Loss of salvation???

[SabbathBlessing]

I asked you WHO are the persons outside of scripture that you mentioned.
I don't know WHO you're speaking of.

The ones who changed God's times and laws- God Sabbath Dan7:25 He warned us about that sadly most follow without even realizing it.

Jesus IS the Sabbath.

You will not find this in our Bibles. Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbaths, He is not the 4th commandment.

Last points:

1. The Noahic Laws were for all mankind.

1. Not to worship idols
2. Not to curse God.
3. Not to commit murder.
4. Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
5. Not to steal
6. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal
7. To establish courts of justice.

So we can covet? Not honor our mother and father? Do evil according to the LORD? There is no Scripture that says what you're claiming. Noah was a servant of the LORD and a servant serves the LORD the way the LORD asks Isa56:6 invited to everyone because God's commandments are for God's people Rev14:12- His version, not mans.

2. The OT commandments were for the Jews only:

Exodus 31:12-18 CEV
The Sabbath belongs to me. Now I command you and your descendants to always obey the laws of the Sabbath. By doing this, you will know that I have chosen you as my own. 14-15 Keep the Sabbath holy. You have six days to do your work, but the Sabbath is mine, and it must remain a day of rest. If you work on the Sabbath, you will no longer be part of my people, and you will be put to death.

16Every generation of Israelites must respect the Sabbath. 17 This day will always serve as a reminder, both to me and to the Israelites, that I made the heavens and the earth in six days, then on the seventh day I rested and relaxed.

18When God had finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two flat stones on which he had written all his laws with his own hand.

So the first sentence of this bad translations says the Sabbath belongs to Me- not Jews- God. I will go with this translation even though its not word for word which is what I prefer.

When is God relating this to:

17 This day will always serve as a reminder, both to me and to the Israelites, that I made the heavens and the earth in six days, then on the seventh day I rested and relaxed.

Back to Creation when God said the Sabbath started

Exo 20: 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God made the seventh day and the Sabbath day interchangeable from Creation. He made man on the sixth day before the very first Sabbath, before Jew, before Israel, before Levi- Just man and God, the Sabbath was made for mankind Mark2:27-28 for everyone Isa56:6 its not that our LORD is not clear is believing His Words.

The God of Creation is the only God we are called to worship and we can't separate Creation from the Sabbath, the LORD of the Sabbath- our Creator Col1:16

Rev 14:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

We are not descendants of the Israelites.

Are you not a son/daughter of God and heir to the promises? If Israel was meant only to be literal these would say Adam.

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Hos 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD:

5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Will not be responding ot any other posts about keeping the Sabbath.
It is your right to do so and It's the right of others to follow their conscience.

Jesus is God - He never came to destroy His own laws that are in heaven under His mercy seat Rev11:19 not a jot or tittle can pass why He taught breaking the least of these commandments and teaching others is the wrong direction Mat5:17-30- Jesus who is God same God as the OT told mankind to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God quoting from the OT instead of deleting what God said Mat4:4 the greatest commandments are the Ten Commandments summarized where God tells us how we are to love Him Exo20:6 why His name not anyone else is in the first four commandments.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor [b]serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting[c] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I wish you well.

 

[HeIsHere]

Not what I asked He.
It's apparent to all that you do not believe God requires any type of obedience/performance from us.



Here's the question again:

HOW LONG DOES JUSTIFICATION LAST?

The ACT of justifying a person...
The legal act of justification....

HOW LONG does it last?

Agree, I am not Catholic.

Your question is "leading" which makes it not genuine.
Next.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

There may be "several different Sabbaths in the Bible", but the meaning of Col. 2:16-17 applies to them all.
Do not kick against the goad of the Gospel.

Well you could actually demonstrate this by what Paul is quoting because that was not his conclusion, it might be yours, but not Paul's. I have yet to have one person actually address the context to this passage and what Paul was quoting from. Certainly your conclusion was not his 1Cor7:19KJV Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 17:2 Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 because it was not Jesus who matters more than anything John14:15 John15:10 Mat5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Luke4:16 Isa56:6-7 Mat24:20 Isa66:22-23

 

[HeIsHere]

Know what's MOST amusing?

You've just stated above that once a person comes to believe in God...

they're good behavior/works/performance should end.

Look at how you framed the sentence:

IOW, you said:

WHEN PERSONAL PERFORMANCE ENDS
A PERSON IS DECLARED JUSTIFIED.


Am I right @studier ?

