Yes!And Revelation 3:10...
"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."
Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?
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Yes!And Revelation 3:10...
"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."
It says ALL TAKE THE MARK, not written in the book.
It says "they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their Testimony and they love not their lives unto death. (In other words they all died).
It says that power was given unto the antichrist to overcome the saints
Hard to wiggle out of what is written
The crisp definition of the Greek indeed declares "no wrath" quite unequivocally.
And Revelation 3:10...
"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."
But we need to remember that the Biblical exemplars (types) are also INTENDED to reveal the "no wrath" pattern.
-Enoch
-Rahab
-Rebekah
-Zipporah
-Asenath
-Esther
-Ruth
-Daniel
Removal / Translation Types
Enoch
- Taken by God before the Flood; clear picture of removal prior to judgment.
Elijah
- Caught up into heaven without death; another strong translation type.
Absence from Judgment Scene
Daniel
- Not present in Daniel 3; absent while the fiery judgment takes place.
Spared / Marked for Deliverance
Rahab
- Identified beforehand and preserved when Jericho falls; distinguished from those under wrath.
Bride / Union Before Crisis
Asenath
- Gentile bride given to Joseph before the famine; union before global distress.
Ruth
- Redeemed and brought into covenant blessing prior to kingdom establishment.
Rebekah
- Called out and united with Isaac before covenant continuation unfolds.
Zipporah
- Joined to Moses before the judgments on Egypt.
Abigail
- Aligns with David before he assumes kingship and executes judgment.
Positioned / Exalted Before Crisis
Joseph
- Elevated before the famine; placed above and ahead of the coming crisis.
Esther
- Installed as queen prior to the destruction decree; positioned for deliverance.
Heavenly Call Before Judgment (NT Pattern)
John the Apostle
- “Come up here” (Rev 4:1) before the main sequence of judgments; often seen as a type of upward call before wrath unfolds.
Set Apart Before Redemptive Events
Mary
- Chosen vessel prior to the unfolding of redemption; set apart in advance.
Tight Summary
This refined list highlights four consistent “no-wrath” patterns:
- Removed beforehand → Enoch, Elijah
- Absent from the scene → Daniel
- Marked and spared → Rahab
- United to the redeemer before crisis → Asenath, Ruth, Rebekah, Zipporah, Abigail
- Positioned in advance → Joseph, Esther
- Called upward before judgment → John
It says
Angels gather from heaven.
In the rapture, JESUS GATHERS FROM EARTH.
(Graves are not in earth's atmosphere.)
Neither are the ones raptured alive in 1 thes 4.
Then we have Rev 14:14.
A Jewish gathering DURING THE TRIB.
So there are 2 plain witnesses blowing a unrepairable hole in postrib doctrine.
Because Rev 14;14 has a gathering BEFORE THE POSTRIBBER DOCTRINE OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST rising supposedly at the white horses.
Postrib rapture doctrine is so unbelievably poor in bible knowledge .
It is literally impossible.
Enoch
- Taken by God before the Flood; clear picture of removal prior to judgment.
Elijah
- Caught up into heaven without death; another strong translation type.
Daniel
- Not present in Daniel 3; absent while the fiery judgment takes place.
Rahab
- Identified beforehand and preserved when Jericho falls; distinguished from those under wrath.
Asenath
- Gentile bride given to Joseph before the famine; union before global distress.
Ruth
- Redeemed and brought into covenant blessing prior to kingdom establishment.
Rebekah
- Called out and united with Isaac before covenant continuation unfolds.
Zipporah
- Joined to Moses before the judgments on Egypt.
Abigail
- Aligns with David before he assumes kingship and executes judgment.
Joseph
- Elevated before the famine; placed above and ahead of the coming crisis.
Esther
- Installed as queen prior to the destruction decree; positioned for deliverance.
John the Apostle
- “Come up here” (Rev 4:1) before the main sequence of judgments; often seen as a type of upward call before wrath unfolds.
Mary
- Chosen vessel prior to the unfolding of redemption; set apart in advance.
This refined list highlights four consistent “no-wrath” patterns:
- Removed beforehand → Enoch, Elijah
- Absent from the scene → Daniel
- Marked and spared → Rahab
- United to the redeemer before crisis → Asenath, Ruth, Rebekah, Zipporah, Abigail
- Positioned in advance → Joseph, Esther
- Called upward before judgment → John
God decided to spare them but you won't acknowledge all the people God had allowed to be martyred. You should.
