Is cessation an observation or theology?

[Lamar]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

 

[Dino246]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

You probably find "even less" in Scripture about manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today because the Bible was completed about 2,000 years ago.

While it is the responsibility of the claimant to support their claim, "proof" is a ridiculous standard because it depends on the recipient of evidence. Those who have already convinced themselves (usually by bad arguments) that manifestations of the Spirit don't occur today are unlikely to be convinced by any evidence.

I know what I have seen and experienced. I know it is consistent with things described in Scripture. I don't care who else believes me.

 

[presidente]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

Your basing theology on a lack of experience.

I have seen plenty of evidence for spiritual gifts. Some of the prophecies also are about things the speaker would not naturally know. Miracles seem relative rare, except maybe casting out demons. But they might not have been that common in Biblical times for the most part, either. Supernatural healing happens also. I had a classmate healed from severely crossed eyes.

Do you believe God heals through elders anointing with oil? What about in answer to prayer? Do you believe that God answers prayer? What would you say to an atheist who witnessed some prayers that weren't answered as those doing the praying wished, who argued that this was proof of his atheism? Then he called Christians delusional. His criticism would be of the same sort as yours. How would you answer that type of criticism.

 

[Aussie52]

I was in the Pentecostal Movement for 20 years. Seven as an ordained minister. I left the Movement out of disgust over the 'falseness' of so called 'supernatural phenomena. I saw people and healing evangelists claim healings, when a few weeks later, the claims were very false. I saw people coached into speaking in tongues, which were nothing but gibberish.
I saw and experienced 'spiritual abuse' on a large scale. I had to help people pick up their lives after dealing with so called leaders.

There was much noise and activity but little holiness or Christlikeness.

 

[Aussie52]

In answering the question,' Is cessation an observation or a theology'?
I would think it is both. If one looks objectively at the activities of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements, there is little New Testament equivalence.
Theologically, the evidence from the New Testament points to the fact that the 'sign gifts' and Offices of Apostle and Prophet, were foundational.
As to healing, the Cessationalist position is that God still heals today in answer to prayer. But the 'gift of healing', is past.

 

[Aussie52]

My apologies, I think it should be 'Cessationist'.

 

[presidente]

In answering the question,' Is cessation an observation or a theology'?
I would think it is both. If one looks objectively at the activities of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements, there is little New Testament equivalence.
Theologically, the evidence from the New Testament points to the fact that the 'sign gifts' and Offices of Apostle and Prophet, were foundational.
As to healing, the Cessationalist position is that God still heals today in answer to prayer. But the 'gift of healing', is past.

Where does scripture say that the gift of healing is past?

Prophesying is mentioned in Revelation, also.

Where does scripture designate certain gifts as 'sign gifts'?

 

[Aussie52]

Where does scripture say that the gift of healing is past?

Prophesying is mentioned in Revelation, also.

Where does scripture designate certain gifts as 'sign gifts'?

I believe nothing that I would say would convince you, so I shall not try. Peace.

 

[wattie]

I see it as both observation and theology.

Someone claiming a miracle or supernatural occurrences needs to eliminate the other factors before claiming it.

For eg.. the christian psychologist or counselor discounts all other factors before coming to the conclusion of demon possession.

That's not doubting God..that's being discerning about what is Godly and what is not.

 

[TrustandObey]

You probably find "even less" in Scripture about manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today because the Bible was completed about 2,000 years ago.

I believe the key word in the sentence you are quoting is "continuing". There is little in scripture to support the existence of the miraculous continuing without the prima facie that was shown in the New Testament.

IOW, Jesus, Peter and Paul presented physical supernatural phenomena, Pentecostals present claims.

If Pentecostals want the world to believe their claims (which they most certainly do), then they must reasonably explain the lack of prima facie to their claims.

I am not picking on Pentecostals, I expect this from the claims of the Flat Earthers as well.

BTW, I do not expect prima facie about space aliens, Big Foot or Loch Ness claims since the claimants insist that they are purposely hiding.

 

[TrustandObey]

Where does scripture say that the gift of healing is past?

Prophesying is mentioned in Revelation, also.

Where does scripture designate certain gifts as 'sign gifts'?

Regardless of what is mentioned in the Bible, if the claims are false then the claimant is false.

Would you not agree?

 

[Burn1986]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

So you’re saying the baptism of the Holy Spirit is false? Or are you just saying there’s no manifestations outside of the specific NT churches? Obviously you haven’t seen any. What does cessation mean? That’s like a state splitting off from the US?

 

[Gideon300]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

I have personally experienced many manifestations of the Holy Spirit in my 55 years in the Lord. I have witnessed many others. The problem is not theological. God's word clearly states that the gifts were given for a purpose. That purpose has yet to be realised.

The real issue is the doubt and unbelief of some who refuse to accept the testimony of people like myself. I'm no hard line Pentecostal. I found Pentecostalism hard to take. Some Pentecostal pastors I met had hearts of stone. And some were true men of God. I was a member of a Pentecostal church for 5 years. It was a very mixed bag, much like the church at Corinth.

The Wesley brothers could easily be described as Pentecostal. John Wesley said that the reason gifts were not being manifested was doubt and unbelief. So much the same as now.

There is a good deal that is false in the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements. Too many do not know the difference between the supernatural and the Spiritual. God's word is clear, if people will study for themselves. Regrettably, too few are willing to put in the effort. But the fact that there is the counterfeit proves that there is the real. You cannot counterfeit what does not exist already.

