). He is preeminent in creation (Jn 1:3,10, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6), in redemption (Gal 3:13, Rev 5:9, Col 1:14, Rom 3:24), in resurrection (Jn 11:25, Acts 4:33, 1 Pet 1:3,21) & in mediation (1 Tim 2:5, Heb 8:6, 9:15, 12:24). He is the center, the beginning & the end. Salvation is His work from start & He performs, maintains & preserves to finish.
Scripture is honest about the reality of sin in a believer's life. Sin can bring painful consequences: broken relationships, loss of joy, discipline, even the removal of protective hedges. It can affect heavenly reward (Heb 12:5–11 & 1 Cor 3:8–14). But none of those consequences include the loss of salvation (1 Cor 3:15). Jesus Himself taught that the only unforgivable sin is dying in unbelief (Jn 8:24). A believer's sin can wound fellowship, but it cannot undo the eternal life Christ gives at conversion. We are saved by grace through faith, ""not of works,"" & not maintained by our works (Eph 2:8–9).
Romans 5:20 declares that where sin increases, grace super abounds. God's grace is greater than any believer's failure. The penalty of sin is death, but Christ bore that penalty once for all (Rom 6:23 & Heb 10:12–14). The love, grace & mercy of our great God & Savior far surpass the power of sin.
Scripture also reminds us that Jesus is the final Judge: The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (Jn 5:22). And the Judge is also our Advocate: If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 Jn 2:1). When your Attorney is the Judge. The sin verdict for the believer is: NOT GUILTY!
Many Christians live under a cloud of self condemnation, holding a mirror up to every failure. But Scripture speaks plainly: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1). Trusting Christ produces joy, not doom; confidence, not fear, worship, not anxiety.
The New Testament consistently presents the believer's standing as PERMANENT & ""God secured"". Jesus promises the Holy Spirit will abide with believers FOREVER (Jn 14:16). Paul says we are SEALED until the day of redemption (Eph 1:13–14; 4:30), given the Spirit as God's GRARANTEE (2 Cor 1:22; 5:5). ""Christ has obtained eternal redemption"" (Heb 9:12) & ""perfected forever those He sanctifies"" (Heb 10:14). These are not conditional or probationary terms. If ""eternal redemption"" can be undone, it was never eternal. If the Holy Spirit's SEAL can be broken when one fails, then He word can be broken & He promise it does not last ""until the day of redemption."" If Christ ""perfected forever those He sanctifies"", then ""forever"" cannot mean ""until they stumble""
Paul summarizes the gospel: By the obedience of One shall many be made righteous (Rom 5:19). Salvation rests on His obedience, not ours. We must get over ourselves & stop making salvation about us.
Jesus, our great God & Savior is the Faithful One. He saves to the uttermost because He always lives to intercede (Heb 7:25). He is the faithful witness (Rev 1:5). The Amen, the faithful & true witness (Rev 3:14). The One whose very name is Faithful & True (Rev 19:11). He is faithful & just to forgive (1 Jn 1:9). The Lord is faithful, ""He will establish & guard His people"" (2 Thes 3:3). No one can snatch a believer His from His hand (Jn 10:28–29). He is with His people always, even to the end of the age (Matt 28:20).
Christ is the center. Christ is the keeper. Christ is the beginning & the end & the Faithful One has promised: I will never leave you nor forsake you (Heb 13:5; Deut 31:6,8). Maranatha
When the LORD tells us to join ourselves to Him Isa56:6 because He wants to do the blessing Isa56:2 and the sanctification Eze20:12 for us, because we can't do this ourselves Isa66:17 God says to rest, working on the day God said to rest is works, not faith. You seem to have this very backwards.
Amen! Which is why I keep recommending to follow in His works and not depend on our own.
Is sin up to what we feel is right or wrong or up to God? This is the center of the whole issue. Man has taken the authority away from God on what He deems is righteousness (right-doing) Psa119:172 Isa56:1-2 and takes it upon themselves to define sin and right-doing and essentially and sadly making themselves their own god.
Yes, but Paul also says we must die daily of sin and sin should no longer have dominion over us, and if we are in Christ we are walking in a new direction. If we are continuing in sin, which Paul did not make the mistake not to allow God to define quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Rom7:7 so continuing in sin without thinking we are sinning shows our heart has not been truly converted. When we remove a jot or tittle from the law of God, it does not remove its penalty Rom6:23 all it does is covers ones sin Pro28:13 which is not a good spot to be in come judgement day Heb10:26-30
Jesus is our Judge, we do not judge ourselves, He says there are many who will say Lord Lord and He will say depart from me because they were never really transformed. He gave us a test.....