The Bible explicitly names Stephen (stoned, Acts 7) as the first Christian martyr, while tradition and biblical allusions identify Abel (Genesis 4) as the first martyr overall. The New Testament records the deaths of James the Greater (beheaded, Acts 12), John the Baptist (beheaded, Matthew 14), James the Just (stoned, attested by Josephus), Paul (beheaded, tradition), and Peter (crucified, tradition).
Old Testament figures traditionally regarded as martyrs include Zechariah (stoned, 2 Chronicles 24), Jeremiah (traditionally stoned in Egypt), and Isaiah (traditionally sawn in two, alluded to in Hebrews 11:37). The Book of Revelation also mentions the "souls of those who had been slain" (Revelation 6:9).
Other apostles and early believers are reported to have been martyred, though details often come from church tradition rather than the biblical text itself:
Andrew (reportedly crucified)
Bartholomew (reportedly flayed or beheaded)
Philip (reportedly crucified)
Thomas (reportedly speared)
Jude (reportedly crucified)
Matthias (reportedly stoned or burned)
Mark and Luke (tradition varies)
Antipas (reportedly cooked alive in Pergamum, Revelation 2:13)
Ignatius of Antioch (thrown to lions)
Polycarp (reportedly burned and stabbed)
The Bible is explicit that MOST Christians will die in the GT. You all should NOT igmore this. Make up your mind to endure in Christ to the end, even if it means being martyred.
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First of all there are no "Christians" lingering within the 70th week of Daniel tribulation, because they are all RAPTURED beforehand.
In fact the term "Church" and "Christian" is nowhere to be found between Rev 6 thru 18.
However the 24 Elders are in fact residing in heaven at this time.
Furthermore, in Thessalonians Paul is declaring that we are not appointed to "ESCHAOLOGICAL WRATH". A very specific technical term.
What is "eschatological wrath"?
It is a wrath duly constituted per prophecy and for specific PURPOSE during a specific TIME and prosecuted by a specific PERSON.
-PURPOSE is the redeeming of Israel and the planet earth, harvesting of tribulation saints, and imprisoning Satan
-TIME is the 70th week of Daniel
-PERSON is the man of sin, the satan-man, the anti-christ.
Also consider that Paul NEVER warns Christians about entering into the 70th week tribulation. Ever.
On the contrary, the COMFORTS and CONSOLES Christians that they will NOT enter.
And he also excoriates and denounces the HERETICS who falsely preach that they do!
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Paul refutes the false doctrine that the Thessalonians had "missed the rapture" and are suffering within the 70th week of Daniel tribulation.
2Th 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
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Paul refutes the false doctrine that the "resurrection aka rapture of the Church" had already taken place.
And BTW, it is obvious that Hymenaeus and Philetus could ONLY be lying about the pre-Second Coming "quiet rapture" of believers TO THE AIR, as there is no way that Hymenaeus and Philetus could be selling the lie that this is the resurrection which only occurs after the Second Coming.
2Ti 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Why are you talking about the resurrection having happened already?
I'm talking about the Bible telling us plainly that most real Christians will die in the GT.
Please prepare and make up your minds not take to the mark. Nothing is worth losing Jesus.
Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.
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Show me the term "Christian" or "Church" anywhere between Rev 6 thru Rev 18.
They ain't there. They are no longer on the "EARTH", therefore they are not recorded in those passages during the 70th week of Daniel, when Gods judgements and wrath are coming like a snare upon those who dwell upon the whole EARTH.
Who ARE there (on the EARTH) are unsaved Israelites and gentiles. Some of whom DO come to believe during (and because of) the tribulation....due to preaching, awesome signs, angelic proclamations etc.
Luk 21:35 - For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Time to up your game kid. This is not rocket science.
I notice pretrib rests on taking the most allegorical passage, apoctalyptic visions, interpreting them through the pre-trib grid, then using that as an exegetical key to wrap the interpretation around straight forward passages. You are also assuming that there isn't repetition in Revelation, telling parts of the story over again from different angles. But let us look at verses from the passage.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
Notice, he talks about dying in the Lord.
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[<a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30942b" title="See footnote b">b</a>] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.
(That was all NIV, sorry, kind of in a hurry.)
Anyway, two harvests, but in the context of people dying in the Lord. The latter harvest is connected to blood and doesn't mention resurrection.
Be that as it may, in the straightforward passages in Paul's writings, there are things that occur at the parousia. One is the rapture and resurrection of the dead according to I Thessalonians 4. Another is the destruction of the lawless one in II Thessalonians 2:8. In fact in verse 1 of that chapter it speaks of the parousia of the Lord and our gathering unto him.
