The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?
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God Himself saying the ten commandments are the Covenant, the rest of the law of Moses was added later and was Not placed in the Ark of the Covenant, onlt the Ten commandments ( yes I know about the manna jar and Aaron's staff) ..... we agree however that some terms to designate some part of the Law was man made. But beware putting them all in the same basket an calling it Law is just as bad. God made the distinction between the ten commandments and the rest of the Law not me. Do you want me to prove this to you again that God made this distinction? I have no problem explaining it in more detail.
Where did the Ten Commandments actually originate? Did they come from the Father, the Son, or the Holy Sprit?
Of course the Holy Spirit produces fruit in us. Of course we are powerless without Him. Nobody is disagreeing with any of that. Those things are completely true.
The statement that obedience is not you producing fruit insinuates to separate the Holy Spirit from obedience as though they are two competing things. As though being genuinely Spirit filled somehow bypasses keeping God's commandments rather than producing it naturally in a transformed heart.
But Jesus never presented it that way. He actually tied the Holy Spirit and obedience together in the same breath on the same night in the same conversation:
If ye love me keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter. (John 14:15-16 KJV)
Keep my commandments AND I will give you the Holy Spirit. Jesus connected them deliberately and inseparably. And God confirmed through Ezekiel exactly what the Holy Spirit produces in a genuinely surrendered heart:
I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and ye shall keep my judgments and do them.(Ezekiel 36:27 KJV)
The Spirit causes you to walk in God's statutes. Walking in the commandments is not you replacing the Spirit. It is the Spirit working in you producing exactly what God promised He would produce. They are not opposites. They were always meant to work together.
And here is why this argument is genuinely dangerous. If you accept that obedience is not required because the Spirit does everything you have effectively removed any measurable standard for genuine faith. You have created a version of Christianity where anything goes as long as you claim the Spirit is in you. And Jesus warned about exactly that with the most sobering words in the Gospels:
Many will say to me in that day Lord Lord have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them I never knew you depart from me ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22-23 KJV)
These people had power. They had spiritual activity. They claimed the Spirit. And Jesus called their lives iniquity and said He never knew them. Power without obedience to God's commandments is not the fruit Jesus was looking for. It is the deception He warned us about most seriously.
The Holy Spirit and obedience are never in competition. The Spirit is given to produce obedience. Obedience is the evidence the Spirit is genuinely present. Jesus tied them together permanently and no argument however spiritual it sounds can separate what He joined.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. Jesus said so Himself with complete clarity:
I and my Father are one. (John 10:30 KJV)
And:
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. (John 14:9 KJV)
So asking whether the commandments came from the Father or the Son is like asking whether a thought came from your mind or your brain. They cannot be separated. The commandments express the eternal character of the one God who exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They did not originate with Moses. They did not originate at Sinai. They originate in the eternal character of God Himself who never changes:
For I am the Lord I change not. (Malachi 3:6 KJV)
And Jesus the Son confirmed their permanent standing in His own voice with His own words leaving absolutely no room for the argument this question is setting up:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you till heaven and earth pass away one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18 KJV)
The Son Himself said they stand. So whether they came from the Father or the Son makes absolutely no difference to whether they still apply. Because the Son said they do. In His own words. On His own authority.
And the Holy Spirit? God told us through Jeremiah exactly what the Holy Spirit does with those same commandments under the New Covenant:
I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts. (Jeremiah 31:33 KJV)
The Holy Spirit writes the same commandments deeper on transformed hearts. He does not erase them. He internalises them.
So, The Ten Commandments originate in the eternal unchanging character of the one God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit all bear witness to them. The Father gave them. The Son confirmed them and declared them permanent. The Holy Spirit writes them on believing hearts. All three. Together. Pointing in exactly the same direction.
