the meaning of baptism

[Burn1986]

To me, consenting to be baptized is like making a confession. We are confessing that we have (past tense) committed our lives to Christ. We got saved when we first made that confession, but then make public confession of the same. The baptism itself is a statement of what we've chosen to do, dying to our sinful life and yielding our members to righteousness through Christ.

It is both a confession and a dramatic presentation to the world of what we've chosen to do. The Church sacramentalized this confession by including it in services so that all Christians could be witness to the commitment.

Yep x2

 

[biblestudent78]

And there it is. You can't be taken seriously as long as you peddle that lie. Grace and peace.

Please help me understand that "lie."

 

[Beekeeper]

Well how about if we consider another example of an apostle baptizing a believer in water . this further example sort of doesn’t leave that debate as open

The only debate I have been referring to is the one about the mode of baptism.
Most that you have said regarding the meaning of it, I would agree with.
I look in the texts that you present not just for possible suggestions that it may be full immersion, but for absolute proof.
If full immersion deserves the firm place it now holds in church doctrine, it must be clearly taught in the Bible.
If not, there is more for us to learn about the meaning of baptism, ie from the Old Testament.
That does not make what we already know from the NT un-true.

they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”

I imagine that you envisage them going under the water.
The Jordan, being the lowest river in the world ( https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/114422-lowest-river), is however in most places a river that you would need to "go down" to.
In any case only one of them would need to go under to be immersed.
Not enough here to close the debate.

was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water,

Again I am guessing you see Jesus coming up from under the water?
But how can we be sure from this text that it was really like that?

There are also those who think that they have found the full immersion mode in Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death".
This is found in a passage about union with Christ, including with His death, but I do not believe it clarifies for us what the mode of water baptism is to be.
Jesus' physical burial was not under the ground, but could be better compared to being shut in a room.

There are those who think that "one baptism" in Ephesians 4:5 means that every use of a "baptiso" word form in the Bible is a reference to full immersion water baptism.
This is not the case in the Bible.
There is more for us to understand than the baptism of John (Acts 18:25).
Jesus calls His coming trials in Mathew 20:22 a baptism.
Romans 6:4 refers to baptism in the context of union with Christ in His death.
There is also baptism with the Holy Ghost (Mark 1:8), and "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" Mathew 3:11.
"Bapso" is used in reference to dipping bread, ie john 13:26, and "baptosmos" is used in reference to ceremonial washings in Hebrews 9:10.

We should not be more dogmatic than the Bible is about the use of the word.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The only debate I have been referring to is the one about the mode of baptism.
Most that you have said regarding the meaning of it, I would agree with.
I look in the texts that you present not just for possible suggestions that it may be full immersion, but for absolute proof.
If full immersion deserves the firm place it now holds in church doctrine, it must be clearly taught in the Bible.
If not, there is more for us to learn about the meaning of baptism, ie from the Old Testament.
That does not make what we already know from the NT un-true.



I imagine that you envisage them going under the water.
The Jordan, being the lowest river in the world ( https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/114422-lowest-river), is however in most places a river that you would need to "go down" to.
In any case only one of them would need to go under to be immersed.
Not enough here to close the debate.



Again I am guessing you see Jesus coming up from under the water?
But how can we be sure from this text that it was really like that?

There are also those who think that they have found the full immersion mode in Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death".
This is found in a passage about union with Christ, including with His death, but I do not believe it clarifies for us what the mode of water baptism is to be.
Jesus' physical burial was not under the ground, but could be better compared to being shut in a room.

There are those who think that "one baptism" in Ephesians 4:5 means that every use of a "baptiso" word form in the Bible is a reference to full immersion water baptism.
This is not the case in the Bible.
There is more for us to understand than the baptism of John (Acts 18:25).
Jesus calls His coming trials in Mathew 20:22 a baptism.
Romans 6:4 refers to baptism in the context of union with Christ in His death.
There is also baptism with the Holy Ghost (Mark 1:8), and "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" Mathew 3:11.
"Bapso" is used in reference to dipping bread, ie john 13:26, and "baptosmos" is used in reference to ceremonial washings in Hebrews 9:10.

