No living faith without works

[Inquisitor]

How about you? Are you forgiven and justified with your Christ, while you are sinning with the world?

As I have repeatedly told you everyone sins so what is that line of demarcation?

Is it the sabbath or Saturday?

Everyone is unrighteous in their Christian life especially these days.

The rise of the internet, social media, online games, movies online, gambling, etc.

I don't think anyone has time to read the scripture anymore.

 

[Inquisitor]

Notice that Galatians 2:15-16 is speaking about THE WORKS OF THE LAW.

I believe you must surely know that The Law was aboiished 2 thousand years ago.
I've said this many times now and, I believe, even to YOU.

What you'd have to find is scripture that states that good works/deeds are NOT NECESSARY after we are initually saved.



Agreed 100%



Agreed 100%


1. It's speaking about becoming saved.

Again: Every Christian I know believes we are saved by FAITH ALONE.

So surely we're discussing something ELSE which seem to elude some or they just do not want to accept what the NT teaches.


2. You have left out

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Paul is teaching that we are created to do good works.
And that we are to walk in them.

AFTER salvation FAITH ALONE no longer works.
Paul has added good works to our faith.

so
It is no longer FAITH ALONE.


FAITH ALONE IS FOR BEFORE SALVATION.
NOT AFTER SALVATION.

This is what M. Luther taught, and Jesus, and Paul, and all of the NT writers.

Revelation tells us that the Lord will eject us for a lukewarm faith (Revelation 3:16).

That is definitely not a genuine faith that lives the Christian life towards others (agape love).

The reason for salvation is by the shed blood of Jesus Christ only, that is the gospel.

 

[Dino246]

Good works/good deeds come AFTER being born again.
This is SANCTIFICATION.

Sanctification is the process of being made holy; that is the literal meaning of the word.

Works might be evidence of sanctification but they are neither the cause nor the process.

Progressing sanctification is shown by the fruit of the Spirit.

Sanctification is both instantaneous and lifelong; in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor: 6:11) Paul states that they were sanctified, indicating a completed action. Practically we understand that we still have a long journey ahead.

 

[Inquisitor]

Call in Romans 8:30 is a compelling invitation or summoning.

Where I have difficulty with that verse is Romans 8, sits between Romans 7 and Romans 9.

Both of those chapters are explaining the Jewish position not the Gentile condition.

If I was forced to call Romans 8, in the context it would apply to the Jews.

Tough call and I am not sure if I am correct.

The context is certainly clear in chapters 2 to chapter 11.

 

[Mem]

Jesus was crucified 'as if' He had sinned, horribly, in spite of all His merit. And because God accepted that 'judgment' upon Him, He also accepts that we are justified 'as if' we had never sinned.

That it is a paradoxically existence that we've stepped into of 'already not yet' makes it that much harder to understand how we should "make every effort to enter that rest (Heb4:11)."

 

[Cameron143]

Where I have difficulty with that verse is Romans 8, sits between Romans 7 and Romans 9.

Both of those chapters are explaining the Jewish position not the Gentile condition.

If I was forced to call Romans 8, in the context it would apply to the Jews.

Tough call and I am not sure if I am correct.

The context is certainly clear in chapters 2 to chapter 11.

That doesn't change the definition of the word call.

 

[Toknow]

Revelation tells us that the Lord will eject us for a lukewarm faith (Revelation 3:16).

That is definitely not a genuine faith that lives the Christian life towards others (agape love).

The reason for salvation is by the shed blood of Jesus Christ only, that is the gospel.

Sure.

But I have no idea what the above has to do with the conversation at hand.

 

[Toknow]

Sanctification is the process of being made holy; that is the literal meaning of the word.

Works might be evidence of sanctification but they are neither the cause nor the process.

Are we back where we started?

Works are the CAUSE of sanctification.

Are you now saying that FAITH ALONE is all that is needed AFTER justificaiton?

This is NOT what Martin Luther taught.
He taught that FAITH ALONE saves.

He did NOT teach that faith alone causes sanctifiction.




Martin Luther believed in doing good works for sanctification, but he strictly separated them from justification. Luther taught that good works are not a means to gain salvation—which is by grace through faith alone—but are the necessary result of faith and a way to serve the neighbor and discipline the sinful nature.
The Lutheran Witness +2

• Faith vs. Works: Luther argued that a good person (made righteous by faith) does good works, not that good works make a person good.
• Purpose of Works (Sanctification): Good works are necessary for sanctifying the "old Adam" (mortifying sin) and for loving one's neighbor.
• Freedom of a Christian: He taught that a Christian is free from the law to earn salvation but is bound by love to serve others.
• The Result of Faith: True faith cannot exist without works, just as a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, meaning works are the natural outcome of a justified soul.

Progressing sanctification is shown by the fruit of the Spirit.

