Loss of salvation???
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You've brought out some important clarifications. These kinds of subtle differences are what make for deception, tiny changes in theme or wording, and the like.
Good post!
Much love!
Nice.
I made my own list somewhere around year 2,000 and came up with the same 1,000+ number.
Last I recall looking, there are close to 600 just in the epistles.
You are so fond of exegetical answers, I would have expected one from you this time.
We were discussing the Parable of the house builder. To summarize, we have seen that the parable speaks about two foundations, two houses, and a storm. The house built on rock will survive a storm.
Two foundations:
- rock
- sand
- House built on rock
- House built on sand
- House built on rock survives
I maintain that the teaching of Jesus is the foundation
The parable
Thanks
Jesus' teaching in Matthew 7:24-27 is speaking about 2 persons...
one acts on the words of Jesus.
One does not act on the words of Jesus.
You're adding to the word of God,,,
as usual.
Please post the scripture and explain it verse by verse.
There is no talk about saved or unsaved.
Jesus did not mention the word SAVED....
this is YOUR fabrication.
You are adding to the word of God.
Who mentioned loss of salvation?
You think Matthew 7:24-27 is about loss of salvation?
It's about OBEYING JESUS.
Those that obey are building on a rock.
Those that do not obey are building on sand.
Please post the scripture and explain what it is teaching verse by verse.
Doesn't say what you THINK it says.
And, apparently, you cannot explain this scripture.
I don't read anything about faith enduring or false faith.
You might be getting Matthew 7:24-27 mixed up with other scripture that is not under discussion here.
The storm is divine judgment.
It's good to be like the wise man that ACTED on the words of Jesus.
Whose house did not fall when the rains came.
Have to leave some room for other to actually examine and explain Scripture rather than just maintain something about it.
Show me why you maintain this.
I'd probably look again at v.24 & v.26 and see what the only difference is between being on rock vs. on sand.
In the list they're broken down by gospel/letter, if I remember.
What some don't seem to understand is that those that claim to BELIEVE in Jesus are actually
proclaiming that they will OBEY these commands.
A person cannot say the believe in Jesus but then make statements about faith alone, or grace alone,
or obeying is not necessary, or we obey because we want to at any given time.....etc.
There is a gross misunderstanding re the nature of God,,,the Almighty,,,the Creator of everything.
When God speaks....
it's always a command that requires obedience.
You are so fond of exegetical answers, I would have expected one from you this time.
We were discussing the Parable of the house builder. To summarize, we have seen that the parable speaks about two foundations, two houses, and a storm. The house built on rock will survive a storm.
Two foundations:
Two houses
- rock
- sand
Storm: Final judgment
- House built on rock
- House built on sand
- House built on rock survives
I maintain that the teaching of Jesus is the foundation
The teaching of Jesus is not the foundation.
The teaching of Jesus is what the men can either ACT ON
or
NOT ACT ON.
The wise man ACTED on the teaching of Jesus.
The foolish man DID NOT ACT on the teaching of Jesus.
So the foundations CHANGE.
If the teaching of Jesus was the foundation...
then there would only be ONE FOUNDATION...
NOT two.
You'd probably appreciate that the more I worked on that list going through all the different grammatical forms a command can be stated in, the more I saw many of the conditional statements as in essence being commands presented in language that makes us reason and come up with it ourselves.
Renewal of the minds....
Renewing the mind....
another command....even if not from Jesus.
But Paul said that the renewing of the mind will make us know what the will of God is.
The NT is repleat with knowing what the will of God is and doing it.
Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Aligns with:
Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Both passages are teaching that we are to know the will of God and to DO it.
I didn't know how many commands Jesus issued until you mentioned it just now. Bear in mind, though, I do not deny that Jesus issued commands or that Christians are obligated to obey them. In my mind, that has always gone without saying.
I take issue with those who suggest that we ought to carry out a command, whether we know why the command was given or not. Given that the Sermon on the Mount is a commentary on the Torah, we surmise that the purpose of the commandments is to illuminate the Torah, highlighting God's values, desires, and righteous character.
To illustrate the idea, I offer this parable that I heard in church by one of my teachers.
A father commands his son not to swing the baseball bat in the house because it can hurt someone or cause damage. From this commandment, the son learns that his father places a high value on human life and personal property.
Suppose a fire starts in the house, and the son decides to break a window and jump out of the burning building. In this instance, the son disobeys his father's rule about the bat, knowing that breaking the window to save himself and others would respect his father's values.
The father’s rule about not swinging the bat in the house teaches the son something deeper than the rule itself: it reveals the father’s values — the protection of life and property. When a fire breaks out, the son breaks the window with the bat not because he rejects the rule, but because he understands the principle behind it. By acting to preserve life, he honors the very value the rule was meant to express. True obedience, then, is not rigid rule‑keeping but alignment with the heart and intention behind the command.
