Two category's that must be kept separate JUSTIFICATION - SANCTIFICATION

[FlyingDove]

Volume=correct. ^^^^^ Faulty premise faulty outcome.

^^^^^2 Peter 2:16^^^^^

 

[mailmandan]

That's right he wasnt but his words are his words. You've decided he can't mean what she says not me. Paul also tells you that Jesus meant what he said but you ignore that too. If you don't listen to either of them you sure as heck won't listen to me. Have you ever noticed how you folks spend more time trying to explain away things rather than just believing things. It's so fascinating how I always hear from you people that the words in Scripture only mean what you tell me they mean and do so with no evidence that your understanding of Scripture is authoritative.

You insist we do WHAT JESUS SAID then let's quote Him exactly. At the table, Jesus did not hand anyone His literal flesh or His literal blood. He took bread, broke it, and SAID TAKE THIS BREAD AND EAT.

Then He took the Passover cup (which by Jewish law was wine Genesis 14:18, Deuteronomy 14:23, Numbers 15:5,7, 28:16-24) and SAID TAKE THIS WINE AND DRINK.

Only after TELLING them to EAT BREAD and DRINK WINE. Jesus TELLS them what those elements represented: This is My body-this is My blood of the covenant.

Jesus NEVER SAYS: Eat My literal flesh. Drink My literal blood. The Torah strictly prohibits consuming blood, stating, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (Leviticus 17:10-14).

Jesus' command in John 6:53 to "eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood" created significant controversy, as it directly conflicted with established dietary laws. Hence, this is a hard saying.

If we're sticking to WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY SAID. Jesus Himself tells you the action (eat bread, drink wine) and the meaning (My body, My blood). That's representation and not transubstantiation.

 

[Nedsk]

You insist we do WHAT JESUS SAID then let's quote Him exactly. At the table, Jesus did not hand anyone His literal flesh or His literal blood. He took bread, broke it, and SAID TAKE THIS BREAD AND EAT.

Then He took the Passover cup (which by Jewish law was wine Genesis 14:18, Deuteronomy 14:23, Numbers 15:5,7, 28:16-24) and SAID TAKE THIS WINE AND DRINK.

Only after TELLING them to EAT BREAD and DRINK WINE. Jesus TELLS them what those elements represented: This is My body-this is My blood of the covenant.

Jesus NEVER SAYS: Eat My literal flesh. Drink My literal blood. The Torah strictly prohibits consuming blood, stating, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (Leviticus 17:10-14).

Jesus' command in John 6:53 to "eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood" created significant controversy, as it directly conflicted with established dietary laws. Hence, this is a hard saying.

If we're sticking to WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY SAID. Jesus Himself tells you the action (eat bread, drink wine) and the meaning (My body, My blood). That's representation and not transubstantiation.

Everybody knew Jesus was speaking literally because there is no reason to be shocked by figurative/ symbolic to language. The amount of stuff you people can ignore would be considered glutinous if that amount was food.

 

[mailmandan]

Everybody knew Jesus was speaking literally because there is no reason to be shocked by figurative/symbolic to language. The amount of stuff you people can ignore would be considered glutinous if that amount was food.

The people who Jesus was speaking to (Israelites) were shocked because they thought He was talking about cannibalism, contrary to the Torah which strictly prohibits consuming blood, stating, "the life of the flesh is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:10-14)

 

[GWH]

No one in that exchange in john 6 after verse 51 thinks Jesus is speaking figuratively/symbolically. He was before the but definitely not after. Jesus triples down on the literal language

Just how do you literally eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood?
The RC transubstantiation doctrine is nonsense!
No, Jesus did NOT mean that (cf. Matt. 16:6-12).

 

[Watchman22]

Justification is God's once‑for‑all verdict grounded in Savior' sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection, received by faith apart from works.

Sanctification is the Holy Spirit's ongoing work within us (Eph 2:10).

Paul makes this distinction explicit: To the one who does not work but believes, his faith is ""counted as righteousness."" (Rom 4:5). David describes the blessedness of the man to whom God ""imputes righteousness apart from works"". (Rom 4:6). Blessed is the man to whom ""the Lord will not impute sin."" (Rom 4:8).

These are courtroom terms: counting, crediting, not imputing & not transformative actions.

