But you aren't using scripture to make your points. You begin with an idea that you think is true, then you find individual verses that seem to confirm your premise.
The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?
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Which part is not Scripture? Please use Scripture to prove what I stated is wrong, not just by your words.
The Ten Commandments came from God directly, written by God spoken by God inside the ark of His covenant - this is God's Testimony Exo31:18 God's works Exo32:16 are you saying we should elevate man over God? Moses certainly never did.
The Ten Commandments included the 4th commandment- God placed it in the same unit as only worship Him, not to bow to idols and not vain His holy name, the 4th commandment is the commandment where God choose to place which God we are to apply the first three commandments to Exo20:11 the only God we are called to worship Rev14:7 they all work in harmony together why breaking one of these commandments we break them all. James 2:11
The law of God can't save us but breaking them without repenting doesn't either. Heb10:26-30 We keep them because we allow God to write His laws in our minds and hearts and be in a covenant of faith with Him Heb8:10 sadly not everyone does because they do not like the terms, the law of God Rom8:7-8
We ARE going in a loop. Show my how that passage does not mean what I'm asserting. Don't just think I'm going to discard it's meaning because you say so.
Go to the text, show me that it doesn't mean what I'm asserting, or agree that this is the meaning.
Don't ascribe that nonsense to me.
Much love!
Where do you get this stuff? Who are you addressing?
There is no fruitfulness here.
Much love!
I have and posted it in detail that you have not responded to. https://christianchat.com/threads/t...the-covenant-did-you-know.221336/post-5724311
This post has yet to be addressed which addresses Romans 5
Didn't you say the gospel message didn't include keeping the commandments?
#6615
Sin is breaking the law of God 1John3:4 so if there is no law, no sin to repent from, no need for grace, no need for a Savior to save us from sin= no good news of salvation. You can't separate the gospel from the law of God because man is not saved in their sin Heb10:26-30 God saves us from our sins Mat1:21 a complete conversion in Christ Rom6:1-4
Its why Jesus began His gospel message with:
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Apparantly you are thinking that one Scripture cancels another. I don't. You have to harmonize so both remain true.
That's why I point to clearly stated Scripture, with a simple and plain meaning, and ask that you show how it doesn't mean the very things it says.
Instead of doing that, you go to other passages as if they will contradict this one. Not interested.
Bottom line here anyway is from other plainly stated passages. The Law was a covenant between God and Israel. The circumstances in which the Law could be kept ended in 70 AD. It is impossible to keep the Law now. Only your personally curated version of it, but that's not God's Law, that's your own.
Those who were under the Law have become DEAD to the Law, being baptized into Christ. Those who live under the law are condemned by the Law - because no one keeps.
If you know the Scriptures, you know the passages I'm referring to in making these statements. If you don't I suggest you learn them.
Much love!
You haven't harmonized the Scripture, you have stuck with one verse and the verses I provided in detail explains it, not cancels it. I have asked for your to address it, but I see that's not going to happen.
The earthy temple ended, but God has a heavenly Temple that has not. Heb8:1-5 Heb9:23-24 Rev 15:5KJV Rev 11:19 we have also became God's temple and dwelling place of the Holy Spirit why we have to keep our mind and bodies free of sin because the Holy Spirit dwells with those who obeys Him Acts 5:32
Being baptized in Christ doesn't mean breaking the law of God and sinning, its quite the opposite Rom 6:1-4
You are best off letting me say what I think and believe. But I haven't seen you being upright in this thread, so I'm not expecting that in the future.
There is no fruitfulness in this sort of discussion.
"Either you are under the Mosaic Law, or you are lawless". That's the complaint they made against Paul. So nothing really changes, does it?
Much love!
I did which is why I quoted you- you said either we have the gospel or the law, but I showed you they work in tandem not against.
Why don't you quote Scripture because Paul spoke of many different laws not just one.
Yes, and you went the same place they did with Paul, assuming that if I don't "keep the Law" that I am lawless,
SabbathBlessing said:
So the gospel allows us to worship other gods, vain His holy name and steal from our neighbors and disobeys God
Much love!
Romans 4:1-5 KJV
1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:13-16 KJV
13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Galatians 3:1-12 KJV
1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Always obsessed with sabbaths. But, in light of ALL of the law, sabbaths are only a small portion.
The quote, "they shall not enter My rest" is actually from the Psalms:
For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
Nothing about sabbaths there: only references to stray hearts and not knowing God's ways.