Sanctification is received by doing what God commands us to do.

If we cooperate with God, we continue to be sanctified.
If we do not cooperate with God....
we will not continue to be sanctified.


We must cleanse ourselveds from what is dishonorable so that God can USE US.


2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.


We are SAVED THROUGH SANCTIFICATION.
After justificaiton....we continue on to sanctification.

Justification is a total work of God through our faith.
Sanctification requires that we cooperate with God.
We are created for good works. Ephe 2:10


2 Thessalonians 2:13
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Sanctification is both instantaneous and lifelong; in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor: 6:11) Paul states that they were sanctified, indicating a completed action. Practically we understand that we still have a long journey ahead.

Sanctification is not a completed process.

You yourself have just stated that it's a life-long process.

Something that take a life to accomplish...
is not a completed progress.

 

[Inquisitor]

That doesn't change the definition of the word call.

Here is the paragraph your quoting from.

The word used is "called".

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined,
He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified,
He also glorified.

Whom is Paul referring to in this paragraph "those whom He foreknew"?

These people 'He also called' and what do you think that means?

 

[Toknow]

Where I have difficulty with that verse is Romans 8, sits between Romans 7 and Romans 9.

Both of those chapters are explaining the Jewish position not the Gentile condition.

If I was forced to call Romans 8, in the context it would apply to the Jews.

Tough call and I am not sure if I am correct.

The context is certainly clear in chapters 2 to chapter 11.

You're correct.
According to Dr. David Allen Romans 1 to 8 is Paul addressing the Jews
and 9 to 16 is Paul addressing the Gentiles.

Call just means invited.
The other poster said it's an effecual call.
He's is probably of the reformed/calvinist faith, as also you may be....
this would be the reason he stated that it is effectual.

At the wedding banquet the servant was told to go out and call

Here is the paragraph your quoting from.

The word used is "called".

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined,
He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified,
He also glorified.

Whom is Paul referring to in this paragraph "those whom He foreknew"?

These people 'He also called' and what do you think that means?

To the refomed CALLED means that the call was effectual and that God only calls those that He chose for salvation.

To the non-reformed CALLED means invited...which is the Greek words used here:
MATTHEW 22:9 THE WEDDING BANQUET
ROMANS 8:28
ROMANS:8:29

Romans 8.28, 29 is referring to those that Paul plainly identifies:

Those that God FOREKNEW.

To foreknow does not mean to predestinate.
It just means those that God knew would accept His CALL,,,His invitation.

All are invited...
but not all accept.

The CALLED were indeed invited.

Some do accept:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Gideon300]

And here is where the confusion might be.....
Every Christian believes we are saved/born again by faith alone.
I don't know any denomination that teaches that works justify.
Not even the CC.
And I use the word JUSTIFY a lot to try to be clear...but apparently it doesn't help too much.

When we speak of works/good deeds,,,,it should be understood that the poster means after salvation.


NO!

You just contradicted what you said above.

Here is what you just stated:
"Faith alone means works are not required to be born again."

So now why, in your analogy, are you talking about working 100 hours?
I thought you said that only faith saves?

Which, indeed, is true.


Right.
Good works/good deeds come AFTER being born again.
This is SANCTIFICATION.

Again,,,,no Christian believes that works save a person.
JUSTIFICATION


Gideon....The imperishable seed in 1 Peter 1:23 is the word of God.


1 Peter 1:17-25
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,

19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,

23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

24 For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,

25 BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.


Verse 17 we will be judged by our works. This is repeated by Paul in Romans 2 and Jesus in John 5:28-29

Verse 18, 19 we were not redeemed with perishable things....but with the precious blood of Christ.

Verse 21 we are believers in God through Jesus.

Verse 22 we have purified out souls through obedience to the truth.

Verse 23 the word of God is the imperisable seed.

Verse 25 the word of God will live forever. It is imperisable.




Agreed.

1 Peter 1:13 tells us to gird our minds for action.


1 Peter 1:13-14
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,


Jesus said we are to act on His words. Matthew 7:24


Matthew 7.24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.



There is no perfection in this life.
The NT, in fact, does not teach this.

it just teaches that we are to persevere in sanctification...as even the verses above state.


We seem to be agreeing.

I would like you to read my post again. I used the analogy of working 100 hours as to how NOT to approach salvation. I would remind you again that we are saved by grace, through faith. If there was no grace, then faith to move Mt Everest into the Pacific Ocean would not be enough to save.

 

[Toknow]

I would like you to read my post again. I used the analogy of working 100 hours as to how NOT to approach salvation. I would remind you again that we are saved by grace, through faith. If there was no grace, then faith to move Mt Everest into the Pacific Ocean would not be enough to save.

Instead of SAVED.....due to the total confusion in langauage....
if you wouldn't mind...
when posting to me could you use the words JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION?
To avoid this confusion.

