There are actually two different Greek words for taken away by the flood and one taken and the other left
Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?
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I watched the video.
First Jimmy Evans points out the wrath of God at the sixth seal. But there are three things happening between the sixth seal and the seventh seal. The wrath is actually future when the sun moon and stars are darkened after the tribulation. People are hiding from the face of the Lamb because Jesus has already appeared (second coming already). Same as the great multitude that came out of the great tribulation in Rev. 7. I think the truly chronological event between the fifth and seventh seals is the sealing of the 144,000. If the chronological assumptions are incorrect, his argument doesn't work.
The first 5 seals were fulfilled during the Great Persecution in AD 303-313, when the Roman empire was ruled by four co-emperors, and the fourth one was Galerius, a cruel murderer rightly called Death. The price of wheat in Diocletian's Edict of Maximum Prices proves this.
The comfort in 1 Thessalonians is that those who died will resurrect, not that the living can escape. When John the Baptist preached about fleeing the wrath to come, he meant hell.
He says Rev. 13 would be bad for the church that God loves. God happens to love Tribulation Saints too, tells them to persevere, and promises blessing as comfort (Rev. 14:12-13).
It is good to pray to escape all these things.
He talked about how Lot and Noah were delivered on a day BEFORE disaster and not on the day when judgment came. A careful reading of Genesis 7:12-13 and 18:23-24 will show you they were saved on the SAME day that disaster fell.
He said people will not be at peace and cannot live normal lives during the tribulation. Since COVID, we already live in a new normal.
I respect his attitude towards those who disagree with him.
All I am asking is who is taken before the flood.
Jesus said half of a group is taken and half left before the flood.
That "before the flood" dynamic, and the setting, and WHO is taken, is canononized ETERNALLY.
Are you saying "no postrib rapture", or "no rapture at all"?
You are assuming so much.
Hoping the verses do not say exactly what they do.
Break it down.
I am presenting what is there.
You are generalizing, and it appears that you have some other starting place.
...and that starting place is,"Ijust don't agree with a pretrib rapture"
Break down the noah analogy honestly.
The components I brought to you are fact.
Every component a fact.
I am going to say you are going to back out.
Once the covers are pulled back, it is crystal clear.
Note that most postribbers reframe the 144,000 and have no idea that they are firstfruits.
Then when I get them to examine it they can not honestly deal with who the 144,000 are, or apply the firstfruits dynamic properly.
Then they skip Rev 14;14, which is a gathering, BEFORE the dead rising first", of 1 thes 4.
Postrib rapture doctrine, failed to notice, if the rapture is postrib, then the dead in Christ rise AFTER the living , unless Jesus was confused.
Iow, 1 thes 4 is either in harmony with Rev 14:14, or it isn't.
I say it is.
Postrib doctrine says no.
Yep.
And that point works against them being "wicked taken before the flood".
But either way, postribbers are claiming a "wicked person rapture" before the trib.
Flat out bizarre how one small goof in their doctrine sinks the entire deal.
You are creating an addition coming on the Son of man when Jesus already clearly established which event he was talking about.
Where is the evidence from any scripture to posit an additional coming of Jesus? The pre tribulational rapture theory does that without any evidence and then reinterprets passages of scripture around that even passages like this where it obviously defies the context.
From my perspective you still I'm not being clear and what's your the issue is so I'm going to have to gas based on conversations with other people.
Being taken it's not a good thing. It's being taken in judgment the flood came and took them all away.
And let me also add that being taken happened as the flood started as the water took the people away. Those people doing wrong or taken away and the others were saved by the flight. Being gathered or raptured is a good thing but being taken away by the flood is a bad thing. It's not bad for God to execute judgment but it's experientially bad on the person who's experiencing it.
But stop for a minute and think what you're saying. Who does the passage say was taken before the flood even started? that isn't even make sense. Of course I'm not going to know what you're talking about.
