No living faith without works

[Toknow]

The call there is a summoning, much as a king would summon a subject. The summoning was often accompanied by an armed escort. It wasn't an option for the recipient of the call to refuse. It is an effectual call, and not a general call or heralding. In other words, it is an audience with the King.

Why is Romans 8:29-30 in the past tense?

 

[Cameron143]

Why is Romans 8:29-30 in the past tense?

God sometimes speaks of things as accomplished before they are in actuality accomplished. Since He is sovereign and knows the end from the beginning, all He claims will come to pass.

 

[Toknow]

God sometimes speaks of things as accomplished before they are in actuality accomplished. Since He is sovereign and knows the end from the beginning, all He claims will come to pass.

Can you think of any other time God speaks in the past for something that will happen in the future?

 

[Toknow]

God sometimes speaks of things as accomplished before they are in actuality accomplished. Since He is sovereign and knows the end from the beginning, all He claims will come to pass.

PS
Does He know what comes to pass or does God decree it?

Different.

 

[Cameron143]

Can you think of any other time God speaks in the past for something that will happen in the future?

God covered sins in the OT knowing Christ would pay for them. God came in grace to Noah on the basis of the cross. In fact, every act of grace on God's part is predicated upon the cross.

 

[Cameron143]

PS
Does He know what comes to pass or does God decree it?

Different.

Both.

 

[Toknow]

God covered sins in the OT knowing Christ would pay for them. God came in grace to Noah on the basis of the cross. In fact, every act of grace on God's part is predicated upon the cross.

Ok
But I can't remember any other time God spoke in the past tense.
I have a reason for asking but out right now.

 

[Toknow]

Both.

Don't agree with the decree....
But ok.

 

[Inquisitor]

The call there is a summoning, much as a king would summon a subject. The summoning was often accompanied by an armed escort. It wasn't an option for the recipient of the call to refuse. It is an effectual call, and not a general call or heralding. In other words, it is an audience with the King.

Your saying that this group of people that He foreknew were summoned by Jesus.

Not an optional call; the Lord was not calling a wider audience but a smaller group?

Then how do you explain the following verse.

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Was the Lord calling all these people?

Was the invitation given to all those He formerly knew?

 

[Cameron143]

Your saying that this group of people that He foreknew were summoned by Jesus.

Not an optional call; the Lord was not calling a wider audience but a smaller group?

Then how do you explain the following verse.

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Was the Lord calling all these people?

Was the invitation given to all those He formerly knew?

An invitation and a summons are very different.

Sometimes a call is a general invitation, and sometimes it is a summons. The story of the wedding feast was both. The original guests were given an invitation which they refused. So, the servants went to the highways and byways and compelled others to come.

 

[Inquisitor]

An invitation and a summons are very different.

Sometimes a call is a general invitation, and sometimes it is a summons. The story of the wedding feast was both. The original guests were given an invitation which they refused. So, the servants went to the highways and byways and compelled others to come.

Your missing the point.

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

The Lord was calling Israel all day long but they resisted that calling.

Why did Israel resist because they were disobedient and stubborn.

As you said; the original guests (Israel) had other things to do, they resisted the invitation.

But they were invited.

 

[Inquisitor]

God sometimes speaks of things as accomplished before they are in actuality accomplished. Since He is sovereign and knows the end from the beginning, all He claims will come to pass.

Sounds like the philosophy of Gottschalk of Obais.

 

[Toknow]

An invitation and a summons are very different.

Sometimes a call is a general invitation, and sometimes it is a summons. The story of the wedding feast was both. The original guests were given an invitation which they refused. So, the servants went to the highways and byways and compelled others to come.

Where does the wedding banquet parable state that the servants went to the highways and compelled others to come in?
They were not compelled,,,,
but invited.



Matthew 22:9-10
9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'

10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,

12 and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without * wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.

13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


The slaves went out and INVITED as many as they could find.
The wedding banquet became full of invited guests.