And even when we examine the passage you quoted... you highlighted the sabbaths but ignored all the rest. To leverage your own standard against you: "Who gave you permission to highlight the sabbaths as if they were the gist of the whole passage?"
Enough of your games. Here is the passage in total without the sabbaths emphasized. Notice how, when you underline the transgressions of the Israelites and omit the sabbaths, how much is underlined!
But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’[fn] 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’;[fn] and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’[fn] the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless My eye spared them from destruction. I did not make an end of them in the wilderness.
18 “But I said to their children in the wilderness, ‘Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols. 19 I am the LORD your God: Walk in My statutes, keep My judgments, and do them; 20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.’
21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew My hand and acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also I raised My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the Gentiles and disperse them throughout the countries, 24 because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.
25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the LORD.” ’
27 “Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel, and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “In this too your fathers have blasphemed Me, by being unfaithful to Me. 28 When I brought them into the land concerning which I had raised My hand in an oath to give them, and they saw all the high hills and all the thick trees, there they offered their sacrifices and provoked Me with their offerings. There they also sent up their sweet aroma and poured out their drink offerings. 29 Then I said to them, ‘What is this high place to which you go?’ So its name is called Bamah[fn] to this day.” ’ 30 Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Are you defiling yourselves in the manner of your fathers, and committing harlotry according to their abominations? 31 For when you offer your gifts and make your sons pass through the fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols, even to this day. So shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “I will not be inquired of by you. 32 What you have in your mind shall never be, when you say, ‘We will be like the Gentiles, like the families in other countries, serving wood and stone.
Only one not obsessed with Judaism can see that the reason "sabbaths" is repeated so often. The writer of Hebrews tells us: the people did not enter God's rest as a way of life... as long as it is called "today".
No. That is not what I am saying. I maintain that the Ten Commandments were part of a covenant that God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai, meaning that he never intended for them to be universal and applicable to all of humanity.
All of this was true of Israel. We are not Israel, and we are not under the Law, and we are not under the Mount Sinai Covenant. So when you use the first person "we" I wonder why.
It's worse than you think. After all, how hard is it to Rest on Saturday? But Paul, the Hebrew of Hebrews and the Pharisee of Pharisees, the person who rested on Saturday and walked with God in all uprightness and righteousness, found evil at the core of his being. He was convicted by the Tenth Commandment.
What is the Tenth Commandment? Everyone knows that God has proscribed coveting, but how many stop to consider, as Paul did, what that means in reality?
God said, "Thou Shalt not Murder," but the Tenth Commandment means "Don't be the kind of person who would want to murder." God said, "Thou Shalt not Steal," but the Tenth Commandment means "Don't be the kind of person who would want to steal." God said, "Thou Shalt not commit Adultery," but the Tenth Commandment means "Don't be the kind of person who would want to sleep with another man's wife."
The Tenth Commandment not only compels us not to DO something; it also compels us not to BE someone. Paul finally realized that God was asking him to DO the impossible. Framed this way, Paul finally understood why he needed a savior. He is constitutionally incapable of changing his fundamental nature in order to BE the kind of person commanded in the Tenth Commandment.
How does keeping the Fourth Commandment bear on this issue?
The "occupational hazard" of proof-texting is that our ideas are not anchored in what the author meant by his words. I have been trying to point out that many of the passages you cite are specifically applicable to a particular people group, not universally applicable to all humankind. The prophets of Old were not speaking into our context, and they rarely, if ever, preached to the world at large. Since they weren't talking directly to us, we need to exercise caution when drawing conclusions from what they say.
I admire your dedication to obedience and righteousness and your desire to please God, but I think you have mistakenly appropriated messages to Israel as if the prophets were speaking to us today.
Yes, I understand Heb 4:7, Heb 3:7-11 is directly quoting David in Psa 95, that is not the argument I have ever made.
What I was quoting directly from God, the reason He gave on why the Israelites rebelled and could not enter their rest. Which was not for keeping the Sabbath, but not keeping it- God said it plainly Eze20:13 Eze 20:15-16 and He goes on to explain its a bigger issue than just profaning the Sabbath- it shows one places what God said with another voice and He related it to idol worship.
It was a very big issue and it caused a whole generation to lose their inheritance why in the NT we are called not to follow in the same example of disobedience lest we fall too Heb4:11
We are free to accept the warning from God because He loves us and wants us to make better decisions or we can continue hardening our heart as well and I guess hope for a different result despite the clear warning.
The issue is not that the Scriptures are not clear, the issue is believing them.
2 Tim 3:16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
no wonder why Jesus quoting from the OT told mankind how they should live.....
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”