2 words can be used for the same thing. Sometimes it's useful to know the exact terminology that's used but other times are just using a language and they can refer to the same thing with a different ways. Do you have any reason to argue that this is not the case in this passage?
1. Jesus comes to take His church, where we meet Him in the air. (Pre Great Tribulation.)
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
2. He returns to the earth to establish His millenial reign.
"Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward."
"And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one." Zechariah 14: 3-4, 9.
" after the trib"
I would say you guys wore that one out.
That is what it says.
"After the trib"
Then Jesus says his coming , AND GATHERING will be like the setting "BEFORE THE FLOOD"
NOW, show me in your theory, how all the components, THAT JESUS GAVE, in "the coming before the flood, and the gathering before the flood" apply in any possible way, to a postrib rapture and coming.
I will wait to see this.
You are telling me there is a wicked people gathering before the flood/ trib.?
Read EXACTLY what it says, leave out no components of Jesus analogy, and tell me who is taken.
Don't brush it off, reframe it, or tell me how I don't know what I am saying.
Forget how defective I am.
Make mat 24 fit your doctrine.
I will wait for a real and genuine attempt by you.
You keep accusing me of not making sense.
Are You actually able to engage someone without the condescension?
Yes, stop and ACTUALLY LOOK AT WHAT IT SAYS.
You seem to think glossing over Jesus analogy and accusing me of batting the air, covers up your inability to SIMPLY READ WHAT IS THERE?????
REALLY????
Your THEORY, That was made up years ago, is that there is a wicked people rapture before the flood.
Notice in your post, you are painting a picture of wicked people taken at the start of the flood.
You are trying to apply "one taken, one left behind", to all the world immediately destroyed.
.....and applying that to the tribulation.
You are declaring, in your doctrines cover up job, that there is a pretrib rapture of wicked people.
But JESUS SAID "half are taken".
Well if we believe Jesus was confused, we will keep holding to a " wicked people rapture, PRETRIB, where half the population is saved and half wicked"
( one taken, one left behind)
See where omission takes you?
Once the omission stops, your theory is way way off.
May I ask if you think there is any evidence at all at what you just pointed out to answer the question, or are you agreeing with me? It is not clear to me and I don't know your eschatology.
I asked:
"Where is the evidence from any scripture to posit an additional coming of Jesus? The pre tribulational rapture theory does that without any evidence and then reinterprets passages of scripture around that even passages like this where it obviously defies the context."
The word translated 'meet' in I Thessalonians 4:17 is used on a number of occasions in Greek to refer to going out to meet someone who is 'heading your way' and escort him to where you came from. Sometimes this is an official context, a dignitary or such.
Liddell–Scott–Jones, A Greek-English Lexicon is one of the major dictionaries for ancient Greek. In the entry for ἀπάντησις, that lexicon lists ordinary “meeting” usage, cites Polybius 5.26.8 and Diodorus 18.59, and separately notes an “escort” sense at Polybius 5.43.3. A second major source, Moulton and Milligan’s Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, says the word had become something like a technical term for the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary. That does not mean the noun itself always guarantees a return to the exact place the greeters came from, but it does show that the word naturally fits scenes where people go out to meet an arriving person and then accompany him onward.
Classical example 1: Polybius 5.26.8
Greek: εἰς τὴν ἀπάντησιν
Transliteration: eis tēn apantēsin
Translation: “for the meeting / reception”
In this scene, leading men at Corinth stir up the young men to go out in reception of the arriving figure. The point is not a random encounter but a public welcome.
Classical example 2: Diodorus Siculus 18.59.3
Greek: ἀπάντησιν … ἐποιήσαντο τῷ Εὐμενεῖ
Transliteration: apantēsin … epoiēsanto tō Eumenei
Translation: “they made a meeting / reception for Eumenes”
Here Eumenes’ supporters go out some distance to receive him. Again, the scene is one of deliberate reception, not mere accidental contact.