I agree They are one but They all 3 have different roles do they not. Was everything created by Jesus or through Jesus. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have different roles, which person of the Godhead was actually the voice speaking to Moses at Sinai? Since scripture says no one has ever seen or heard the Father directly, wasnt it specifically the Son acting as the Word who delivered the 10 commandments?
You are right that the three persons of the Godhead have different roles while remaining one in nature and character. And your question about who specifically spoke to Moses at Sinai is genuinely fascinating when you dig into Scripture carefully.
You are right that no one has seen the Father directly. Jesus confirmed this Himself:
No man hath seen God at any time the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father he hath declared him.(John 1:18 KJV)
So who was the voice at Sinai? Scripture points very strongly to exactly what you are suggesting. It was the Son acting as the eternal Word of God. John established this foundational truth at the very opening of his Gospel:
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were made by him and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3 KJV)
The Son as the eternal Word was the agent of both creation and revelation. The burning bush, the pillar of fire, the voice at Sinai, the angel of the Lord who appeared throughout the Old Testament and accepted worship and spoke as God, these all consistently point to the pre-incarnate Son making the invisible Father known.
Now here is where it gets really powerful. Jesus revealed this identity not once but twice in ways that caused immediate and violent reactions from those who heard Him.
The first time was in His hometown synagogue in Nazareth. He stood up and read from the scroll of Isaiah:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind to set at liberty them that are bruised. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. (Luke 4:18-19 KJV)
He closed the scroll sat down and every eye in the synagogue was fixed on Him. And then He said something that ignited the room immediately:
This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (Luke 4:21 KJV)
He was declaring Himself to be the fulfillment of Isaiah's messianic prophecy. The God who spoke through Isaiah was now standing in front of them in human flesh. The reaction was immediate. They were filled with wrath, rose up, drove Him out of the city and tried to throw Him off a cliff. (Luke 4:28-29). The I AM was standing in their synagogue reading His own prophecy about Himself and they tried to kill Him for it.
The second and even more direct declaration came when Jesus was in a heated discussion with the religious leaders about His identity and His relationship with Abraham. He made a statement that stopped everyone dead:
Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58 KJV)
The same I AM who spoke to Moses at the burning bush:
And God said unto Moses I AM THAT I AM thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel I AM hath sent me unto you.(Exodus 3:14 KJV)
The reaction was instant. They took up stones to kill Him. (John 8:59). They understood exactly what He was claiming. He was not saying I existed before Abraham. He was claiming to be the eternal I AM who spoke to Moses. The God of Sinai. The voice in the burning bush. Standing right there in front of them.
Jesus was claiming to be the same voice that spoke to Moses. The same eternal Son who delivered the commandments at Sinai walked the earth in human flesh and then confirmed them in His own words:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17 KJV)
The one who gave the commandments confirmed them. The same voice. The same Lord. The eternal Word of God in two different moments of history saying exactly the same thing. Which makes the argument that the New Covenant abolished the commandments completely impossible to sustain. The same person who gave them said they would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away. He was not overruling anyone. He was confirming His own eternal word. And that word still stands.
I am glad you agree that Jesus fulfilled the OC law.
Christians should stick with what Jesus taught plainly in the NT, not in prooftexts, using the OT as context when appropriate.
IOW e.g., Matt. 5:19 should be harmonized with John 13:34-35, Rom. 3:21-5:1 & Heb. 7:11-10:1.
"Forever" in the OT may mean until the NT cross/Gospel is revealed by the Lord (cf. Heb. 6:20, 7:3, 12, 18, 21, 24 & 28),
just as "the blessed inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5) is revealed to mean "the saved go to heaven" (Matt. 5:3&10).
Beware of ignoring the new wine or trying to store it in old flasks (Matt. 9:17).
Your post is redundant.
The book of the covenant contained all the words that God spoke (Exodus 24).
Not some partition of the law that your attempting to generate.
Exodus 24:3-8
Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances;
and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken
we will do!” Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Then he arose early in the morning,
and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.