Jesus commands are like that.
Jesus’ commands in the Sermon on the Mount function exactly like the father’s rule in my story: they are concrete expressions of deeper values, not arbitrary rules to be followed woodenly.
They reveal what God cares about — reconciliation, purity of heart, truthfulness, mercy, generosity, trust, love of enemies, and wholehearted devotion. The point is not to obey each command in a rigid, literalistic way, but to be shaped by the values those commands express.
Just as the son honored his father’s intent by breaking the window to save a life, a disciple honors Jesus not by mechanically applying every line, but by acting in ways that align with the kingdom values revealed by the commands.
In other words:
The Sermon on the Mount is not a rulebook; it is a revelation of God’s heart.
Obedience is not rule‑keeping but living in harmony with the values Jesus is teaching.
Hopefully that clears things up.
It's very clear, isn't it..
I always assume Apostolic commands and Apostolic summons are from Christ, unless stated (1Cor7:10, 1Cor7:12, 1Cor7:25 cf. 1Cor7:40, 1Thes4:2)
Of course. The question on the table is whether one must "obey" a command even if they don't understand it. I explained to @studier that the commandments of Jesus found in the Sermon on the Mount are intended to teach us about God's will for mankind and his values. If we fail to understand Jesus Commandments, we fail to learn what God values.
I don't think I am adding anything to the word of God. What else does it mean for a house to stand after a storm than to be saved from the storm?
Jt's not strictly about obeying Jesus. The parable describes the building of a house. What else can it mean to build a house than to build a life that will survive the final judgment?
We don't easily dismiss the preposition. Those who act on Jesus' word are LIKE a man who builds on rock.
Right. But notice that the house is completely finished before the storm comes. This implies that the storm represents the final judgment.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
Scenario 1:
When you build on the foundation of Jesus Christ (doctrine), your house will be maintained through storms that life throws at you.
If you hear His word, but decide to build on some other foundation, other than Jesus Christ, the storms that life will throw at you will cause complete devastation.
Scenario 2:
Hearing and doing His word is like a wise man that built his house on the rock. It’s solid and indestructible.
Hearing and not doing is like the foolish man who built his house on the sand/ beach. The winds and water came up and destroyed the house.
As clear as mud.
Analogies are horrible.
Man is not God.
So, instead of an analogy,,,
how about giving us a sample from Jesus' teachings?
Why not explain, instead, how Jesus made HIS commandments even more demanding than The Law?
Seems to me actual adultery is not even the sin anymore...
seems to me Jesus is more demanding...
HE said lust is adultery.
So please give some examples about how Jesus didn't really mean what He said but was commenting about why we are given rules...or something or other...whatever you said because you keep moving the goal post every time you come to a dead end.
Does help. Thanks.
Law and commandments are a much deeper topic than most really think about. Ultimately it's all instruction about God and who and what we're made to be in His likeness. Of course there's depth to it and the reason I don't think anyone really understands it in it's depth is because no one really understands Him in His depth.
But, there's also the basics part of it as I just posted from Luke17. There is the sense where He like any good Lord or Father says, 'listen, just do what I say' and will enforce it with strict disciplinary training which is from a Hebrew word being referred to in the discipline of sons section of the NC.
It's like the son in your story deciding for himself that he understands the heart of his father and decides he'll just swing away no matter his father's command because he's sure he can do so without damage or harm. That's presumption and willful sin and in the context of the Word it's unbelief and departure from who the father in that bat-swinger's household is.
You might appreciate the beginning on one book about God's Law I read decades go. The author either at the beginning of his first chapter or in his preface in effect said, 'I'm going to begin by saying that nobody understands God's Law.' Then he wrote about 300+ pages trying to explain what he thought he knew about it.
It's a big topic but obeying God is conceptually very simple. Just do what He says because of who He is and over time in Christ in Spirit it becomes more and more natural for His Children.
IMO it's really not an issue that should even remotely be debated.
Jesus is saying 'A' is like 'B', where something in the parable is similar to his target idea. In this case, the act of building is the same or similar to acting on what Jesus taught.
In the parable, “building” is Jesus’ metaphor for the entire process of shaping your life around His teaching, and “acting on His words” is the thing that corresponds to building on the rock.
We are REQUIRED to obey the commands of Jesus whether or not we want to...
whether or not we understand the command.
God knows better than we do what is good for us.
When you told your son not to swing the bat in your house,,,
he most probably did NOT understand WHY you were giving him this rule.
But isn't it a good idea that he obeyed you a anyway?
Do you ask forgiveness from God when you sin?
Why?
He already died for you and all your sins.
We do it because God said so....no need to understand why.
HOW is the house built?
You've never replied to that question.
Preposition?
Like?
This isn't English grammar Roger.
It's soteriology.
It's a matter of life or death for someone's soul.
You are not teaching correct Christian doctrine.
Teachers will be held to a higher standard.