I read you post.
I understand what you were saying.
I repeated that one cannot work 100 hours to GAIN JUSTIFICATION.
I was agreeing with you.

Or
You could not.
But I'm through battling with definitions.

 

[Dino246]

Are we back where we started?

Works are the CAUSE of sanctification.

Are you now saying that FAITH ALONE is all that is needed AFTER justificaiton?

This is NOT what Martin Luther taught.
He taught that FAITH ALONE saves.

He did NOT teach that faith alone causes sanctifiction.




Martin Luther believed in doing good works for sanctification, but he strictly separated them from justification. Luther taught that good works are not a means to gain salvation—which is by grace through faith alone—but are the necessary result of faith and a way to serve the neighbor and discipline the sinful nature.
The Lutheran Witness +2

• Faith vs. Works: Luther argued that a good person (made righteous by faith) does good works, not that good works make a person good.
• Purpose of Works (Sanctification): Good works are necessary for sanctifying the "old Adam" (mortifying sin) and for loving one's neighbor.
• Freedom of a Christian: He taught that a Christian is free from the law to earn salvation but is bound by love to serve others.
• The Result of Faith: True faith cannot exist without works, just as a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, meaning works are the natural outcome of a justified soul.

Sanctification is received by doing what God commands us to do.

If we cooperate with God, we continue to be sanctified.
If we do not cooperate with God....
we will not continue to be sanctified.


We must cleanse ourselveds from what is dishonorable so that God can USE US.


2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.


We are SAVED THROUGH SANCTIFICATION.
After justificaiton....we continue on to sanctification.

Justification is a total work of God through our faith.
Sanctification requires that we cooperate with God.
We are created for good works. Ephe 2:10


2 Thessalonians 2:13
13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.



Sanctification is not a completed process.

You yourself have just stated that it's a life-long process.

Something that take a life to accomplish...
is not a completed progress.

It appears that you would rather argue than think.

“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The word “were” indicates past tense, a complete action.

 

[Gideon300]

Instead of SAVED.....due to the total confusion in langauage....
if you wouldn't mind...
when posting to me could you use the words JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION?
To avoid this confusion.

I read you post.
I understand what you were saying.
I repeated that one cannot work 100 hours to GAIN JUSTIFICATION.
I was agreeing with you.

Or
You could not.
But I'm through battling with definitions.

I apologise if I am confusing you. I got the impression that you disagreed with my analogy. I also believe that the most important distinction is between the initial, born again experience and the ongoing experience that follows.

No one "gains" justification. It's a done deal. (Romans 8:30) No one "gains" sanctification". It is also a finished work.
"It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption." (1 Corinthians 1:30)

 

[Toknow]

It appears that you would rather argue than think.

“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The word “were” indicates past tense, a complete action.

If we WERE sanctified....
then Paul was wrong when he said we are to work out our salvation.

Philippians 2:12
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;


We are told TO OBEY.
Paul did not put OBEY in the past tense.
We must continue to obey,,,
Continue to do as Jesus commanded...
it is not a completed action.


2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use,


We are told to CLEANSE OURSELVES from what is dishonorable.
This, also, is not ìn the past tense.
If we want to be used for honorable purposes,,,we must keep ourselves clean.


Hebrews 10:4
4For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


We are BEING sanctified.


Sanctification is a life-long, ongoing process.

Justification is instant.
Sanctification is not....it's a process.

@Gideon300

 

[Toknow]

It appears that you would rather argue than think.

Debating a topic is not arguing.

Debating requires thinking.

Do YOU think before replying?

What makes you assume that others do not?

Because someone does not agree with you does not make them argumentative.
Because someone does not agree with you does not mean they do not think.

It means they do not agree with you.

And scripture always helps.

“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The word “were” indicates past tense, a complete action.

 

[Cameron143]

Here is the paragraph your quoting from.

The word used is "called".

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined,
He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified,
He also glorified.

Whom is Paul referring to in this paragraph "those whom He foreknew"?

These people 'He also called' and what do you think that means?

The call there is a summoning, much as a king would summon a subject. The summoning was often accompanied by an armed escort. It wasn't an option for the recipient of the call to refuse. It is an effectual call, and not a general call or heralding. In other words, it is an audience with the King.

 

[Dino246]

We are BEING sanctified.

Sanctification is a life-long, ongoing process.

Justification is instant.
Sanctification is not....it's a process.

So you just ignore 1 Cor. 6:11 instead of integrating it… okay.

 

[Toknow]

So you just ignore 1 Cor. 6:11 instead of integrating it… okay.

So you ignore the scripture I posted?

Could you integrate it please?

 

[Toknow]

So you just ignore 1 Cor. 6:11 instead of integrating it… okay.

I'll be happy to integrate but will need my computer.

If you can,,,,you go first.