The question what if someone murders or commits murder or adultery? Murder and adultery are sins of the flesh: serious, destructive, subject to discipline, but they do not undo the cross, void sin imputation, or un‑crucify Christ.

A believer who falls into serious sin faces consequences: discipline, loss of fellowship, loss of reward. But not loss of justification (1 Cor 3:8-15). If justification depended on moral performance, then righteousness would come through the law, & Paul says plainly, If righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing. The root is faith in Christ's finished work (Justification) & the fruit is Holy Spirit lead ongoing works of obedience (Sanctification). Confusing the two always leads back to a works‑based-salvation.

Justification = positional, legal, unchanging. GOD ""judicially declares"" the ungodly righteous on the basis of faith in Christ' finished work (Rom 4:5). It never increases, decreases, or fluctuates.

Sanctification = practical state, transformational, ongoing. The Spirit conforms you to Christ in your daily life (Rom 8:12–14 & Gal 5:16–25). It grows, matures, struggles, advances & continues until glorification.

When those categories stay where Scripture puts them, everything harmonizes.

Justification = A state of being in Christ, where wr are seen as just like Christ.

Sanctification = A state of being in Christ, where we are separated from our sinful natures.

 

[hornetguy]

Moral free will; Lord Jesus Christ.

It would help if you just typed it out, instead of doing cryptic abbreviations, making us all guess what you say...
But you do you....

 

[FlyingDove]

Justification = A state of being in Christ, where wr are seen as just like Christ.

Sanctification = A state of being in Christ, where we are separated from our sinful natures.

What you've written sounds devotional, but it collapses the very categories Scripture keeps distinct.

You said: Justification = A state of being in Christ, where we are seen as just like Christ.

Justification IS NOT a state of being. Justification is when a Sovereign God judicially declares you righteous based on faith placed in Jesus once‑for‑all sin atoning payment & resurrection, an eternal life declaration. Rom 5:1 Having BEEN justified by faith, we have peace with God. That's why Paul uses courtroom terms: counted, credited, imputed (Rom 4:5–8).

You said: Sanctification = A state of being in Christ, where we are separated from our sinful natures.

Sanctification DOES NOT separated anyone from their sinful nature. Sanctification = Set apart by God for sacred services, the new indwelling Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. Now you are no longer under sins dominion & the Holy Spirit helps lead you to grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Sin struggles still remain: The flesh lusts against the Spirit (Gal 5:17). I see another law in my members warring against my mind (Rom 7:23) etc.

Your definitions blur the line Scripture keeps sharp. If justification = a state of being in Christ & sanctification = a state of being in Christ. The categories collapse into one thing.

But Paul refuses to collapse them: Justification = God's unchanging verdict. Sanctification = the Holy Spirit's ongoing work. One is finished & the other is lifelong.

Blending them always leads back to a works‑shaped gospel where the justification verdict depends on the believer's progress.

The biblical categories remain clean: Justification = God's once‑for‑all legal declaration, based on Christ's faithful obedient, blood sacrifice & resurrection. Received by faith apart from works & it never fluctuates.

Sanctification = The Holy Spirit's ongoing work in the believer, growth, struggle, maturity, transformation that continues until glorification


SANTIFICATION DEFINITION

KJV Dictionary Definition: SANC'TIFIED1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services. 2. Affectedly holy.

SANC'TIFIER, n. He that sanctifies or makes holy. In theology, the Holy Spirit is, by way of eminence, denominated the Sanctifier.

SANC'TIFY, v.t. Low L. sanctifico; from sanctus, holy, and facio, to make.

1. In a general sense, to cleanse, purify or make holy. 2. To separate, set apart or appoint to a holy, sacred or religious use.

NOTE: Sanctified means to made holy & the Holy Spirit alone is the Sanctifier, therefore works don't/can't maintain salvation, because claiming they do makes you & not the Holy Spirit, the one who keeps you holy.

JUSTIFICATIOM DEFINITION
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: [ A-1,Noun,G1347, dikaiosis ] - Justification,
denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" "to justify" it is used twice in the Ep. to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt.

In Romans 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart.

Works based salvation collapse right here > Justification = POSITIONAL announcement decreed by a sovereign creator God a judicial declaration.