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
let us go on to perfection,
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:1

 

[Toknow]

Agree, I am not Catholic.

Your question is "leading" which makes it not genuine.
Next.

Incorrect theology always presents problems.

You might want to stop hating Catholics and address the issue at hand.
What Catholicism has to do with this is a mystery that can only be solved by
believing that you do not care to address the issue at hand.

I'll answer it for you since you seem to be unable to

OR

Are afraid of leading questions.
Which is interesting.
I'm willing to answer ANY question you may have.

So this is how long JUSTIFICATiON lasts:

ONE SPLIT SECOND.

Right after justification, we move on to sanctification .

You may want to reply to this question...or you might think it's leading.
We'll see...

What does SANCTIFICATION mean?


I may or may not be replying till later.
In the meantime I do wish you a joyous Easter in case I don't come back.

 

[Toknow]

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
let us go on to perfection,
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:1

Another leading question:

WHAT ARE DEAD WORKS?

The works that YOU do as a Christian person...
are THEY dead?


Your verses:

Hebrews 6:1-6 CEV
1We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

2And we shouldn't need to keep teaching about baptisms+ or about the laying on of hands+ or about people being raised from death and the future judgment.

3Let's grow up, if God is willing.

4-6But what about people who turn away after they have already seen the light and have received the gift from heaven and have shared in the Holy Spirit? What about those who turn away after they have received the good message of God and the powers of the future world? There is no way to bring them back. What they are doing is the same as nailing the Son of God to a cross and insulting him in public!

 

[TruthDefender]

Who are the persons outside of scripture?

Do YOU believe keeping the Sabbath is a moral law or a ceremonial law?




I wish persons would stop saying that if we break one commandment we've broken them all.
This must sound really silly to non-christians reading along.
If a steal a book from a store it's not the same as mudering someone.
If I lie about someone and ruin their reputation it's not the same as breaking my marriage vows.

James ust meant the we break our fellowship with God when we sin.
And he doesn't even state if it would be one sin or 10 sins because this is not his point.

What he means is that those under the law had to keep all of the law.
All of the law: The moral law, the ceremonial law, the civil law.

We are no longer under the Law but under the Law of Christ.
Christ is our Sabbath....not a day.

Christ established the Sabbath....He is now our Sabbath.

God rested from His works....a shadow of things to come in His Son.
We now rest from the Law...jesus is our rest.

2 Colossians 2:16-19
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day
—
17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Jesus fulfilled the Law.
He has also fulfilled the Sabbath Law.
We are no longer under the Law....


Mark 2:27-28
27Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28“So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Ellen White taught that the Sabbath must still be obeyed.
If a person is practicing the Christian RELIGION,,,the he should practice what the Christian religion teaches.

It does NOT teach Sabbath worship.

“For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[TruthDefender]

Another leading question:

WHAT ARE DEAD WORKS?

The works that YOU do as a Christian person...
are THEY dead?


Your verses:

Hebrews 6:1-6 CEV
1We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why we ought to have faith in God.

2And we shouldn't need to keep teaching about baptisms+ or about the laying on of hands+ or about people being raised from death and the future judgment.

3Let's grow up, if God is willing.

4-6But what about people who turn away after they have already seen the light and have received the gift from heaven and have shared in the Holy Spirit? What about those who turn away after they have received the good message of God and the powers of the future world? There is no way to bring them back. What they are doing is the same as nailing the Son of God to a cross and insulting him in public!

Dead works are those things you did in the world, sin, before you became His servant.

 

[GWH]

I asked you WHO are the persons outside of scripture that you mentioned.
I don't know WHO you're speaking of.


Jesus IS the Sabbath.


Last points:

1. The Noahic Laws were for all mankind.

1. Not to worship idols
2. Not to curse God.
3. Not to commit murder.
4. Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
5. Not to steal
6. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal
7. To establish courts of justice.

2. The OT commandments were for the Jews only:

Exodus 31:12-18 CEV
The Sabbath belongs to me. Now I command you and your descendants to always obey the laws of the Sabbath. By doing this, you will know that I have chosen you as my own. 14-15 Keep the Sabbath holy. You have six days to do your work, but the Sabbath is mine, and it must remain a day of rest. If you work on the Sabbath, you will no longer be part of my people, and you will be put to death.

16Every generation of Israelites must respect the Sabbath. 17 This day will always serve as a reminder, both to me and to the Israelites, that I made the heavens and the earth in six days, then on the seventh day I rested and relaxed.

18When God had finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two flat stones on which he had written all his laws with his own hand.




