Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.
- Thread starter ATG
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
James 2:24 certainly does have a purpose. In context, we read in James 2:14 of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
James' concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. The absence of evidence can be construed as evidence of absence.
That is the stupidest response you could have the whole basis of my argument is on the scripture the fact that you can't delineate this and you're arguing against 2000 years of church history works is not a part of Salvation it's the outpouring of it
More to the point Protestant Christianity does not include works as part of the Salvation process I'm not I'm not arguing it you're arguing with the church over a heresy decided in the first century
Read John 3:16 there's your homework
He needed rebuking after lying to my face then trying to gaslight me.
For starters.
No mention made in any sense or form of man's works being a prerequisite to salvation (Rom 3:24, 5:21, Tit 3:5). Salvation was brought to fruition and given solely by God's mercy through Jesus Christ. Justification, and therefore salvation, is by His righteousness, His grace, His works and His faith as Savior which He grants and imputes to those whom He had chosen unto salvation. And that is why Christ alone is THE Savior and man is not.
[Rom 4:2 KJV] 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[Rom 5:21 KJV] 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
[Tit 3:4-6 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
James is not speaking of a "bare profession of faith".
The examples of faith used by James is that of Abraham and Rahab. They were both told to do something and neither of them attempted to dispute the need to obey. The key word here is "need". They needed to obey, their "faith" was not at issue but their willingness to obey was.
Regard of who sincere their faith was, it was the work that was the catalyst that produced the desired outcome. Not their faith.
It was the actual shedding of the blood of Jesus that gave mankind the hope of redemption not the faith that Jesus had that it would work.
The power is in the work.
In the first place I'm not the one who said JAMES SAID we are SAVED by works (when James actually said JUSTIFIED by works and not saved) then contradicted myself by saying I don't teach we are saved by works. I'm not the liar here.
You honestly cannot see this?
You have it in reverse.
Grace is the fundamental keyword in the N.T whereby we understand that the Lord.
In the Lord's infinite mercy has bestowed on us that free gift of salvation.
The Lord did not say repent of all your sin first, then I will consider whether you will be offered
salvation. Nor did the Lord say that we, must do this or do that, to be considered for salvation.
Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
2 Timothy 1:9
Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own
purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more,
having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
You must understand that repentance, endurance, good works, legalism, is not the reasons that
we are saved.
Following the words of Jesus to the letter is also not the reason anyone is saved.
Paul wrote 12 letters in the N.T and not one or two letters. Paul wrote the doctrines of Christianity
in great detail. According to the revelation he received directly from the Lord.
The gospels do not even agree with one another in places.
The letter James wrote was one letter and that letter had one line that everyone jumps on.
Peter tells you that Paul is the author in the N.T.
2 Peter 3:15
And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the
wisdom given him, wrote to you.
James is discussing a dead faith, a faith without works, a faith without compassion.
Not salvation by faith plus works.
James is definitely not saying justified by your works before the Lord Almighty
No one will be boasting before the Lord Almighty about their works, no one.
Yes he is. Take note: says/claims to have faith but has no works. Can that faith save him? What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) This is crystal clear.
Their willingness to obey was the demonstration of their faith but not the origin of it. Was Abraham "justified" accounted as righteous by faith in Genesis 15:6 or not until later in Genesis 22, after he offered up Isaac on the altar? *Also see Romans 4:2-3.
False. Your argument culminates in salvation by faith and works.
The shed blood of Jesus Christ (His death, burial and resurrection) is the actual means of our salvation and faith (not works) is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 3:24-26)
I know right. I almost fell out of my chair in disbelief when I read his response!
Do you think Jesus is encouraging people to put his sayings into practice in Matthew 7:24 because doing so would be doing the will of the Father? If so, do you think putting his sayings into practice would include things other than believing in Jesus?
Not trying to jump down your throat or anything, I just suggest you look at those four verses I posted carefully as if read carefully it should be obvious that Jesus wants us to do things like enter in through the strait (narrow) gate, do unto others as they do unto you, not judge (lest ye be not judged), as these are the sayings he has been preaching (he says verbatim: therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock). The implication is that these sayings are the will of the Father and that we are to follow through on Jesus' words if we want to enter into the kingdom of heaven. These would be works, but if I have you right you say works don't contribute to salvation. I don't understand how Jesus can say what he says in Matthew 7 if works don't contribute to salvation, he's instructing us to do certain things. I believe we have to believe in Jesus to be saved, but Jesus says certain things are true, and if we believe in him we must naturally believe what he says is true, therefore following through on what he commands is an extension of believing in him (which I admit can be hard to grasp).