Romans 3:24, Justified freely by His grace through Christ.
Romans 3:26, God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:28, A person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 3:30, God justifies Jew & Gentile through faith.
Romans 4:5, God justifies the ungodly; faith is counted as righteousness.
Romans 4:6, Righteousness is imputed apart from works.
Romans 4:16, The promise is by faith, so it may be by grace.
Romans 5:1, Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.

 

[Watchman22]

What you've written sounds devotional, but it collapses the very categories Scripture keeps distinct.

You said: Justification = A state of being in Christ, where we are seen as just like Christ.

Justification IS NOT a state of being. Justification is when a Sovereign God judicially declares you righteous based on faith placed in Jesus once‑for‑all sin atoning payment & resurrection, an eternal life declaration. Rom 5:1 Having BEEN justified by faith, we have peace with God. That's why Paul uses courtroom terms: counted, credited, imputed (Rom 4:5–8).

You said: Sanctification = A state of being in Christ, where we are separated from our sinful natures.

Sanctification DOES NOT separated anyone from their sinful nature. Sanctification = Set apart by God for sacred services, the new indwelling Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. Now you are no longer under sins dominion & the Holy Spirit helps lead you to grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Sin struggles still remain: The flesh lusts against the Spirit (Gal 5:17). I see another law in my members warring against my mind (Rom 7:23) etc.

Your definitions blur the line Scripture keeps sharp. If justification = a state of being in Christ & sanctification = a state of being in Christ. The categories collapse into one thing.

But Paul refuses to collapse them: Justification = God's unchanging verdict. Sanctification = the Holy Spirit's ongoing work. One is finished & the other is lifelong.

Blending them always leads back to a works‑shaped gospel where the justification verdict depends on the believer's progress.

The biblical categories remain clean: Justification = God's once‑for‑all legal declaration, based on Christ's faithful obedient, blood sacrifice & resurrection. Received by faith apart from works & it never fluctuates.

Sanctification = The Holy Spirit's ongoing work in the believer, growth, struggle, maturity, transformation that continues until glorification


SANTIFICATION DEFINITION

KJV Dictionary Definition: SANC'TIFIED1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services. 2. Affectedly holy.

SANC'TIFIER, n. He that sanctifies or makes holy. In theology, the Holy Spirit is, by way of eminence, denominated the Sanctifier.

SANC'TIFY, v.t. Low L. sanctifico; from sanctus, holy, and facio, to make.

1. In a general sense, to cleanse, purify or make holy. 2. To separate, set apart or appoint to a holy, sacred or religious use.

NOTE: Sanctified means to made holy & the Holy Spirit alone is the Sanctifier, therefore works don't/can't maintain salvation, because claiming they do makes you & not the Holy Spirit, the one who keeps you holy.

JUSTIFICATIOM DEFINITION
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: [ A-1,Noun,G1347, dikaiosis ] - Justification,
denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" "to justify" it is used twice in the Ep. to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt.

In Romans 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart.

Works based salvation collapse right here > Justification = POSITIONAL announcement decreed by a sovereign creator God a judicial declaration.

Romans 3:24, Justified freely by His grace through Christ.
Romans 3:26, God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:28, A person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 3:30, God justifies Jew & Gentile through faith.
Romans 4:5, God justifies the ungodly; faith is counted as righteousness.
Romans 4:6, Righteousness is imputed apart from works.
Romans 4:16, The promise is by faith, so it may be by grace.
Romans 5:1, Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.

I think your complicating something simple.

Paul describes the perfect description of sanctification in Rom. 7: 14 -21.

 

[Watchman22]

Justification = A state of being in Christ, where wr are seen as just like Christ.

Sanctification = A state of being in Christ, where we are separated from our sinful natures.

These are exact understandings of justification and sanctification.
It's not open for debate.

 

[FlyingDove]

These definitions are open for debate-because Scripture defines them.

Justification is when a Sovereign God judicially declares you righteous based on faith placed in Jesus once‑for‑all sin atoning payment & resurrection, an eternal life declaration. Rom 5:1 Having BEEN justified by faith, we have peace with God. That's why Paul uses courtroom terms: counted, credited, imputed (Rom 4:5–8).

Sanctification DOES NOT separated anyone from their sinful nature. Sanctification = Set apart by God for sacred services, the new indwelling Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. Now you are no longer under sins dominion & the Holy Spirit helps lead you to grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Sin struggles still remain: The flesh lusts against the Spirit (Gal 5:17). I see another law in my members warring against my mind (Rom 7:23) etc.