We are not descendants of the Israelites.

Will not be responding ot any other posts about keeping the Sabbath.
It is your right to do so and It's the right of others to follow their conscience.

Actually, Christians are the true Jews, spiritually circumcised (Rom. 2:28-29).
Also, the OT Torah commands were of two types: 1. Noahic/universal/moral/Golden Rule,
and 2. Levitical/Jew-specific/for the purpose of providing Messiah for the potential salvation of all sinners.
Messiah's atonement ended the Levitical sacrificial system and His ascension began the fulfillment of prophecy
pertaining to the law of the Spirit (Rom. 8:2) indwelling believers' hearts (Rom. 5:5) and producing righteous fruit (Gal. 5:22-23),
which coincides with morality/divine love (1John 4:13-21).

 

[GWH]

@studier

Re post 11, 159 to the other member.....

I find wording to be important and would like your opinion:

I know that works do not save.
Agreed.

But the other member seems to be saying that
once we stop being "nice" then we can be justified.

or V V we are justified when we stop being nice.

It just sounds wrong to me.

I think he meant when we stop trying to be justified or earn salvation by doing good works,
but I might be wrong.

 

[Toknow]

I think he meant when we stop trying to be justified or earn salvation by doing good works,
but I might be wrong.

I know what he meant.
But we should be careful what we say when it's in regard to salvation.

It always sounds like good deeds are not necessary....but they are.

 

[studier]

JUSTIFICATION declared when personal performance ends.

Know what's MOST amusing?

You've just stated above that once a person comes to believe in God...

they're good behavior/works/performance should end.

Look at how you framed the sentence:

IOW, you said:

WHEN PERSONAL PERFORMANCE ENDS
A PERSON IS DECLARED JUSTIFIED.


Am I right @studier ?

@studier

Re post 11, 159 to the other member.....

I find wording to be important and would like your opinion:

I know that works do not save.
Agreed.

But the other member seems to be saying that
once we stop being "nice" then we can be justified.

or V V we are justified when we stop being nice.

It just sounds wrong to me.

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
let us go on to perfection,
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:1

I think he meant when we stop trying to be justified or earn salvation by doing good works,
but I might be wrong.

Poor wording in my opinion - and I got a Spirit check when I first read it - but I suppose the @HeIsHere clarification means "personal performance" meant dead works in unbelief as @GWH seems to understand it.

Especially on threads like these, this whole works issue is much confused.

Honestly, I don't like much of any wording used by most of us when discussing this. And less & less do I like this purely legal understanding of being deemed righteous by God.

It's seemingly legal language translated from a legal culture (Greek), but these concepts are relational and found in a living, mutually abiding relationship with God by grace through faith - which is faith-obedience > faithfulness/love, etc.

We've used a bunch of time in other areas of Scriptures on this loss topic and then trended into law for various reasons and side-adventures. In the law side of things having to do with this thread re: loss, there are more things to discuss in regard to loss, or better stated, withdrawal.

@HeIsHere and most OSAS thinking sees things like justification to be one time forever.

I think it's all relational being in Christ in Spirit and remaining in Christ in Spirit in faith-obedience-good works with God providing His capacities for us to both will and work for His good pleasure in accomplishing our salvation by cooperative work with Him in continuing obedience to Him which is faith (Phil2:12-13).

 

[GWH]

I know what he meant.
But we should be careful what we say when it's in regard to salvation.

It always sounds like good deeds are not necessary....but they are.

Yes, and even that truth needs to be said carefully, because people's good deeds will vary in accordance with their gifts and interests, but they all should be some form of love.

 

[Toknow]

Yes, and even that truth needs to be said carefully, because people's good deeds will vary in accordance with their gifts and interests, but they all should be some form of love.

What's a good deed?
ANYTHING that we do that is pleasing to God.
Anything that we do to make the Kingdom of God more visible to persons we encounter...
even if they don't even know it...
good is good.

Jesus said to be like a city on top of a hill....everyone can see that city.
He said to be like a lampstand.....it gives light to everything around it.

Matthew 5:14-16 CEV
14 You are the light for the whole world. A city built on top of a hill cannot be hidden, 15 and no one lights a lamp and puts it under a clay pot. Instead, it is placed on a lampstand, where it can give light to everyone in the house. 16 Make your light shine, so others will see the good you do and will praise your Father in heaven.

 

[Toknow]

Poor wording in my opinion - and I got a Spirit check when I first read it - but I suppose the @HeIsHere clarification means "personal performance" meant dead works in unbelief as @GWH seems to understand it.