Now, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire toward the end of Revelation, written in sequence just before the 'first resurrection' part of the passage, right after a passage we would both take as a reference to the Second Coming. II Thessalonians 2 says the man of sin will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. So that is Revelation 19 stuff, right... not something from chapter 3 or 4?
Why would the parousia in II Thessalonians 2:8-- where the lawless one is destroyed-- be different from the parousia mentioned just several verses before--- the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him? It makes no sense to think that Paul is talking about two comings without telling us?
And in verse 1, doesn't our gathering unto Him refer to the rapture which occurs at His coming? Isn't it the same coming as the parousia in the rapture passage, I Thessalonians 4, where the dead in Christ and they which are alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His coming?
Also notice in Matthew 24 the angels gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Again, if you look outside, out of the city, you can see the 'end of heaven' where it meets earth... that is the horizon. Babylonians came from the end of heaven to Jerusalem... that is they came from far away. So the angels are gathering the elect at the coming of the Son of Man.
If we keep reading, the days of Noah verse, the no man knows the day or the hour verse, etc. are set at the coming of the Son of Man. We also see that this happens AFTER the tribulation. The coming of the Son of Man is post tribulational. The gathering of the elect is post tribulational.
Compare II Thessalonians 2:1-- the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him. Compare the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 to the trump of God in the rapture passage in I Thessalonians 4:16.
The burden of proof is one you that there are two comings (παρουσίες) or that Jesus extends the παρουσίες to last for seven years (in the air for seven years... seems a rather bizarre interpretation.) Otherwise, I don't really care to discuss further at this time.
Israel's best friend is America and is certainly not present when the antichrist appears'
If you have studied time from creation you would know we are nearing end time events
If you have studied time from creation you would know we are nearing end time events
That's probably going to be because the US as a nation will have been deceived by the anti-christ.
In other words at some point the liberals will be back in power in the US
The liberals love them some anti-christ.
Let's use the exact same 'logic' to disprove the pretrib theory.
Show me somewhere in those chapters where it says 'post rapture tribulational saints.' Aha! you can't do it.
Show me where it says 'pretribulational rapture' in the book of Revelation. Aha! you can't do it. Since the exact wording of the phrase that popped into my head does not appear in the text, that absolutely definitively proves that there is no pretribulational rapture. Isn't 'logic' a wonderful thing?
This is kind of like how Muslims argue about the issue of the divinity of Christ. But of course my previous paragraph there was satire.
If you look at II Thessalonians 1 it DOES tell us about Jesus being revealed from heaven giving the CHURCH rest from those who cause it TRIBULATION (look up the word 'trouble' in the Greek and compare to other passages.)
(Sorry for the CAPS [that] paragraph almost looked like the divinewatermark poster posted it.)
Huh? Quote something from that passage, an actual quote, that has any bearing on the topic.
Why don't you answer my most recent post on this topic. Can you show some evidence that 'parousia' changes in definition between II Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8, or that it is different from the parousia in the rapture passage (I Thessalonians 4)?
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Well, keep in mind when the antichrist makes the covenant America is not in the picture. This man who will become the antichrist does not deceive Israel till the middle of the 7 years. First 3 1/2 he is their protecter, gaining approval of the leaders of Israel while allowing the Temple to be rebuilt and showing himself to be christ-like. ( Messiah )
Since you don't believe what Jesus said:
John 6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.
Then the message isn't meant for you. So carry on with your delusion and don't prepare to build up your faith in Christ to endure to the end.
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That does not mean the US no longer exists
It does point to the US not being a leader or being influential on the world stage which they wouldn't be if the liberals had their way
There are 35 jewish members in congress with 10 in the Senate and most if not all are liberals. GOP also favorites Israel
Luke 17:33 context: time of JACOBS trouble.
Audience and affected parties: Israelites, who in the tribulation carry on with the preaching duties.
There are no Christians preaching the gospel in the tribulation! Our commission has ended, now the responsibility shifts to the 144,000 Israelites (and probably many others catch on eventually as disciples including gentile believers).
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Who are the ONLY group in the Bible that are resurrected while still living?
CHRISTIANS ONLY who are presently ensconced in the Church Age.
This corpus of believers of this age (called the Bride of Christ) are the realization and personification of the types of the Bride redeemed before crisis (such as Ruth) noted in the OT.
United to the redeemer before crisis → Asenath, Ruth, Rebekah, Zipporah, Abigail
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up ***together with them*** (WITH THE DEAD CHRISTIANS RESURRECTED JUST SPLIT SECONDS EARLIER) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (DIE PHYSICALLY), but we shall all be changed,
“Changed” (Greek: allagēsometha) = transformed, altered
1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
“Changed” (Greek: allagēsometha) = transformed, altered