He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young
bulls as peace offerings to the Lord. Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the
other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the book of the covenant and read
it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we
will be obedient!” So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said,
“Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all
these words.”
Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances.
Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord.
Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all
these words.
There are no tablets of stone in this original covenant.
God did not write anything here.
There is no Ark of the covenant.
Why do you ignore Exodus 24 and relentlessly quote Exodus 34?
That's what I want to know vassal; why Exodus 34.
What are you up to?
Just as the Father created everything through Jesus, he also gave his commandments through Jesus. The Word didn’t come to earth to fulfill his own commandments but the commandments of the Father. After all, at that time the Father still possessed all authority.
But the most important part is the change in power after the resurrection. In Matthew 28:18, Jesus says all authority has been given to him. You don't give a promotion to someone who is already the CEO. The Father officially handed over the keys and the role of Judge to the Son, which is why he told us at the Transfiguration to “Hear Him”..
This is where the history of kings gives us a great earthly example. When a new King takes the throne with all authority, he often takes the foundational principles of the previous administration and condenses them into a single, unified Code that reflects his own heart and authority. Napoleon and Justinian did this when they took thousands of regional customs and simplified them into one clear Code that everyone could live by.
Jesus did the same thing. He took the foundational principles of the Father’s stone tablets that he once relayed and distilled them into his own New Commandment of Love. By focusing on the Saturday Sabbath, you are following the transcript from when the Father had authority, rather than listening to the new orders the Son is giving now as the Crowned King.
If you want an example of the opposite of the situation, look at the U.S. Every new administration just piles on more books. And we can obviously see that more rules don’t help the situation.
The fruit of the Holy Spirit IS our obedience, to the Will of the Father, as Christ showed us.
without obedience, there are no fruits of the Holy Spirit
without a person showing fruits, there is no evidence of indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit can & will only "fruit" obedience, which is the Character of Christ and His Righteousness.
The Holy Spirit is Perfection, Love, obedience to the Father's WILL, as Jesus was & IS NOW ! ... and forever shall be.
Come on !! Inquisitor! You can realize this ! The Holy Spirit is THE Spirit of Christ !!! Christ always did the Will of the Father. ( His Law )
Jesus, ALWAYS has the character of His Father, which is exemplified by His Commandments of Love, Love for Father God, the first 4 commandments, and love for our neighbors, the last 6 commandments. ( Matthew 22:37 ) Jesus and the The Father are one, one mind, of one accord, ALWAYS ! in harmony, synchronized in Love, synchronized in obedience, in no wise is there ANY disobedience, by Christ to His Father, EVER !
If you have the Holy Spirit IN YOU, Christ's Spirit, it will be evidenced by you being obedient & righteous, Christ being IN YOU, Gal 2:20 obedient = Righteous = the "right doing of Christ" manifesting thru you to the world. ( being an ambassador & disciple of Christ )
This is VERY simple logic (reasoning) very simple math, ( a=c. b=c :: a=b , a=b=c )
So ! From our many conversations, were you proclaim promote and teach, your misunderstandings, disobedience and un-righteousness, you are not exhibiting ( bearing fruit ) of the Holy Spirit of Christ.
By your teaching & preaching this Religion of Disobedience, and calling yourself Christian, this makes you a False Prophet, which I'm obligated by God, to expose and reprove, and to warn. Revelation 14:6-12
Please, Inquisitor, repent , and be baptized into a newness of life, into obedience to the God of Heaven, a new man ... come over to the winning side, in this battle for the souls of men, between Christ and His Angel and Satan and His Angles. I pray, Amen !
Acts 2:38
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, ( Disobedience ) and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." ( Reformation & Revival ) = ( Who will justify you & help you remain obedient, by faith and prayer )
"The Just shall live by Faith"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ~~ Blessings ~~ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Oh WoW !
You are saying here that "The Son" now has authority, while the Father doesn't ?