Those that accepted the invitation.

And in verse 12 and 13 we're even told that one of the invited guests had to be banished from the festivites because he was not dressed appropriately.


Not all who are invited will come.

Not all who come will be allowed to stay.

 

[Cameron143]

Your missing the point.

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

The Lord was calling Israel all day long but they resisted that calling.

Why did Israel resist because they were disobedient and stubborn.

As you said; the original guests (Israel) had other things to do, they resisted the invitation.

But they were invited.

They were invited. They weren't summoned. They weren't compelled, like the other guests were.

 

[Cameron143]

Where does the wedding banquet parable state that the servants went to the highways and compelled others to come in?
They were not compelled,,,,
but invited.



Matthew 22:9-10
9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'

10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,

12 and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without * wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.

13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


The slaves went out and INVITED as many as they could find.
The wedding banquet became full of invited guests.

Those that accepted the invitation.

And in verse 12 and 13 we're even told that one of the invited guests had to be banished from the festivites because he was not dressed appropriately.


Not all who are invited will come.

Not all who come will be allowed to stay.

Luke 14:16-25.
Verse 23...compel them to come.

None of which matters to Romans 8:30. The term call there means summon, and not invite. You can either accept that sometimes call is an invitation and sometimes it means summons, or not.

 

[Cameron143]

Some examples of God using past tense for future fulfillment:

Isaiah 53:5..He was pierced...He was crushed...

Romans 8:30...justified...glorified...

Ephedrine 2:6...raised us up...seated us...

1 Samuel 17:46...I have smitten thee...

 

[Inquisitor]

They were invited. They weren't summoned. They weren't compelled, like the other guests were.

Are you saying that the invitation was not a valid invitation?

 

[Cameron143]

Are you saying that the invitation was not a valid invitation?

No. I'm saying it's simply an invitation. And that there are both invitations and summons given in scripture.

 

[Toknow]

Luke 14:16-25.
Verse 23...compel them to come.

None of which matters to Romans 8:30. The term call there means summon, and not invite. You can either accept that sometimes call is an invitation and sometimes it means summons, or not.

Isn't it interesting Cameron....
that those in Luke 14:16-25 that were INVITED did not come.

They had a choice to make.
They decided NOT to go to the dinner.

As to the compelling...
God has an urgency to call those that were not His elect for revelation...the Jews.
He is not calling the Gentiles too.

This is from Strong's
315
anagkazo

2. Luke 14:23 – In the parable of the Great Banquet the master commands, “Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, so that My house will be full.” The verb portrays zealous persuasion, not coercion that violates conscience. The picture is of earnest, loving insistence grounded in the host’s generosity.


God does not coerce.


As to Romans 8:30
God calls
God invites

Again
God does not coerce


Romans 8:30
Strong's 2564
ekalesen
to call


And we must remember,,,
that doctrine is not derived from one verse but from the entirety of the NT
and all scripture must harmonize with itself.

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT PERISH.
I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF.

All are invited.
No coercion.

 

[Cameron143]

Isn't it interesting Cameron....
that those in Luke 14:16-25 that were INVITED did not come.

They had a choice to make.
They decided NOT to go to the dinner.

As to the compelling...
God has an urgency to call those that were not His elect for revelation...the Jews.
He is not calling the Gentiles too.

This is from Strong's
315
anagkazo

2. Luke 14:23 – In the parable of the Great Banquet the master commands, “Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, so that My house will be full.” The verb portrays zealous persuasion, not coercion that violates conscience. The picture is of earnest, loving insistence grounded in the host’s generosity.


God does not coerce.


As to Romans 8:30
God calls
God invites

Again
God does not coerce


Romans 8:30
Strong's 2564
ekalesen
to call


And we must remember,,,
that doctrine is not derived from one verse but from the entirety of the NT
and all scripture must harmonize with itself.

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT PERISH.
I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF.

All are invited.
No coercion.

The word call in Romans 8:30 is a summons. Look it up.