The Test of Knowing Him
1 John2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
So its important not to live our life the way we feel is right but one what God deems as right doing because His is everlasting Psa119:142 meaning it never changes Psa119:172 Isa 56:1-2 its the foundation of His Throne Psa89:14
God knows who joins Himself to Him and knows the wheat from the tares, there is nothing any of us can hide from Him Ecc12:13-14 Rev14:6-12
Judgement is not arbitrary He tells us what He judges us by Ecc12:13-14 Mat5:19-30 John12:48 James2:11
Please read the entire post response before responding to me in any thought that takes place while reading, pleas read it all first thank you
The entire salvation is a gift from Father by through risen Son. The death was the reconciliation first. as Jesus proclaimed "it is finished " John 19:30 Then the risen Life, where the new life resides.
What is finished ? Under Law to attain perfection is finished, not one other person could ever do it perfect, but Son. Jesus did it, it is done once for Everyone to beleive it or not, between God and you personally. You are trying to be perfect, I thank you for wanting this. Yet repenting over and over again and again. How you doing in that? 2 Cor 10:5-6, So you perfect yet? Neither is anyone else but Father and Son for us.
It is not about taking this given truth freedom for granted, as the Corinthians did, until they heard the letter written to them from Paul. then they sincerely repented as said in 2 Cor 7. Still not perfect, yet stopped harming others to their own self gain as did harm others without a care at first. As many today are still doing this using the Gospel for self gain! Are you? Out for self and those you only choose to love?. Accusing, excusing and end up abusing and not seeing it. What did King David repent of? 2 Samuel 12? A man after God's own heart!
Do you have others you hate over stuff they did wrong to you and or others you love? Then, you do not get this reconciliation, you are not willingly dead to self or others you love, hating others over it, as if you are right and the others are wrong, according to the place of worship you attend maybe?. The true church is in Heaven and it is the called The Ecclesia, not the Church as is Called, by human flesh today on earth. Hebrews 8:1-4 is the true
Ecclesia, in Heaven, where we are at in Father's Spirit and Truth for us. Those that Father reveals this to, and Daddy will, to each in the time allotted or them to see its truth, then thanking Father won't stop.
Done first ( by his willing death, 2 Cor 5:17-21, reconciliation) through Son. that was the first thing that had to be done was reconciliation to all mankind, All mankind includes female. Then the resurrected Son for us to be new. Daddy, given this a gift from Father, thanks to the done work of Son for us all, to believe, receive and be new in love and mercy to all. John 13:34
After Son was risen from the dead and seen by the disciples and over 500 witnesses. The new life is in the resurrected Son raised to life by Father for us all to stop and see new, in love and mercy to all too. Thus one does the new given them by Father without taking any credit to self at all. If Father, Dad, PaPa, does not get all the credit, then the work done is of flesh. And no flesh after Son's flesh pleased God can ever please God. No other flesh will Romans 8:1-3
Rom2:1-4 Stop accusing, excusing and abusing each other
See it is Father that teaches , not people, even though people do that and yet do not see truth over error here in this world still. People usually are out for self gain here on earth, which is not a well thing for my soul ever. 1 John 2:27
thanks love and mercy to all from Father and Son as Won for us all
Yes, the battle between living in the flesh and living in the Spirit. Paul made it clear those who are living in the flesh and not by Spirit are those who will not subject themselves to the law of God
Rom8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life (Mat19:17-19 Rev14:12) and peace (Psa119:165 Isa 48:18). 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Its a great deception to claim the name of God while not subjecting oneself to the law of God. This sounds good in theory but Jesus tells us a head of time where that path leads to Mat7:23 Heb10:26-30 Mat15:3-14 Mat5:19-30
For the saved, but God decides that not us. Only He knows the wheat from the tares. He tells us how to be saved, but not everyone wants to give up win John3:19-21 while professing the name of God.
I think you have some misunderstandings of Scripture. Because of Christ's obedience He conquered sin and death and through Him we can too John14:15-18, but that does not mean because Jesus was victorious we can go commit murder or adultery or break the least of these commandments and be saved without repenting and turning from sin.
There is no Scripture that ways we can be disobedient to God and be saved so not sure where you're getting that from.
Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him
Heb10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
So while it may sound good to the ears that Jesus is going to obey for us so we don't have to, its a very deceptive doctrine.
Agree. God created us a head of time to do good works so we should walk in them
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
And what are God's good works that we should walk in:
Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.
The Ten Commandments, the ones where God Himself wrote and tells us how to love Him and mankind.
The problem is not the works that God made for us to walk in, it is our harden heart where we tell God, no but I am going to depend on my own works of righteousness instead of God's. Psa119:172
Why we are told to Remember His, because His saves ours does not.
Psa 78:7 That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments;
Rev 2:26And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations
Amen!
Yes, but if Christ is our center why would we not want to do what He asks if we love Him Exo20:6 John14:15 without love what do we have? Nothing.