Please read what I just posted to Inquisitor above ... This same thing goes for YOU ...
You are right that Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord and read them to the people and sealed the covenant with blood. Nobody is dismissing that. It happened and it matters.
But here is what you cannot simply step around. What happened immediately after Exodus 24 changes everything. While Moses was on the mountain the people built a golden calf, worshipped it and descended into complete moral collapse at the very foot of the mountain where God had just spoken to them directly. (Exodus 32:1-6). That rebellion changed what came next permanently.
Moses himself reminded Israel of this in his farewell address just before they crossed into the promised land without him:
Remember and forget not how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt ye have been rebellious against the LORD. Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you. (Deuteronomy 9:7-8 KJV)
The additional laws, ordinances and sacrificial system that followed were God's direct response to that transgression. A temporary guardian added because of human sinfulness pointing forward to Christ. Scripture confirms this precisely:
Wherefore then serveth the law it was added because of transgressions till the seed should come. (Galatians 3:19 KJV)
And Moses himself declared the physical distinction God ordained between the covenant and the added law just before he died:
Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God so that it may remain there as a witness against you. (Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV)
Beside the ark. Not inside it. The book of the law written by Moses was placed beside the ark as a witness against the people because of their persistent transgression. But the Ten Commandments written by God's own finger were placed inside the ark where His very presence dwelt. Inside versus beside. God's writing versus Moses writing. The eternal covenant versus the ordinances added because of rebellion.
And God called what He wrote with His own finger the words of the covenant not once but five times throughout Scripture. (Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 5:2-3, Deuteronomy 10:4, 1 Kings 8:9). Five declarations. From God Himself. All pointing to the same thing. The covenant is the Ten Commandments.
That is why Exodus 34 matters. Not to ignore Exodus 24 but because God Himself declared what His covenant was in His own words five times and arranged everything physically to make that distinction permanently visible and impossible to miss.
And when God finished speaking the Ten Commandments directly to the entire assembly He did something He did with no other part of the law:
These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly with a great voice and he added no more. (Deuteronomy 5:22 KJV)
He added no more. God spoke the Ten Commandments directly. He wrote them Himself. He placed them inside the ark. He declared them His covenant five times. And then He stopped.
So the honest question is simply this. Why do you believe none of that is a distinction God Himself was deliberately and repeatedly making
And you can continue to disregard the rest of the very verse you cited (Matt. 5:18): "until all is fulfilled",
which his atonement did, thereby ushering in the NC/Gospel that supersedes the OC/law as the means of attaining salvation.
There are two points that have to happen before one can destroy the law of God that Jesus said He would not do.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Heaven and earth are still here- therefore removing something as small as a jot or tittle is against the spoken will of Jesus who is God.
Not all the prophecies are fulfilled- the second condition which Jesus plainly said He did not come to destroy.
Isaiah prophesied of a New Heaven and New Earth that Jesus would make- not fulfilled.
Paul prophesized that the dead in Christ would rise first and the saints alive at the time of Jesus Second Coming both would meet Him in the air - not fulfilled
Both Isaiah and John prophesized no more sin, no more death, all tears would be wiped away and the saints would be forevermore with Jesus- not fulfilled.
So clearly no one can remove one jot or tittle from the law because we have not been judged. John12:48 not fulfilled
Hence the very next first I would consider taking more serious....
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
And even in Exo24 which people seem to miss
Exo 24: 12 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them.”
The Ten Commandments is God's works- not mans. Written by God!
Exo32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.
God does not need correcting- we do.
Ecc 3:14 I know that whatever God does,
It shall be forever.
Nothing can be added to it,
And nothing taken from it.
God does it, that men should fear before Him.
Re point #1: Matt. 5:18 does not mean heaven and earth must pass away before the law is fulfilled!
Did you not agree that Jesus has fulfilled the law? But heaven and earth are still here.