Your definitions blur the line Scripture keeps sharp. If justification = a state of being in Christ & sanctification = a state of being in Christ. The categories collapse into one thing.

But Paul refuses to collapse them: Justification = God's unchanging verdict. Sanctification = the Holy Spirit's ongoing work. One is finished & the other is lifelong.

Blending them always leads back to a works‑shaped gospel where the justification verdict depends on the believer's progress.

The biblical categories remain clean: Justification = God's once‑for‑all legal declaration, based on Christ's faithful obedient, blood sacrifice & resurrection. Received by faith apart from works & it never fluctuates.

Sanctification = The Holy Spirit's ongoing work in the believer, growth, struggle, maturity, transformation that continues until glorification


SANTIFICATION DEFINITION

KJV Dictionary Definition: SANC'TIFIED1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services. 2. Affectedly holy.

SANC'TIFIER, n. He that sanctifies or makes holy. In theology, the Holy Spirit is, by way of eminence, denominated the Sanctifier.

SANC'TIFY, v.t. Low L. sanctifico; from sanctus, holy, and facio, to make.

1. In a general sense, to cleanse, purify or make holy. 2. To separate, set apart or appoint to a holy, sacred or religious use.

NOTE: Sanctified means to made holy & the Holy Spirit alone is the Sanctifier, therefore works don't/can't maintain salvation, because claiming they do makes you & not the Holy Spirit, the one who keeps you holy.

JUSTIFICATIOM DEFINITION
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: [ A-1,Noun,G1347, dikaiosis ] - Justification,
denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" "to justify" it is used twice in the Ep. to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt.

In Romans 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart.

Works based salvation collapse right here > Justification = POSITIONAL announcement decreed by a sovereign creator God a judicial declaration.

Romans 3:24, Justified freely by His grace through Christ.
Romans 3:26, God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:28, A person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 3:30, God justifies Jew & Gentile through faith.
Romans 4:5, God justifies the ungodly; faith is counted as righteousness.
Romans 4:6, Righteousness is imputed apart from works.
Romans 4:16, The promise is by faith, so it may be by grace.
Romans 5:1, Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.

 

[GWH]

Justification = A state of being in Christ, where wr are seen as just like Christ.

Sanctification = A state of being in Christ, where we are separated from our sinful natures.

I prefer the following wording of the definitions:

Justification = A state of being in Christ, where we are seen by God as sharing the righteousness of Christ (Rom. 3:21-5:1).

Sanctification = A state of being in Christ, where we our human nature is cured of sinful desires (Gen. 1:31, Matt. 13:15).

 

[GWH]

It would help if you just typed it out, instead of doing cryptic abbreviations, making us all guess what you say...
But you do you....

I encourage everyone who posts as much as I do to learn abbreviations for terms used frequently, including:

GW = God’s Word (Scripture),
OT = Old Testament (Covenant),
NT = New Testament,
HS = Holy Spirit,
JC = Jesus Christ (or Christ Jesus),
TOJ = teachings of Jesus,
TOP = teachings of Paul (& Peter),
GRFS = God’s requirement for salvation,
KOTH = king of the hill (struggle),
PP = propensity principle (logical reasons to believe in God),
UMI = universal moral imperative (God’s will),
DOD = duo of desirables (heaven & hell),
KOG/H = kingdom of God/heaven,
RC = Roman Catholicism
MFW = moral free will (volition),
TULIP = total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance programmed
LIC = love in Christ

 

[FlyingDove]

I prefer:

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: [ A-1,Noun,G1347, dikaiosis ] - JUSTIFICATION:
denotes the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" "to justify" it is used twice in the Ep. to the Romans, and there alone in the NT, signifying the establishment of a person as just by acquittal from guilt.

In Romans 4:25 the phrase "for our justification," is, lit., "because of our justification" (parallel to the preceding clause "for our trespasses," i.e., because of trespasses committed), and means, not with a view to our "justification," but because all that was necessary on God's part for our "justification" had been effected in the death of Christ. On this account He was raised from the dead. The propitiation being perfect and complete, His resurrection was the confirmatory counterpart.

(Works based salvation collapse right here > Justification = The act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal "to justify".)

Rom 3:26, God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:26, God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:30, God justifies Jew & Gentile through faith.
Rom 4:5, God justifies the ungodly; faith is counted as righteousness.

