You missed the point completely.
You are using a 1921 newspaper to “prove” something didn’t happen in 2017.
Is cessation an observation or theology?
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You are using a 1921 newspaper to “prove” something didn’t happen in 2017.
This is about the claims of the Pentecostal Movement, not whether God is still doing miracles.
Of course God is still doing miracles!!!
My exposing the farce of the Pentecostal Movement does not deny the physical supernatural ability of God to act in our world.
What is wrong with you. Get a grip on your emotions.
God is not limited by the unbelief of humans to produce miracles. Just read Mark 3:1-6.
Jesus healed the crippled hand in front of hard hearted unbelievers.
Jesus was not bound to not perform miracles in Nazareth.
He certainly did perform miracles in Nazareth.
Just not as many.
Your reasoning here is a sign of your uncritical judgement toward scripture.
IOW, you are grasping for reasons why the Pentecostal Movement is not mimicking the New Testament.
Koch was against the Pentecostal movement but concluded that there were real miracles.
In the early 2000's, I had a conversation with a Bible college or seminary student who had written his thesis on the topic of the miracles on Timor. He was from Timor and he had interviewed older people who had experienced them. I asked him about getting a copy, but that was before Indonesians had email, and he apparently didn't have free floppy disks with his dissertation to pass out and I never got one.
He needs to "prove" something didn't happen?
It is the Pentecostals who are using the New Testament to "prove" certain events are physically happening today.
In science, or even social science 'research', let's be careful about using the word 'proven'. That's not how it works, and that type of language is unscientific given the parameters of the research. These linguists did not test all speaking in tongues or, to my knowledge, any samples which were identified by others who spoke the language.
Also, the scriptures speaks of 'tongues of men and of angels'. There are other 'extreme possibilities' as a part of the argument. Giving one's body to the burned is _possible_. So is giving all to the poor. (Has anyone seen that old 60's or 70's movie where St. Francis even gives away his clothes?) Why would 'tongues of angels' be impossible?
The underlying assumption is that linguists have identified variables of human speech clearly enough, the variables by which speech is inflected for meaning, to test their speaking in tongues samples against these variables.
Of course, if a tongue were 'tongues of angels' linguists would have to gain a knowledge of angelic language(s), including the variables by which meaning is inflected in the language(s) in a broad enough sense to identify the utterances against angelic speech. To my knowledge, linguists have not performed such research on angelic speech.
There were different researchers, but one researcher's argument was that some of the prayers were given in a monotone high pitch, not like human speech, but I knew a Canadian girl who prayed in English just like that, and most tongues I'd heard didn't follow that pattern.
Now if some speaking in tongues is genuine, and some is fake, the research does not prove there is no genuine speaking in tongues. The early Pentecostal movement grew partly because people would go to Azusa Street and other meetings and hear their own languages. The newsletter of the movement reports many such testimonies. Dr. Vinson Synan interviewed individuals who were children at Azusa Street, and one of them pointed out that the reason the meetings grew is that people would come and hear speaking in tongues in various languages. I remember she mentioned Japanese.
I can think of two other books that contain testimonies written by other individuals by there. Fire on Azusa by Val Dez tells of a woman hearing Russian 'in tongues.' There was another account in 'The Comforter has Come.' You can also look up The Apostolic Faith newsletter on the Flowers library site to read the various accounts of such things in there.
I've also had conversations with at least three people who either heard a language they knew in tongues or the 'tongue' they were speaking was identified by someone who understood the language. One is a German I correspond with who heard speaking in tongues (one in KJV English) by Europeans two who didn't know English.
Another was a daughter of a missionary. I 'd just read that the missionary had heard Chinese villagers speaking in English during his mission trips there. She visited my church and sang there; her husband preached. I mentioned what I'd read about her father, and she'd heard a little Chinese grandma speaking in tongues in a village in China.
Another was a missionary who'd previously served among the Navajo before going overseas. Back when he did native ministry, he got invited to preach to the Cherokee. He had a strong urge to speak in tongues while preaching, which he perceived to the the Holy Spirit and eventually yielded to it. Afterward, someone asked how he spoke their language. He'd rebuked some youths who had planned some mischief-- firecrackers under the stage or cutting the tent ropes or whatever it was.
Let me ask you what your argument is.
The approach to scripture of Pentecostals and Charismatics is:
1. Scripture shows that God empowered people to do miracles and operate in spiritual gifts.
2. The New Testament teaches that spiritual gifts are given to individuals in the church.
3. We living in a time in which the Spirit is being poured out, which is predicted to come with certain supernatural manifestations.
Now let me ask you if I properly understand your theological argument against God doing miracles today. Does this sum it up:
"Because the scripture shows that God empowered people to do miracles and gave spiritual gifts in the past, that proves that He does not do so today?"
Is that an accurate statement of your viewpoint? If not, could you clarify for me?
I think he was talking about Seymour praying five hours a day before the revival and how every long during it.
What I gather is that they had a pulpit made out of boxes, and he was there bowing down praying much of the time. Meeting could run for 24 hours.
This is evidence of the ongoing claims of the Pentecostal Movement about physical supernatural manifestations???