We should not be more dogmatic than the Bible is about the use of the word.

Yes do you see this point ?

“And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬


remember what pul teaches baptism means regarding the death burial and resurrection ? “Buried with him in baptism “ also “ joined together in the likeness of his death “

i think the doctrine helps us a lot they definately we’re baptizing using water we seem to agree there . So if we listen to what Paul’s saying baptism is done in the likeness of the death and burial of Christ , and also him raising up from the dead having been buried

“ going down into the water and coming up out of the water “ seems to support being buried together with Jesus and raised up again . Notice when a person is baotized the baptizer lowers then under in Jesus name , and then raises them back up again ?

Im not a person who going to argue about the exact method but simply am saying the evidence that’s available all lends to bieng baotized in water lowers beneath it and raised up again in his name based on belief of the gospel

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-7‬ ‭

we need to be United with him in his death for our sins his burial and resurrection. Baptism is all about his death burial and resurrection which lends almost expcusively to submersion


only my opinion however and nothing official or anything

 

[NightTwister]

Please help me understand that "lie."

I'm certain that's not possible.

 

[randyk]

In general, have a problem hearing Martin Luder's words over and over again as if repeating them make them gospel. 21st century Protestant and non-denominational Christianity (which I am a part) continue to bifurcate humanity into a stand alone mind and a stand alone human body which we continue to claim we own and is of no concern of God's. Thus we parse the New Testament for anything that relieves us of any non-mental conversion. Thus, God has no interest and no claim on anything but our brains where we get save by claiming belief. In reality there is no such thing salvation by belief, in our dogmas, catechisms, creeds and popular culture compliance. We believe that somehow our minds contain our souls thus it is logical to say we are saved by what is in our mind. How convenient. A head nod to a 60 pulpit prayer and we have complied fully with the entire will of God....

The sad truth is that God created us mind and body. We an undivided whole. Thus we do not get to claim saving faith in our minds and live like we damn well please because any attempt to obey any physical thing is heretical as it reeks of "works based salvation."

The key to 21st century Protestant and ND Christianity is that we believe God's only interest is in what we think, what dogmas we support. The Gospel Truth is that Christ came to save the entire person. He came to save humanity not just human brains.

Just like all parents know, when you ask a child to do something you expect them to do more than say, "Yeah, I believe that." Christians have been asked to accept the Power of the Holy Spirit to change our lives, not just change some thoughts. We all crave salvation, but we stubbornly resist conversion. If we think right we don't have to live right. That is unspoken reality on the ground,

The apostle Paul makes it clear what you may think of as "saving grace" is just noise, IF you are not fully loving. As we all know, loving is defined by our actions over time. Not by the fact we say the words or have a momentary emotion. If we are not moving toward being the loving, walking, kneeling, praying, healing, repenting and source of reconciliation of our leader, Jesus the Christ, then all the 16th century theological excuses we have invented to deny God the ownership of our life is in vain. Read Matthew 25 again,
Here is Jesus's description of his disciple's conversion.

Though I would certainly agree with some of your "thoughts," I would not summarize the realities that I see using your words and generalizations. Yes, we need to think right, talk right, and better--do right. And that failure may even be the direction we are generally heading.

But to characterize it in such an extreme way is not what the Reformers and Luther really intended to say, and not what most people have understood them to say. They did not separate mind and body. And in their time those who emphasized the body over the mind were more like the "Humanists" than solid, doctrine-oriented Christians. They were, I think, more into the beauty of Tradition than in the more difficult distinctions that Scripture draws out.

Both mind and body are essential, and the mind/thoughts are not really ever distinct from the body. Those who say and do not do, like the Pharisees, are simply religious failures. They did not concoct a doctrine that divided mind and body. They simply placed external religious observances above internal realities that they denied could exist. Anyway, that's how I see it.

 

[GWH]

There is only one baptism, so the meaning of water is a physical symbol of the spiritual Spirit, and the meaning of baptism is the moment that the Holy Spirit of Jesus indwells the repentant believer (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5).