KJV Dictionary Definition: SANCTIFIED1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services. 2. Affectedly holy.

SANC'TIFIER, n. He that sanctifies or makes holy. In theology, the Holy Spirit is, by way of eminence, denominated the Sanctifier.

SANC'TIFY, v.t. Low L. sanctifico; from sanctus, holy, and facio, to make.

1. In a general sense, to cleanse, purify or make holy. 2. To separate, set apart or appoint to a holy, sacred or religious use.

(NOTE: Sanctified means to made holy & the Holy Spirit alone is the Sanctifier, therefore works don't/can't maintain salvation, because claiming they do makes you & not the Holy Spirit, the one who keeps you holy.)

Justification is when a Sovereign God judicially declares you righteous based on faith placed in Jesus once‑for‑all sin atoning payment & resurrection, an eternal life declaration. Rom 5:1 Having BEEN justified by faith, we have peace with God. That's why Paul uses courtroom terms: counted, credited, imputed (Rom 4:5–8).

Sanctification DOES NOT separated anyone from their sinful nature. Sanctification = Set apart by God for sacred services, the new indwelling Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. Now you are no longer under sins dominion & the Holy Spirit helps lead you to grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Sin struggles still remain: The flesh lusts against the Spirit (Gal 5:17). I see another law in my members warring against my mind (Rom 7:23) etc.

Your definitions blur the line Scripture keeps sharp. If justification = a state of being in Christ & sanctification = a state of being in Christ. The categories collapse into one thing.

But Paul refuses to collapse them: Justification = God's unchanging verdict. Sanctification = the Holy Spirit's ongoing work. One is finished & the other is lifelong.

Blending them always leads back to a works‑shaped gospel where the justification verdict depends on the believer's progress.

The biblical categories remain clean: Justification = God's once‑for‑all legal declaration, based on Christ's faithful obedient, blood sacrifice & resurrection. Received by faith apart from works & it never fluctuates.

Sanctification = The Holy Spirit's ongoing work in the believer, growth, struggle, maturity, transformation that continues until glorification.

 

[FlyingDove]

Do you believe the Son when he says, "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heaven Father"?

Do you believe th Son here

John 6:52-58? I bet you'll tell me what Jesus "really" meant because he couldn't possibly mean what the words actually mean, right?

Help for the scripturally ignorant:

From the very beginning of the biblical pattern, the elements remain BREAD & WINE & NOT literal flesh & blood. Melchizedek the priestly prototype of Christ brought out BREAD & WINE in his priestly ministry (Gen 14:18) & Jesus, the fulfillment of the Melchizedek priesthood (Ps 110:4, Heb 5:6, 7:17), intentionally used BREAD & WINE at the Last Supper to mirror that pattern.

Jesus Himself calls the consecrated elements BREAD (Matt 26:26) & FRIUT OF THE VINE after blessing them (Matt 26:29).

Paul confirms the same reality when he instructs the church about the Lord's Supper, repeatedly calling the consecrated element BREAD (1 Cor 11:26–28) & describing the meal as a proclamation of Christ's death, not a re‑sacrifice or literal consumption of His body & blood (1 Cor 11:26).

Passover typology makes a literal transubstantiation impossible. The Passover lamb is ""eaten after"" it is slain, yet at the Last Supper Jesus had not yet died, His blood had not been shed & He was physically holding the BREAD & WINE. This means the disciples could not have been eating His literal flesh or drinking His literal blood (1 Cor 5:7).

Jesus interprets His own teaching in John 6:53 defining EATING as coming to Him & DRINKING as believing in Him (Jn 6:35).
(NOTE: Jesus defines the metaphor in John 6:35. Before He uses the metaphor in John 6:53.)

Here Jesus rejects a literal interpretation when He says, ""the flesh profits nothing; the words I have spoken to you are spirit & life"" (Jn 6:63).

When Melchizedek's pattern, Jesus' own vocabulary, Paul's apostolic commentary, Passover fulfillment & Jesus' interpretation of John 6 are taken together, the elements remain BREAD & WINE. Jesus Himself tells everyone what the BREAD & WINE represent.

Challenge for Neddy, Provide the scripture that supports your claim of literally eating Jesus flesh & literally drinking Jesus blood & if you can't, then your doctrine isn't apostolic, it's traditional.