Re point #2: The law refers to the Torah, NOT to the prophets!
Yes, some prophesies refer to the Second Coming.
Re point #3: Matt. 5:19 refers to the moral commandments summarized by love, NOT to the Levitical law that he fulfilled/ended
You need to take Heb. 7:11-10:1 more seriously!
Twas it, though?Sister, !You are right in the respect of my attitude is not altogether Christlike in my "Reproving, rebuking and exhorting" of which I confessed above as not being " done in a Christ-like character of deep humility, sorrowful love, and tender concern for the soul’s salvation — it is both loving and appropriate to explain to professed Christians (especially teachers or leaders)" who are functioning as False Prophets. I am doing this out of Love for Deno246, Mem, Psalm1, Inquisitor, Et Al ( as examples of False Prophets ) as fellow human beings, my neighbors of Matt 22:37. If I were being a false prophet, and / or having a spirit of Anti-Christ, I SURE WOULD WANT someone, anyone to point this out, to reproving me, for my souls sake ... Don't Ya Think ?
I need to pray for "greater repentance" and for less "self righteousness" and more "Christ Righteousness" This is the sanctification process, where we become less of ourselves (selfishness) and more Christ and His Righteousness dwelling IN US. Gal 2:20 The Holy Spirit is working mightily with me, I pray !!
Yet, My message of a warning to these people ( by calling them out as FPs ) and of having the spirit of Anti-Christ and false prophets, is still the same.
Thank you Sister for pointing out my unrighteousness, Twas needed and appropriate.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ~~ Blessings ~~ +++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your virtues are unparalleled. Perhaps such a matchless piety would be found better served in Syria or Sudan.
Yes it does Jesus said it plainly- your argument is with a much Higher Authority.
There is the law of Moses and the law of God the Ten Commandments. Which law did Jesus state plainly not a jot or tittle can pass from- the law inside the ark of the covenant in heaven Rev11:19 written by God or the ones written by man outside the ark. Sadly I do not understand why this is even an argument- its really with Jesus Himself.
What law was Jesus predicted to end? Lets let Scripture interpret Scripture
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
Jesus fulfilled this perfect by His death Heb10:1-10
So the law that not a jot or tittle can pass from can't be from all of the Torah.
So what's left? The Ten Commandments the Testimony of God Exo31:18 the works of God Exo32:16
What opposite prediction that Jesus came to fulfill that not a jot or tittle can pass from?
Isa 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
So the law that He said not a jot or tittle can pass from until both heaven and earth pass and ALL is fulfilled is the one He magnified- which law is that -we see He quoted in this very passage.
The law after He said whoever breaks the least of these commandments will be least in heaven (i.e. not there and He tells us why in this very passage)
He quoted from the Ten Commandments and related committing murder with the thoughts that lead to breaking this commandment- anger in the heart- magnifying His law and fulling His promise relating lust with the commandment to commit adultery why He said plainly whoever breaks or teaches to break such as the 4th commandments one will be least in heaven- Jesus Himself related this entire passage to heaven not the Cross and said why......in doing so breaking the least of these commandments one will be subject to sin and judgement which has not happened according to Jesus own testimony John12:28 James 2:10-12
So according to you Jesus came to destroy them despite He saying the opposite Mat5:17
The Ten Commandments is not the Levitical law- its the law of God Exo20:6 Deut4:13 again your argument is with a much Higher Authority- its the Testimony of God Exo31:18 the work of God Exo32:16 where no more was added to them Deut5:22 why are you adding something that God did not- His spoken will and Testimony. I don't think you realize this but you are speaking for God and He told us plainly not to Pro30:5-6
I do take it seriously in the context that most don't read and look at. Why did the priesthood law have to change? What tribe did the law require the priesthood to come from? What tribe did Jesus come from? Why this law the priesthood had to change all stated plainly so we don't have to add what we want it to say instead of allowing the Scripture to interpret Scripture.