New Testament example: Acts 28:15 (KJV)
KJV: “And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns...”
Greek: ἦλθαν εἰς ἀπάντησιν ἡμῖν
Transliteration: ēlthan eis apantēsin hēmin
Translation: “they came out to meet us”
The believers come out from Rome to meet Paul on the road; then the narrative continues into Rome. This is a very natural example of going out to meet an arriving party and then continuing with them.
Matthew 25:6 (KJV)
KJV: “Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.”
Greek: ἐξέρχεσθε εἰς ἀπάντησιν αὐτοῦ
Transliteration: exerchesthe eis apantēsin autou
Translation: “go out to meet him”
Brief explanation: in the parable, the virgins go out to meet the bridegroom, and the story then moves to going in with him. That narrative flow again fits reception rather than mere encounter.
So lets look at I Thessalonians 4. The Lord Jesus returns, and we go up to meet him and escort Him back. That's the most straightforward interpretation, that fits the wording, IMO, and not just my view of course. That was a view that existed before 1827 or whenever Darby came up with his interpretation.
Psalm 1
Please explain what verse you are referring to and why you would attribute this idea to me.
I would take the passage to mean some are taken in judgment at the coming of the Son of man, which the passage clearly says happens after the tribulation which the passage calls 'great tribulation'.
We see earlier in the passage that the elect are gathered after the tribulation.
Now, you show me where the passage turns the coming of the Son of man into two events. Show me in the passage where the switch takes place, and where Jesus indicates that He is referring to two separate events called the coming of the Son of man. You are the one with the new interpretation. The burden of proof is on you.
QUOTE
"Please explain what verse you are referring to and why you would attribute this idea to me.
I would take the passage to mean some are taken in judgment at the coming of the Son of man, which the passage clearly says happens after the tribulation which the passage calls 'great tribulation'."
I believe what it says.
It says there is a gathering BEFORE THE TRIB/FLOOD.
THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS.
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
1)Coming before the flood
2)Gathering before the flood
3)Setting before the flood
4)Percentage taken before the flood
That is what it says.
You say it says no such thing.
Specifially address it.
You have refused to.
QUOTE
"I would take the passage to mean some are taken in judgment at the coming of the Son of man, which the passage clearly says happens after the tribulation which the passage calls 'great tribulation'."
Are you serious?? ?
We both agree Jesus comes after the trib with the saints
....or maybe you are aware of the saints being with him?
Jesus makes the shift to a "BEFORE THE FLOOD GATHERING."
Surely you can not honestly dodge the words of Jesus "BEFORE THE FLOOD"???
( "before" is different that "after"
AND THE PRETRIB SETTING
AND THE PERCENTAGE TAKEN?
You are hitting around it and maybe just being obtuse?
Mat 24 has a coming and gathering before the flood/trib.
You are telling me several times "it is the wicked taken"
Then, telling me the coming, and I assume rapture, is after the trib/flood, and that those taken preflood/pretrib is a wicked people rapture.
Your beliefs?
If not , then verify the wicked taken pretrib
I agree that such a belief is bizarre, but who believes that pretribbers "a "wicked person rapture" before the trib."
I can't speak for all pretribbers, but I take the passages about 'one shall be taken and the other left' to refer to events that occur at the coming of the Son of man AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS as the passage says.
People who do not hold to your eschatology do not read your eschatology into the passages. They aren't pretribbers.
I am also open when it comes to eschatology, and hold certain points tentatively, but pre-trib is pretty low on the list as being a possible alternative. It's more far-fetched than partial preterism, but much less so than full preterism, IMO.
I'd like you to explain how you think the parousia changes to a different even between II Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8.... and why does II Thessalonians 1 set the judgment and wrath on unbelievers at the same time as giving the saints rest from those causing tribulation?
QUOTE
"People who do not hold to your eschatology do not read your eschatology into the passages. They aren't pretribbers."
Give an example.
Show me one thing I "read into it" that is not plainly written.