No living faith without works
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That's not what I said. I just showed you where God has used the past tense to speak of things yet to come to pass.
Golly.
Jesus musta been a horrible communicator!
Couldn't even say what He meant!
Maybe You shoulda written the NT!
What about women.....!
You dishonor the word of God....
And thus God Himself with your silly comments.
@Toknow :
Did you read Romans 8 before responding with the above? Did you see that the Spirit is mentioned almost 20 times?
It looks like you just typed a knee-jerk reaction instead of thinking. Perhaps you should re-think your response and offer an apology.
Every post I read on here is a knee jerk reaction.
Like yours.
Why not offer your explanation as to why rom 8,30 is in the past tense.
Perhaps you could rethink your non answers.
@studier
It's rather difficult to have a serious conversation here, but would like your opinion
because of your knowledge of grammar.
The reformed/calvinists always will refer to Romans 8:28-30 and also some verses in Romans 9 because they believe these passages are referring to God's predestination of individuals for salvation.
It's clear from the NT that this understanding is not correct,
and all that is necessary is Romans 9:30 which states that Gentiles are righteous because of their FAITH,
ditto for the jews who did NOT seek righteousness by faith.
Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
and, we see that Romans 10 also destroys a calvinist understanding of 8:30, and chpater 9:
Romans 10:16-17
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Two points:
1. "They did not all heed" refers to man's free will to accept or reject God's message.
2. Faith comes by hearing....and not by unconditional election.
So I believe we need nothing further to dismantle Romans 8 and 9 as calvinist in nature.
However,,,,there is a new idea that I've recently learned ....
and it states that Romans 8:28-30 is actually speaking about those that are already saved believers.
in fact this is stated in,
Romans 8:28......God works all thing for the good TO THOSE THAT LOVE HIM.
Then Romans 8:29 goes on to say that God foreknew those that would be conformed to the image of His Son.
Then Romans 8:30 switches to the past tense.....
the idea being that perhaps Paul was addressing OT saints/believers because JUSTIFIED and GLORIFIED are in the past tense...
and a person would have to be dead in order to be glorified.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(how could a person be glorified if they're still living)
Care to take the time to comment?
Perhaps @TrustandObey would also have a comment.
It's rather difficult to have a serious conversation here, but would like your opinion
because of your knowledge of grammar.
The reformed/calvinists always will refer to Romans 8:28-30 and also some verses in Romans 9 because they believe these passages are referring to God's predestination of individuals for salvation.
It's clear from the NT that this understanding is not correct,
and all that is necessary is Romans 9:30 which states that Gentiles are righteous because of their FAITH,
ditto for the jews who did NOT seek righteousness by faith.
Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
and, we see that Romans 10 also destroys a calvinist understanding of 8:30, and chpater 9:
Romans 10:16-17
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Two points:
1. "They did not all heed" refers to man's free will to accept or reject God's message.
2. Faith comes by hearing....and not by unconditional election.
So I believe we need nothing further to dismantle Romans 8 and 9 as calvinist in nature.
However,,,,there is a new idea that I've recently learned ....
and it states that Romans 8:28-30 is actually speaking about those that are already saved believers.
in fact this is stated in,
Romans 8:28......God works all thing for the good TO THOSE THAT LOVE HIM.
Then Romans 8:29 goes on to say that God foreknew those that would be conformed to the image of His Son.
Then Romans 8:30 switches to the past tense.....
the idea being that perhaps Paul was addressing OT saints/believers because JUSTIFIED and GLORIFIED are in the past tense...
and a person would have to be dead in order to be glorified.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(how could a person be glorified if they're still living)
Care to take the time to comment?
Perhaps @TrustandObey would also have a comment.
Romans 8 is NOT speaking about the Holy Spirit.
it is addressing how a person comes to be saved.
ANY Christian reading along will know that the Holy Spirit is involved in EVERY ASPECT of our Christian life.
This does not mean that the entire NT is about the Holy Spirit.
Know what would be nice Dino246?
Some serious conversation.
But some on these threads are incapable of this,,,,
so they just make silly comment instead.
Incredible.
Do you even read the bible?
I will, however, keep reading your posts and making comments from time to time.
Even though you are totally incapable of replying to any of my comments.
It's a an observation and a rational comment that things aren't true simply because we believe it. If someone believes they are called that's not evidence they actually are called. You understand that right?
Have you ever considered that the past tense is used because the events were determined even before the earth's foundation was put in place? Duh. . .
I know that you would like to put God in your own little box, but scripture speaks of Him determining all events even before they take place. That is why your good works are but chaff. The law has become your stumbling block. . . .
He does as He pleases! Psalm 135
But we will be judged by our works matt 25:31-46. Who inherits the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world? No where does it say those who believe or those who have faith.
Nedsk
The other side of the isle likes to either reject scripture or ignore it altogether.
Matthew 7 has many verses that the other side likes to ignore.
Yours is one of them:
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Jesus also said:
Luke 6.46
46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
If we do not ACT on the words of Jesus....we are like the foolish man whose house fell when the winds came.
Luke 6:47
Faith alone is not a biblical teaching.
Jesus said to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
WE are the Kingdom of God.
It's up to US to fashion the Kingdom of God here.
This requires DOING what Jesus commanded us to do.
Are you saying that God glorified someone before they died?
Are they on this earth with their glorified bodies?
Romans 8:30
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
It states that those that God JUSTIFIED, He also GLORIFIED.
Please explain who these persons are that were GLORIFIED at the same time that they were JUSTIFIED.
it is my understanding that a person has to DIE in order to be glorified.
Thanks.