You talked to a person twenty years ago who wrote about a person who over 40 years earlier interviewed some older people about some experience from their past.
I strongly suggest you do not look into the experiences of space alien abductees.
When I was in middle school, I went to a Pentecostal church and a school affiliated with it. We'd get there a little early before the school doors were unlocked and students would wait by their parents cars or gather and talk.
There was a girl a year older that man. He'd had severely crossed eyes. She wore thick glasses that magnified the size of her eyeballs. She obviously had visual problems. Now, the night before, a visiting evangelist had had people come down for prayer and the laying on of hands. He walked a woman out of a wheelchair. I didn't know the woman or if she could walk out of a wheelchair normally. People can have varying degrees of leg, hip, etc. problems. There was a huge crowd of people. I didn't know who all was there.
But the next day, I went to school, and I was told the girl with vision problems had been healed, so I asked where she was, and was pointed toward her parents car. So I went and interviewed her. She told me about how the evangelist laid hands on her, and how she was healed. I could see it with my own eyes that her eyes weren't crossed. She didn't need her glasses anymore, either.
That's one thing I've witnessed in regard to healing. Of course there are probably too many cases of obviously supernatural prophecy, words of knowledge, etc. Such things do not have to be 'obviously supernatural' by means of telling the secrets of people's hearts or predicting the future to be genuine and from God.
In the Bible, there are not many passages that specify what to do in church meetings. The one that goes into the most detail gives instructions about all prophesying, about prophets speaking two or three. Prophesying in church is presented as normal and desirable and the church is commanded to allow it.
Cessationism leads one to ignore various aspects of Christian practice taught in scripture, not just doctrine.
Do you have a biblical and exegetical reason for believing the parts of the New Testament scriptures about spiritual gifts no longer apply, or is your doctrine based on not seeing such things yourself or not liking what you see from those who claim such things occur?
There is nothing to clarify on my end.
My argument is simple.
Pentecostals are falsely claiming the ability to perform physical supernatural manifestations on par with those of the New Testament.
What part of this is confusing to you? It's only a single 19 word sentence.
BTW, Mormons claim this ability as well. I believe their claims are false as well.
God can and does perform miracles today.
Yes. My very first experience with a Pentecostal was disturbing. Thank God he was not like the rest of the people I met at Teen Challenge Hawaii. They could not have been nicer to me, a total stranger. In those days, they spoke of the "Holy Ghost". I knew about ghosts and I was spooked by "Holy Ghost" talk.
You can still get Kurt Koch's book on line. I had heard of a number of miracles in Indonesia before reading the book. Nothing he said contradicted what I'd heard.
If the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit were still active today as it was during the New Testament you would not need to present such silly anecdotal evidence as you are presenting.
There would simply be no debate.
Was the roof of your middle school pulled away to lower those in need of healing? Were the clothes of your healers being grabbed by those in need of healing?
You are only fooling those who want to be fooled.
I see no critical thinking on your part.
You are no different than the Mormons who claim these same abilities.
BTW, the Mormons believe the Pentecostal claims are fake also.
I do not know when the "perfect" came or what is was but it has certainly come.
Heard???
This is about the Pentecostals claiming their abilities are ongoing.
Why should we concern ourselves about something that happened on a tropical island in the 1960's.
What about now? What about here?
Are the claims of the Pentecostal physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit ongoing?
Why even need tongues today?
Take out your phone and use a translation ap into another language.
I received a healing through prayer. God will sovereignly heal today.
But, it was not like when God had the Church burst on the scene with
instant healings and miracles.
This does not happen anymore.
But, it was not like when God had the Church burst on the scene with
instant healings and miracles.
This does not happen anymore.
The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people.
And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.
No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded
by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed
in the Lord and were added to their number. As a result, people brought
the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least
Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by.
Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick
and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.
Acts 5:12-16
It was not gibberish like we see so often.
It was in an actual language.
And, with an interpreter.
Some people are naturally vulnerable to hypnotism.
Some are not.
I have seen that demonstrated as well.
People under hypnotism can be induced into many things.
.....
I understand that you are not defending cessationism. However, in your original post, you said this:
"I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament."
To focus the point to which I am responding, I'll edit your post:
"I find even less in scripture to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today"
That's because Scripture was completed about 2,000 years ago. It is unreasonable to think that texts written in the first century would contain narrative describing events (or the absence of events) occurring in the 21st century. It is as unreasonable to expect a newspaper from 1921 to contain news events from 2017. That is my point.
What would be reasonable is indication in Scripture that manifestations of the Holy Spirit either would continue to occur, or would not continue to occur. What we see in Scripture is no indication that such events would not continue until a specific event occurs: "when the perfect comes". The nature of that specific event was apparently clear to Paul but is veiled to us.
While people claiming supernatural events occur today bear the responsibility to support their claims with reasonable evidence (not "proof", by the way!), it is equally the burden of those claiming they don't occur to support their assertions with reasonable evidence. As it is essentially impossible to prove the non-existence of anything, the burden on the cessationist is much heavier.
Stories about fakery are usually cited as evidence of cessationist views. What cessationists fail to understand is that the existence of a fake does not logically invalidate the real... not even a little.