The Last Supper and the Passover meal are not random. Passover & the Lord's Supper are God given ordinances & memorials of redemption & deliverance (Ex 12:14, 26–27, 42–49).

Lk 22:19 This is my body, which is given for you, ""do this in remembrance of Me"". 1 Cor 11:24 & 25

For the Jews, Passover commemorated deliverance from slavery & the 10th plague.

For Christians, the Lord's Supper commemorates deliverance from sin & death.

 

[Nedsk]

Help for the scripturally ignorant:

From the very beginning of the biblical pattern, the elements remain BREAD & WINE & NOT literal flesh & blood. Melchizedek the priestly prototype of Christ brought out BREAD & WINE in his priestly ministry (Gen 14:18) & Jesus, the fulfillment of the Melchizedek priesthood (Ps 110:4, Heb 5:6, 7:17), intentionally used BREAD & WINE at the Last Supper to mirror that pattern.

Jesus Himself calls the consecrated elements BREAD (Matt 26:26) & FRIUT OF THE VINE after blessing them (Matt 26:29).

Paul confirms the same reality when he instructs the church about the Lord's Supper, repeatedly calling the consecrated element BREAD (1 Cor 11:26–28) & describing the meal as a proclamation of Christ's death, not a re‑sacrifice or literal consumption of His body & blood (1 Cor 11:26).

Passover typology makes a literal transubstantiation impossible. The Passover lamb is ""eaten after"" it is slain, yet at the Last Supper Jesus had not yet died, His blood had not been shed & He was physically holding the BREAD & WINE. This means the disciples could not have been eating His literal flesh or drinking His literal blood (1 Cor 5:7).

Jesus interprets His own teaching in John 6:53 defining EATING as coming to Him & DRINKING as believing in Him (Jn 6:35).
(NOTE: Jesus defines the metaphor in John 6:35. Before He uses the metaphor in John 6:53.)

Here Jesus rejects a literal interpretation when He says, ""the flesh profits nothing; the words I have spoken to you are spirit & life"" (Jn 6:63).

When Melchizedek's pattern, Jesus' own vocabulary, Paul's apostolic commentary, Passover fulfillment & Jesus' interpretation of John 6 are taken together, the elements remain BREAD & WINE. Jesus Himself tells everyone what the BREAD & WINE represent.

Challenge for Neddy, Provide the scripture that supports your claim of literally eating Jesus flesh & literally drinking Jesus blood & if you can't, then your doctrine isn't apostolic, it's traditional.

The Last Supper and the Passover meal are not random. Passover & the Lord's Supper are God given ordinances & memorials of redemption & deliverance (Ex 12:14, 26–27, 42–49).

Lk 22:19 This is my body, which is given for you, ""do this in remembrance of Me"". 1 Cor 11:24 & 25

For the Jews, Passover commemorated deliverance from slavery & the 10th plague.

For Christians, the Lord's Supper commemorates deliverance from sin & death.

I'll give you credit you clearly have a vase supply of copy and paste material. You realize don't you that if you're lucky I read less that 1% of these voluminous post? It's not impressive at all but copying and pasting must soothe you somehow.

 

[homwardbound]

I certainly get misquoted all the time which is why I don't write lengthy wordy replies very often. Indi run away, I simplify what I'm saying. Scripture says what it says. I find lots of people have to use three times the number of words to tell me why Scripture doesn't mean what it's saying. May God bless you

You a well thank you
Short simple
God just loves you

 

[Nedsk]

You a well thank you
Short simple
God just loves you

Yes I believe God does love me but that doesn't mean there isn't discipline. Hebrews 12:6. You can't just ignore the stuff you don't like.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes I believe God does love me but that doesn't mean there isn't discipline. Hebrews 12:6. You can't just ignore the stuff you don't like.

I love the law of God Psalm 1:1-4 I love discipline, hate punishment I see the difference. Being taught new by God Matthew 10:16-20 thank you Nedsk

 

[FlyingDove]

I'll give you credit you clearly have a vase supply of copy and paste material. You realize don't you that if you're lucky I read less that 1% of these voluminous post? It's not impressive at all but copying and pasting must soothe you somehow.

I knew you couldn't provide scripture to defend your transubstantiation position & when a man mocks Scripture instead of answering it, the debate is already over