John 8:51 King James Version
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
This is a part of John's gospel where it is laid out that if you believe in Jesus you have eternal life. I don't know if I'm going to be able to put this into words, but I think if you take everything Jesus has said together in the Gospel According to John and include something like this, it is arguable to see that Jesus expects us to follow his commands if we believe in him. The one who believeth in Jesus is in a manner of speaking someone who follows his commands because he believes that Jesus told the truth. I think we are at a great loss if it is taken to mean someone who simply believes the gospel, or simply believes Jesus existed. If that is how Jesus's words are meant to be viewed in John 3 then it is leaving out believing that Jesus is Lord and has the right and station to be commanding us. Also, as an aside, how do you reconcile Jesus saying what he said in Matthew 7:21-24?
So, you acknowledge you argued against Scripture. It's a good start.
Not unrighteous works of the flesh. Only good works toward God and man.
1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.
And there are Scriptures of salvation and justification without grace. So grace is not part of salvation.
The word of God is one word. Faith in His word is altogether, not isolated and torn apart.
2Pe 3:15
Which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
God does not have a salvation 'process', but is complete and instant with sanctification and justification by repentance from dead works.
1Co 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Only half-hearted repenters have a sanctification 'process' by their own faith-alone.
Of course. It's the many that are called unto repentance, but only the few that repent.
The crown of life is one for all that do righteousness, and is not recieved by anyone doing evil.
The cities of reward are for ministerial works, not for the same commanded righteousness to all.
Luk 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
There is no conundrum in Scripture between faith and faith with works, but only with people seeking to be justified by their faith-alone, and not with works of faith.
People who separate their works from their justification by faith, is really just a matter of justification by faith-alone apart from works hypocrisy.
It's purposed to see who takes every word of God as true, or just the ones people want to hear.
Most of the OT is about works, so was faith unnecessary to be justified with Christ? No.
Most of the NT is about faith, so is work unnecessary to be justified with Christ? No.
No one needs to dig deep into the Bible to see both faith and works are necessary to be justified with Christ in the old and the new testaments.
The deep digging needs to be in one's own heart, whether to believe and do God's word, or only what like to hear:
James{1:22}
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Isa 30:9
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
It's not the Bible that needs to be 'dug' into more, in order to know justification is not by faith-alone, and no man doing unrighteousness shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Right. Scripture of faith with works only 'seems' to be faith with works.
'Simply' faith meaning faith-alone without works.
Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Water baptism is no more a part of salvation than is outward circumcision.
The baptism and circumcision of the Spirit instantly saves and sanctifies them that repent of dead works for Jesus' sake.
When you know you're saved, sanctified, and justified with Jesus Christ by repentance from dead works, and only doing His good by His race and faith, let me know.
Otherwise, your partiality with Scripture is going hand in hand with your equivocation of loving God and others.
If you think that works is anything other than faith toward God and love of neighbor, then you have departed from the Scriptures of Jesus Christ.
Men's perspectives, like opinions and faith-alone, are worthless to God's justification and neighbors in need.
Agreed.
What that has to do with God's justification by works, and not by faith alone, I don't know nor care.
It's all to obvious that partial believers in Scripture, are partial to some Scripture, and against other Scripture.
The seek the words they like, and reject the ones they hate.
Isa 30:9
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
They isolate and separate Scripture from Scripture, rather than believing all the words of God as Scripture of truth:
Prov 30
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Mat 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
It's called taking God's words out of context of all God's words. He that says salvation by grace through faith, also says repent ye unto salvation. He that says justified by faith, also says justified by works, and not by faith only.
They don't see nor believe God's word as one word, but only see the words they agree with.
James{1:22}
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Being hearers only of what they want to hear, they deceive themselves that words they don't want to hear, don't apply to them.
The whole error of faith-alone salvation and justification is just personal partiality in the words of God.
Don't confuse a faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, with a faith in another Christ, that does not begin with repent ye..
We must first repent of works, before we can receive the faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation from sinning.
Ezek 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Isa 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Repenting of the thoughts and not the works first, only agreeing with God, not doing His will.
Mat 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Faith-alone without works is vain thoughts without deeds.
Jas 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Abraham offered up his son, and was justified by the work of faith.
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
The Scripture of imputing Abraham righteousness by faith, was not fulfilled until the work of offering up his son.
Only then was Abraham called the Friend of God.
Not beginning with repentance, faith-alone always follows with continued dead works.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
No one has the Spirit without repentance from dead works first.
Justification is definitely not by faith-alone apart from works, because that contradicts Scripture and Christ's work for them that repent.
Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Jesus Christ's gospel always begins with repentance from dead works. Faith-alone gospel always continues with dead works.
Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Faith-alone gospel never believes in doing righteousness at all times, because faith-alone justification is never with repenting from all unrighteousness.
Whoops, do unto others as you would have them do unto you*. I don't know how many times I've written that, whoops whoops whoops lol.