For anyone following this thread, Jesus Himself warned that the New Covenant cannot be poured into Old Covenant wineskins (Matt 9:16–17), yet that is exactly how SabbathBlessing has framed his entire reply. Jesus said the Law & the Prophets ended with John the Baptist (Lk 16:16), marking a covenantal shift that the apostles later affirmed publicly in Acts 15, where they ruled that placing the Sinai law on believers ""troubles"" & ""subverts their souls"" (Acts 15:24), that the law was a yoke no one could bear (Acts 15:10) & that salvation is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, not through Moses (Acts 15:11).
Paul then applies that ruling with full apostolic force in Gal 5, declaring that anyone who makes law keeping a condition for salvation has ""fallen from grace"" (Gal 5:4), that Christ becomes ""of no benefit"" to them (Gal 5:2) & that mixing law with grace is a different gospel (Gal 1:6–9).
In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul goes even further: he calls the very tablets engraved by God's finger ""the ministry of death"" (2 Cor 3:7) & that the New Covenant is the ministry of the Holy Spirit, not the ministry of stone/law (2 Cor 3:6–8). So when someone tries to make Sinai covenant rules the structure of salvation, they're not defending Scripture, they're rejecting Jesus' warning, overturning the apostles' ruling & placing themselves on the wrong side of the very gospel the New Testament defends. The New Covenant runs on the Holy Spirit, not the tablets of stone/law.
Jesus warned not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments Mat5:19-30 and when we lay aside the commandment of God again quoting from the Ten Commandments makes ones heart far from Him Mat15:3-14 so we can't make one teaching of Jesus contradict another one.
You're taking this verse out of its context. This is not about all prophets and the law of God ending. Jesus made that plain in literally the next verse
Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
Heaven and earth are still here, so is God's law.
This passage is about the prediction of Jesus coming - why it was until John. What happened after John the Baptist? Jesus came and started preaching the gospel
Repent (from sin) for the Kingdom of God is at hand Mat4:17
The law Paul is speaking of is found in the very first verse
Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Not of any of the commandments of God, as if only worshipping God, or using His name in a holy way, not murdering our neighbor, is a "yoke of bondage"
What this is really saying that the works of God Exo32:16 the Ten Commandments, written by God, God's Testimony Exo31:18 is bondage and bad works. People do not really understand what they are saying and why reading Scripture in context is so important.
So the law Paul is speaking about is the law of God that God wrote with His finger that starts with only worship Him and in doing so, one will fall from grace?
This is not at all what Paul is saying- I can't help but wonder if Scripture is really being studied or just looking at verses in isolation to make a narrative.
In this same passage Paul says this...
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul is not speaking about the Ten Commandments as the law if keeping one falls from grace. This is actually a very sad teaching because its not just an attack on the law, but the law Giver who said for those who love Me, keep My commandments Exo20:6 John14:15
What Paul is correcting and did in Galatians if reading in context Gal3:2 same with Acts Acts 15:1 was the system of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins to be saved after Jesus died on the Cross who removed the wall of separation of circumcision with His death. Now no longer needed to be circumcised to gain access to the cure for sin by going to an earthy temple, to an earthy priest with an animal that could never really remove sin Heb10:1-10 this is what Paul was correcting. This was after the death of Christ and in doing so, makes His death in vain.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Paul was never teaching people to sin by breaking the law of God and now its okay to worship other gods, use His name in vain, bow to idols, break His holy Sabbath, dishonor our parents, murder, steal ,lie. I am not sure if people even think a moment about what they are teachings.
We really should be careful using Paul out of context to teach against the commandments of God. He would be horrified what people have done to His writings- He made it clear breaking the Ten Commandments is sin Rom7:7 dishonoring God Rom2:21-23, makes one an enmity against God Rom8:7-8 and one ends up outside of heaven Gal5:19-21 just as Jesus taught Mat7:21-23 Heb10:26-30
2Cor3:7 is speaking of the ministration, the wages of sin is death Rom6:23 so quite plainly by this passage 2Cor3:7 we know breaking the Ten Commandments is sin. There is no death penalty for keeping the Ten Commandments, only for breaking them. Jesus now ministers from a heavenly Temple, where there is still the Ten Commandments under His mercy seat Exo25:21 Exo31:18 Deut 4:13 Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 or atonement seat. The law itself was never the issue, the law is perfect Psa19:7 holy, just and good Rom7:12 the issue is our sinful flesh that makes one not subject to the law of God Rom8:7-8. If we are under the ministry of the Spirit and are connected to Christ, there is no condemnation because we are keeping the commandments through our love, faith and the power of the Holy Spirit John14:15-18 Rom8:4 John15:10 its when we take our eyes off Jesus and start depending on self, we will fail every time.
Paul very plainly said the Ten Commandments went from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 just as God said "His laws" that only He can define now written in the mind so we know and do them, written in the heart because we want to do them because we love Him Heb8:10 and enabled to keep though the power of the Holy Spirit if we love Him John14:15-18 and cooperate with Him, sadly not everyone does Rom8:7-8