The other member might have meant that.
But who can be sure?

I often read about a particular strawman on these threads.
The strawman states that I am speaking about pre.salvation....
thus making good deeds the object of our salvation.

AFTER I've said MANY TIMES that we are not saved by works/good deeds.
After I've said many times that I'm referring to AFTER salvation.

But, alas, this is but a sly way of saying that our good works/deed are NEVER necessary....
not before salvation and not after salvation.

Especially on threads like these, this whole works issue is much confused.

Incorrect Christian teachings would be the culprit.
This was never an issue till very recently.
We should stop and ask ourselves why.

Honestly, I don't like much of any wording used by most of us when discussing this. And less & less do I like this purely legal understanding of being deemed righteous by God.

It's legal because it's likened to a judge that DECLARES someone to be right with God because he believes.

A very good step 1.

Problem is....
there's a step 2
The sanctification step that is life-long.

Also, this flies in the face of those that want salvational to be RELATIONAL....which indeed it is.
So, a bit of confusion there too. For justification, it's legal - for sanctification, it's relational.


What wording would YOU like to see?

It's seemingly legal language translated from a legal culture (Greek), but these concepts are relational and found in a living, mutually abiding relationship with God by grace through faith - which is faith-obedience > faithfulness/love, etc.

Yes sir.
Agreed.

We've used a bunch of time in other areas of Scriptures on this loss topic and then trended into law for various reasons and side-adventures. In the law side of things having to do with this thread re: loss, there are more things to discuss in regard to loss, or better stated, withdrawal.

I'd agree that withdrawal is a better word.
Forfeiture.
Apostacy. Maybe others.

@HeIsHere and most OSAS thinking sees things like justification to be one time forever.

Yes. but, of course, this is not what the NT teaches.
Some do like to forget about the sanctification part of salvation.

Sanctify: To place aside for service to God.

I think it's all relational being in Christ in Spirit and remaining in Christ in Spirit in faith-obedience-good works with God providing His capacities for us to both will and work for His good pleasure in accomplishing our salvation by cooperative work with Him in continuing obedience to Him which is faith (Phil2:12-13).

Well said !
Amen.

 

[studier]

The other member might have meant that.
But who can be sure?

I often read about a particular strawman on these threads.
The strawman states that I am speaking about pre.salvation....
thus making good deeds the object of our salvation.

AFTER I've said MANY TIMES that we are not saved by works/good deeds.
After I've said many times that I'm referring to AFTER salvation.

But, alas, this is but a sly way of saying that our good works/deed are NEVER necessary....
not before salvation and not after salvation.

Agreed, who can be sure...

Agree about the strawman. A lot of them around here from more than one side.

"After salvation" is one of the things I think we can do better with. I'm sure we all know what you're speaking of, but salvation is a process with a beginning through an end/completion. I used to push thought a bit when asked if I was saved; my response was that I'm working on it with God (Phil2:12-13). I'm sure you know how that went over many times - and still does. But Scripturally it's accurate. And some of this is the good works you and @GWH were mentioning.

"Works" are intrinsic to faith per James2:17.

Incorrect Christian teachings would be the culprit.
This was never an issue till very recently.
We should stop and ask ourselves why.

I'm usually asking all the time as I'm studying His Word.
We're very loose with our language - our terminology is very frequently not biblical.

It's legal because it's likened to a judge that DECLARES someone to be right with God because he believes.

A very good step 1.

Problem is....
there's a step 2
The sanctification step that is life-long.

Also, this flies in the face of those that want salvational to be RELATIONAL....which indeed it is.
So, a bit of confusion there too. For justification, it's legal - for sanctification, it's relational.


What wording would YOU like to see?

Yes, but it's God deeming us to be in line with His will and character in a way that speaks of covenant faithfulness that is much more practical and relational than legal.

Paul builds his concept of credited righteousness on Abraham. The issue is that in Hebrew thought this is not judicial, but experiential, relational, being straight, in line with what is right, in line with God - and God considered Abraham as such.

In essence, God viewed Abraham's faith more in line with faithfulness (as was discussed in that video that was recently posted), and God considered it and applied it as such.

All this legal and accounting terminology is really not based in OC theology or thinking. It at least needs to be tempered and considered based upon where it stems from.

Even the OC words for sin are interesting and in one sense speak of a deviation. Consider in who's 'likeness' we're created, who's character we're to portray. Deviating from and missing that mark is part of what sin is about.