 

[biblestudent78]

Though I would certainly agree with some of your "thoughts," I would not summarize the realities that I see using your words and generalizations. Yes, we need to think right, talk right, and better--do right. And that failure may even be the direction we are generally heading.

But to characterize it in such an extreme way is not what the Reformers and Luther really intended to say, and not what most people have understood them to say. They did not separate mind and body. And in their time those who emphasized the body over the mind were more like the "Humanists" than solid, doctrine-oriented Christians. They were, I think, more into the beauty of Tradition than in the more difficult distinctions that Scripture draws out.

Both mind and body are essential, and the mind/thoughts are not really ever distinct from the body. Those who say and do not do, like the Pharisees, are simply religious failures. They did not concoct a doctrine that divided mind and body. They simply placed external religious observances above internal realities that they denied could exist. Anyway, that's how I see it.

Insightful. I would note that during the time of Luder (his actual last name), Calvin was delivering Christian misbehavers to be burned at the stake to both punish, warn others and "purify their soul." 19 people were hanged for "witchcraft" in the "Christian" American community of Salem with many more subject to sever other penalties.

While the mind/body controversy has raged over the centuries, what is unique today is "belief" vs "life." I use the analogy of the mind/body historical problem to illustrate that today, 99.95% of Protestant and Non-Denominational Christianity do not teach or practice anything coherent about the Christian life. Unlike Catholics, we do not practice confession of our sins within our Christian communities. They are deemed too private, embarrassing and irrelevant. We are only concerned with saving souls. The essential - if unspoken - theology on the ground - is that your salvation is an event that frees your lifestyle choices with the exception of homosexual relationships. About 70–74% of Catholics and 76% of mainline Protestants support LGBTQ+ acceptance. But, only 22% of Evangelicals accept homosexuls for membership and only 2% allow same sex marriage. The divorce rate for 1st marriages is 47% in the general public and the same 47% for practicing Christians.

Hundreds of high-profile Christian pastors and church leaders have been found guilty of, or faced credible allegations regarding, sexual crimes, financial fraud, and severe misconduct, with a 2019 report finding roughly 380 Southern Baptist leaders and volunteers were accused over two decades. Over 200 of those, including pastors and youth ministers, were convicted or pleaded guilty. Reports identified nearly 200 Assemblies of God leaders accused of sexual abuse, with many victims being children. Another report found 400 allegations against 168 leaders in Independent Baptist churches. Tip of the iceberg.

People with no religious affiliation (atheists, agnostics, and the "unaffiliated") consistently report higher lifetime suicide attempts and fewer perceived reasons for living in clinical studies. Data indicates that among major religious groups in the U.S., Protestants may have higher suicide rates than Catholics, while groups like Jews and Muslims often show lower rates than Christians. Suicide is extremely personal whoever, is lowest in populations that feel connected, supported and respected in and by communities important to them.

While all Christian Churches have written or agreed to standards of public misbehavior that warrants adjudication, Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use formal and frequently enforced coercive actions. Public shaming and firing has happened more and more frequently in Evangelical Christianity for their most prominent, public facing and criminal behavior. Some for extreme moral failure. Interestingly enough, none I know of have been fired for excessive greed even though many national Evangelical and Non-Denominational leaders have become multi millionaires from their "evangelism."

In summary, we live in a Christian majority nation (67%) where the emphasis is on only two objectives. 1. Being right so God will make you rich. 2. Believing right no matter how you live. The only thing unanimously agreed to is this - if you believe differently than our dogma, you are wrong in the eyes of God.

The social pathologies of the broader Christian community are not much different than those of the pagans. If Jesus did not come to save us from ourselves (preferred euphemism-sins) and provide a path to a Spirit guided sanctified and sacrificial life, what was His purpose? Is being born again just another metaphor for doing life your own way with better intentions?

 

[randyk]

Insightful. I would note that during the time of Luder (his actual last name), Calvin was delivering Christian misbehavers to be burned at the stake to both punish, warn others and "purify their soul." 19 people were hanged for "witchcraft" in the "Christian" American community of Salem with many more subject to sever other penalties.