Feel free to call me a liar. Just remember that God is recording your every word. You will have to account for them. It will not affect your salvation. It may affect your standing in God's kingdom. So before you call me a liar, along with countless others who have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit, consider the consequences.

I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. I know what I know, I know who I know, and I've been around long enough to prove the truth for myself.

 

[TrustandObey]

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

Well said.

Jesus did.

Luke 6:6-11

Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

Nothing.

 

[TrustandObey]

So you’re saying the baptism of the Holy Spirit is false?

By no means. I received the Holy Spirit when I was immersed for the remission of my sins.

Or are you just saying there’s no manifestations outside of the specific NT churches?

I am simply saying that there is no reason to believe the claims of Pentecostals of physical, supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are just stories without substance.

Obviously you haven’t seen any.

Correct but my desire is to witness it.
But I am blessed to believe without seeing.

What does cessation mean? That’s like a state splitting off from the US?

This is just silly.

This may help.

cessation
noun
/seˈseɪ·ʃən/
the ending of a condition or the stopping of an activity:

 

[Burn1986]

By no means. I received the Holy Spirit when I was immersed for the remission of my sins.

I am simply saying that there is no reason to believe the claims of Pentecostals of physical, supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are just stories without substance.


Correct but my desire is to witness it.
But I am blessed to believe without seeing.


This is just silly.

This may help.

cessation
noun
/seˈseɪ·ʃən/
the ending of a condition or the stopping of an activity:

Well, I mean there’s some of this stuff happening whether the Pentecostals are doing it or not. You know Pentecostals are not the one-all be-all.

It also says for the sick to be brought to the front of the church and the leaders of the church would pray over them for healing. I haven’t seen this either, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

Most of us have seen people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.

 

[Gideon300]

In answering the question,' Is cessation an observation or a theology'?
I would think it is both. If one looks objectively at the activities of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements, there is little New Testament equivalence.
Theologically, the evidence from the New Testament points to the fact that the 'sign gifts' and Offices of Apostle and Prophet, were foundational.
As to healing, the Cessationalist position is that God still heals today in answer to prayer. But the 'gift of healing', is past.

You are wrong. I was a member of a Pentecostal fellowship for 5 years. There was a woman who had regular meetings where she prayed for people to be healed. She used to preach first - signs following etc. That made me wince. She was no preacher. But she sure had the gift of healing and word of knowledge. I only went to a meeting if I had a need. One time, I was in real trouble over an issue. I did not tell her, she told me what it was. I had shared it with no one else. She prayed and the problem lifted immediately.

One time I was with a group of friends on a Sunday morning, in Lismore. Two of them came by motor bike from Brisbane. They were brothers. One of the brothers was lying on the motel room bed, in agony. He had a terrible toothache. In those days, there was no emergency dentist available. I said to myself, God does not heal teeth. God said, "Yes I do." Immediately I had an anointing and faith to pray for the man. He was healed instantly. That was a gift of healing. It sure was not my faith. That was in 1978 and I've had nothing like it since.

I'd been saved a few weeks when I came across people from Teen Challenge in Sydney. It was started by "Tiny" Dewberry, AOG pastor. I knew nothing about the Holy Spirit. People called Him the Holy Ghost in those days. That spooked me from the start. The only ghosts I knew of were distinctly unholy.

I suffered the effects of years of alcohol abuse. My liver was shot. I felt sick all the time. Towards the end of a meeting of the residents, Tiny had a word of knowledge about someone who was suffering the same symptoms as me. I checked to see if anyone else put up their hand. Nope. He was talking to me. He prayed and I was healed immediately. i was also healed of chronic nosebleeds that were the result of a broken nose 5 years earlier.

 

[Aussie52]

The problem with many Christians is that if anything 'supernatural/miraculous' occurs, they automatically assume it is from God.
I have experienced this first hand in the Pentecostal/Charismatic scene. The truth is that God is not the only one to do the miraculous. The demonic is often seen in our churches. I recall the so called 'Toronto Blessing' happening, all these people rolling around the floor laughing their heads off. Much of it was uncrucified flesh and not a little, demonic.
A lot of prophetic and word of knowledge is of occult in nature and manifestation. Believe me or not. I have witnessed it. As a Pastor I have had to deal with it, after the meetings, hurt and destroyed lives. It would be nice to say this is a minority happening, but it is not! It is happening all around us.

 

[Burn1986]

By no means. I received the Holy Spirit when I was immersed for the remission of my sins.

I am simply saying that there is no reason to believe the claims of Pentecostals of physical, supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are just stories without substance.


Correct but my desire is to witness it.
But I am blessed to believe without seeing.


This is just silly.

This may help.

cessation
noun
/seˈseɪ·ʃən/
the ending of a condition or the stopping of an activity:

Yep. I should’ve looked up cessation. I was thinking succession. Good points btw.

 

[Aussie52]

It is interesting to study some Church history. Impartial observers of the so called "Azuza Street Revival" the birth place of the Pentecostal Movement, saw many instances of people running around in circles, others rolling on the floor barking like dogs. Instances of demonic manifestation which its leaders considered the Holy Spirit.
I could go on. From the very beginning, The Pentecostal Movement was questionable. That is why so many godly, evangelical leaders stood against it at the time.
.