If we look at the NC wording of walking, the words that we're seeing as "transgressing" and other such terms literally speak of tripping, falling aside, etc. It's following the Hebrew concept of walking living in a straight line (righteously, right), not deviating, etc., until the terminology becomes worse.

It's not as judicial as we see it in Greek.

 

[BillyBob]

March21 PM – C Spurgeon Morning and Evening


"Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"-Job 38:31

If inclined to boast of our abilities, the grandeur of nature may soon show us how puny we are. We cannot move the least of all the twinkling stars, or quench so much as one of the beams of the morning. We speak of power, but the heavens laugh us to scorn. When the Pleiades shine forth in spring with vernal joy we cannot restrain their influences, and when Orion reigns aloft, and the year is bound in winter's fetters, we cannot relax the icy bands. The seasons revolve according to the divine appointment, neither can the whole race of men effect a change therein. Lord, what is man?

In the spiritual, as in the natural world, man's power is limited on all hands. When the Holy Spirit sheds abroad His delights in the soul, none can disturb; all the cunning and malice of men are ineffectual to stay the genial quickening power of the Comforter. When He deigns to visit a church and revive it, the most inveterate enemies cannot resist the good work; they may ridicule it, but they can no more restrain it than they can push back the spring when the Pleiades rule the hour. God wills it, and so it must be. On the other hand, if the Lord in sovereignty, or in justice, bind up a man so that he is in soul bondage, who can give him liberty? He alone can remove the winter of spiritual death from an individual or a people. He looses the bands of Orion, and none but He. What a blessing it is that He can do it. O that He would perform the wonder to-night. Lord, end my winter, and let my spring begin. I cannot with all my longings raise my soul out of her death and dullness, but all things are possible with Thee. I need celestial influences, the clear shinings of Thy love, the beams of Thy grace, the light of Thy countenance, these are the Pleiades to me. I suffer much from sin and temptation, these are my wintry signs, my terrible Orion. Lord, work wonders in me, and for me.
Amen.

Isn't it amazing how many people wish to rob God of his sovereignty and ascribe it to themselves?

 

[FlyingDove]

Re: Faith-Obedience – Faith which is Obedience – Obedience which is Faith

The argument that Heb3 does not tell us this truth, was dropped without being proven.

Some research showing Heb3 does teach us Faith-Obedience:

NKJ Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

• The underlined phrase is important. It tells us what this unbelief is and does.
• It establishes how we’re going to understand the next several verses that will be book-ended as a summary of various terminology with the same word “unbelief”
• Some instruct that this language does not equate belief with obedience. Typically this follows a faith alone theology that must separate faith from obedience or there is no faith alone as they see it.

Research:

• When I translate this infinitive clause “in departing from the living God,” my simple version would be to translate it as the NKJ does. So, the evil, heart [of] unbelief (which can also be translated “evil, unbelieving heart”) is IN the departing. The departure is not a result of the heart condition – it’s not the heart causing the departure - the departure IS the heart condition.
• Resources:
  • 1. Votaw — The Use of the Infinitive in Biblical Greek(1896), pp. 54–55
    • Classifies the construction as giving content or substance.
      • The withdrawal from God is the content or substance of the unbelieving heart – the withdrawal is the unbelief
  • 2. A.T. Robertson — A Grammar of the Greek New Testament(1914), pp. 1067–1068
    • Explains the construction as showing what the idea consists of.
      • The withdrawal is what unbelief consists of.
  • 3. BDF — Blass–Debrunner–Funk: A Greek Grammar of the NT(1961), §404
    • Glosses the phrase as “in the form of an accomplished apostasy.”
      • The withdrawal is the form of the unbelief
  • 4. Moulton–Turner — A Grammar of NT Greek, Vol. 3: Syntax(1963), p. 146
    • Identifies the construction as epexegetical (explanatory).
      • The withdrawal explains unbelief
  • 5. Moulton — A Grammar of NT Greek, Vol. 1: Prolegomena(1906), pp. 178, 193
    • The evil heart [of] unbelief is normal Greek moral language describing inner posture – a heart withdrawing from God
• Basic literal translation and these scholarly resources tell us:
  • The withdraw from God is unbelief – unbelief is withdrawal from God
  • There is no separation of the 2 concepts
  • The evil unbelieving heart is IN the departure from the living God

As Hebrews3 continues, it equates this unbelief/departure to:

• revolt/rebellion Heb3:15
• provoking [God] to anger, being rebellious, being disobedient Heb3:16
• sinning (and corpses falling in the desert) Heb3:17
• disobeying [God] Heb3:18
• Then, Heb3:19 bookends "unbelief" beginning in Heb3:12 and speaks in summary language:
  • "And so, we see that they were not able to enter through/on account of/because of unbelief."
  • Unbelief summarizes all of the above.
  • Unbelief is the summary word that includes:
    • Disobedience
    • Sin
    • Provoking God
    • Revolt/rebellion
    • An evil heart [of] unbelief which departs from the living God
• So:
  • Unbelief/departure/revolt/rebellion/provocation/sin/disobedience
    • They are all speaking of the same thing – different words but all are unbelief – parts of unbelief
    • They are parallel, mutually interpreting descriptions, mutually defining terms for unbelief

Faith-Obedience

• Different words with the same functional reality of having relationship with God
• They are not separate in the Word
• There is ultimately no such thing as Faith in God without Obedience to God
• The Word will proceed to build upon this foundation with words like faithfulness and love.

Typical, throw out a cluster of Greek terms & then smuggle in a ""grace through obedience"" conclusion that none of the grammars actually support. In Post #10,602 you described your method as shrinking the battlefield, isolating the hidden flaw, tracing upstream corruption & identifying the one point where GARBAGE enters the system so everything downstream becomes GARBAGE OUT. That's a very specific rhetorical posture: you cast yourself as the diagnostician, the root‑cause analyst, the one who sees what others miss & the one who decides what counts as valid data & what counts as GARBAGE.

The problem is that this posture is now being used to override the very grammars you cite. You didn't follow Votaw, Robertson, BDF, or Moulton‑Turner, YOU ""overrode them"". All 4 classify the infinitive in Heb 3:12 as epexegetical, meaning it explains unbelief. None of them say unbelief is disobedience or that faith is obedience. Grammars describe syntax, not doctrine. The theological identity you're asserting isn't in any of your sources, it's GARBAGE you imported & then retro‑justified with linguistic footnotes.

Hebrews 3 text itself keeps the categories distinct: the root is unbelief (3:12 & 3:19) & the rebellion, provocation, sin & disobedience in Vs. 15–18 are its expressions. The inspired author gives the theological category, the grammars simply describe the syntax. Using grammars to override the author's own summary is not exegesis, it's category collapse GARBAGE.

 

[JayWalker]

Exo. 31:14, 35:2, Num. 15:32

We are not under the old covenant.
Jesus and His Apostles never taught anybody to observe Saturday sabbath.

Reckon it slipped their mind and they just forgot?
I see you STILL can't find the bible verse that says New Covenant believers go to hell for going to church on the wrong day

Where's the beef?

 

[Toknow]

Typical, throw out a cluster of Greek terms & then smuggle in a ""grace through obedience"" conclusion that none of the grammars actually support. In Post #10,602 you described your method as shrinking the battlefield, isolating the hidden flaw, tracing upstream corruption & identifying the one point where GARBAGE enters the system so everything downstream becomes GARBAGE OUT. That's a very specific rhetorical posture: you cast yourself as the diagnostician, the root‑cause analyst, the one who sees what others miss & the one who decides what counts as valid data & what counts as GARBAGE.

The problem is that this posture is now being used to override the very grammars you cite. You didn't follow Votaw, Robertson, BDF, or Moulton‑Turner, YOU ""overrode them"". All 4 classify the infinitive in Heb 3:12 as epexegetical, meaning it explains unbelief. None of them say unbelief is disobedience or that faith is obedience. Grammars describe syntax, not doctrine. The theological identity you're asserting isn't in any of your sources, it's GARBAGE you imported & then retro‑justified with linguistic footnotes.

Hebrews 3 text itself keeps the categories distinct: the root is unbelief (3:12 & 3:19) & the rebellion, provocation, sin & disobedience in Vs. 15–18 are its expressions. The inspired author gives the theological category, the grammars simply describe the syntax. Using grammars to override the author's own summary is not exegesis, it's category collapse GARBAGE.

Good morning FD
I'm reading through this very intellectual discussion with much interest since it's about one of my favorite topics re the NT teachings.

Could you please answer the following?:

Hebrews 3:12-19

You are separating UNBELIEF and DISOBEDIENCE.

So are you saying that a person could disbelieve but still be obedient

or

a person could be disobedient but still believe??

Thanks.

(IOW I have difficulty separating the two and do not see the clear differentiation in scriputre that you do)