Loss of salvation???

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Genez said:
Then, if you do something to displease Him?
He tosses you back to where you same from?
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You wouldn't be claiming man does not reap what he sows would you?
I hope not as that would be mocking God.

Are you one of them God mockers? clueless-scratching.gif

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.
 
Cameron143 said:
Well, let's go a little deeper.

What part do you suppose verses 20-22 of chapter 12 played in the translation in the NKJV of peoples?
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I suspect a translator might wonder whether Jesus was speaking literally, since not every human being responded to his crucifixion and/or ascension the same way.
 
Roger316 said:
I suspect a translator might wonder whether Jesus was speaking literally, since not every human being responded to his crucifixion and/or ascension the same way.
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Or...that He was speaking about people groups and not every single person.
 
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TruthDefender said:
Bad analogy.
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I hadn't seen that analogy. It is a bad one as you say. cc: @Genez

There's a difference between historic fact and permanence - which is part of the discussion about the perfect tense.

Will you stop being escaped whether or not that tunnel is destroyed if you decide to walk back into a burning house?

That first escape does not necessarily include permanence.

The Lord will not force you back into destruction - the question being discussed is whether or not you can choose to walk back in for whatever your reasons.
 
Genez said:
God saves permanently!

Go does not, only appear to save.

What sin can you commit after salvation that Jesus did not bear on the Cross?
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I think what people are getting confused over is what Christ did initially vs what we do after we are saved. This seems to be the biggest issue!

I’ve noticed a lot of proponents for the OSAS doctrine, which isn’t Scriptural. These people seem unable, or refuse to understand simple verses that specify salvation is based on faith. They refuse to believe that people havE lost faith and therefore have lost salvation.
 
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TruthDefender said:
They refuse to believe that people havE lost faith and therefore have lost salvation.
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This is a good observation.

I'm glad you're discussing it.

The title of the OP leads some to challenge where the Text says 'lose salvation'?

If we're going to discuss loss, then one of the better discussions on point is about faith and if one loses or walks from the faith, then....
 
sawdust said:
Again, you are not seeing the point. Whether one believes or doesn't, does not alter the truth that God saves by grace through faith.

If one loses their faith, as you claim, then the verse doesn't apply to them but it is still true. The verse is talking about how one is saved, not if one is saved.

Yes, it is clear, God's word remains true eternally whether people believe or not.
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I’m pretty sure you’re not understanding the verses, or the discussion!! lol

You seem to circumvent the real issue, and that is someone throwing away their faith after being saved. Do you understand?? It’s a simple concept with a deadly outcome!

YES, it is clear!!
 
Cameron143 said:
Or...that He was speaking about people groups and not every single person.
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Right, I was trying to explain why a translator might conclude that Jesus was talking about groups of people rather than individuals. As it turned out, the Gentile people were hearing the gospel soon after Pentecost. :cool:
 
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Roger316 said:
Right, I was trying to explain why a translator might conclude that Jesus was talking about groups of people rather than individuals. As it turned out, the Gentile people were hearing the gospel soon after Pentecost. :cool:
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They were also seeking for Him before.
 
TruthDefender said:
I’m pretty sure you’re not understanding the verses, or the discussion!! lol

You seem to circumvent the real issue, and that is someone throwing away their faith after being saved. Do you understand?? It’s a simple concept with a deadly outcome!

YES, it is clear!!
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That might be your discussion but that is not what the verse addresses nor was it the discussion that was in progress.

grace and peace.
 
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TruthDefender said:
The verse that you used (Eph. 2:8) even states that salvation is through faith.
So if one loses their faith, salvation is no longer there. Salvation is dependent on faith!

It is sad when people aren’t understanding this simple thing, because they’re trying to twist it into something that is not there. It’s very clear!
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I'm not sure if the negative is implied by what Paul said. Can we always take a positive statement and then treat its negation as if were automatically implied?
 
Roger316 said:
I'm not sure if the negative is implied by what Paul said. Can we always take a positive statement and then treat its negation as if were automatically implied?
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It's an argument from silence either way - which is pretty much the point of the discussion about the perfect tense.

If the perfect tense were to speak of permanence, then argument over, it's permanent. But the perfect tense doesn't speak of permanence.

If the perfect tense does not speak of permanence, which it doesn't, then permanence or loss is argument from silence and each position needs to be proven by other means - other words - other Scriptures...

Which is why you brought eternal life into play.

Which brought out more discussion as to what EL really is in all of its meaning and use and whether or not having it means we cannot walk away from it.

And so on and so on, etc., etc., etc...
 
studier said:
It's an argument from silence either way - which is pretty much the point of the discussion about the perfect tense.

If the perfect tense were to speak of permanence, then argument over, it's permanent. But the perfect tense doesn't speak of permanence.

If the perfect tense does not speak of permanence, which it doesn't, then permanence or loss is argument from silence and each position needs to be proven by other means - other words - other Scriptures...

Which is why you brought eternal life into play.

Which brought out more discussion as to what EL really is in all of its meaning and use and whether or not having it means we cannot walk away from it.

And so on and so on, etc., etc., etc...
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Why does Paul say to his listeners at one point, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?”
 
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Sipsey said:
He seems to be confident in his assertion that for himself and Christians in his audience have some sort of assurance of a future salvation.
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The question involved in this thread is why - because he believed in OSAS as it is taught by some - or because he believed that those who endure until the end will be saved as is taught by some - or because he believed in something else that may or may not be some modified form of either or both???
 
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studier said:
If the perfect tense were to speak of permanence, then argument over, it's permanent. But the perfect tense doesn't speak of permanence.
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Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Try to convince Paul that it wasn't permanent.



Try to convince the Lord Jesus Christ it wasn't permanent. Thomas tried. And the Lord Jesus showed Thomas the wounds. And Thomas bowed, "My Lord and My God."

You are kicking against the pricks.
 
Kroogz said:
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Try to convince Paul that it wasn't permanent.



Try to convince the Lord Jesus Christ it wasn't permanent. Thomas tried. And the Lord Jesus showed Thomas the wounds. And Thomas bowed, "My Lord and My God."

You are kicking against the pricks.
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Yes, I'm kicking against you guys.

Sorry. Rebound. But you opened the door wide.

Want to look at some verb tenses again, or maybe for the first time since you didn't with John & 1John?
 
studier said:
The question involved in this thread is why - because he believed in OSAS as it is taught by some - or because he believed that those who endure until the end will be saved as is taught by some - or because he believed in something else that may or may not be some modified form of either or both???
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. What do you figure Paul believed? Seems his opinion would supercede ours
 
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