While the mind/body controversy has raged over the centuries, what is unique today is "belief" vs "life." I use the analogy of the mind/body historical problem to illustrate that today, 99.95% of Protestant and Non-Denominational Christianity do not teach or practice anything coherent about the Christian life. Unlike Catholics, we do not practice confession of our sins within our Christian communities. They are deemed too private, embarrassing and irrelevant. We are only concerned with saving souls. The essential - if unspoken - theology on the ground - is that your salvation is an event that frees your lifestyle choices with the exception of homosexual relationships. About 70–74% of Catholics and 76% of mainline Protestants support LGBTQ+ acceptance. But, only 22% of Evangelicals accept homosexuls for membership and only 2% allow same sex marriage. The divorce rate for 1st marriages is 47% in the general public and the same 47% for practicing Christians.

Hundreds of high-profile Christian pastors and church leaders have been found guilty of, or faced credible allegations regarding, sexual crimes, financial fraud, and severe misconduct, with a 2019 report finding roughly 380 Southern Baptist leaders and volunteers were accused over two decades. Over 200 of those, including pastors and youth ministers, were convicted or pleaded guilty. Reports identified nearly 200 Assemblies of God leaders accused of sexual abuse, with many victims being children. Another report found 400 allegations against 168 leaders in Independent Baptist churches. Tip of the iceberg.

People with no religious affiliation (atheists, agnostics, and the "unaffiliated") consistently report higher lifetime suicide attempts and fewer perceived reasons for living in clinical studies. Data indicates that among major religious groups in the U.S., Protestants may have higher suicide rates than Catholics, while groups like Jews and Muslims often show lower rates than Christians. Suicide is extremely personal whoever, is lowest in populations that feel connected, supported and respected in and by communities important to them.

While all Christian Churches have written or agreed to standards of public misbehavior that warrants adjudication, Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use formal and frequently enforced coercive actions. Public shaming and firing has happened more and more frequently in Evangelical Christianity for their most prominent, public facing and criminal behavior. Some for extreme moral failure. Interestingly enough, none I know of have been fired for excessive greed even though many national Evangelical and Non-Denominational leaders have become multi millionaires from their "evangelism."

In summary, we live in a Christian majority nation (67%) where the emphasis is on only two objectives. 1. Being right so God will make you rich. 2. Believing right no matter how you live. The only thing unanimously agreed to is this - if you believe differently than our dogma, you are wrong in the eyes of God.

The social pathologies of the broader Christian community are not much different than those of the pagans. If Jesus did not come to save us from ourselves (preferred euphemism-sins) and provide a path to a Spirit guided sanctified and sacrificial life, what was His purpose? Is being born again just another metaphor for doing life your own way with better intentions?

Way too cynical for me. The statistics are real and bear printing. However, the reality is that God never expected more than a small minority to persevere over time and pressure. "The path is narrow that leads to life and few enter therein."

But that doesn't mean all those who fail to walk the narrow path are going to Hell. Jesus came to show mercy, and he will show mercy to the faithful as well as to those who are moral failures.

What you don't show in your statistics is the difference between Christians who sin and unbelievers who sin. Christians are often ashamed of their sins and hide them. Non-Christians often justify what Christians call sin.

What you don't point out is that many nominal Christians are not really born again. Many Evangelicals are not really born again. Again, the prophets predicted that believing nations would fall to temptation and go into decline, succumbing to those who never really wanted to subscribe to Divine morality at all.

Here we are at the end of the ages with many nations of the world having tasted of the goodness of the age to come. But they have gone the predictable way that Israel went in the OT era. Not a big surprise.

Does this mean that God failed, or even that Christians who walk the walk have failed? Certainly not. We will continue to stay lit and let the sweet perfume of Christ's love be spread abroad or wherever we go. Some will succeed and give hope to others.

 

[biblestudent78]

Way too cynical for me. The statistics are real and bear printing. However, the reality is that God never expected more than a small minority to persevere over time and pressure. "The path is narrow that leads to life and few enter therein."

But that doesn't mean all those who fail to walk the narrow path are going to Hell. Jesus came to show mercy, and he will show mercy to the faithful as well as to those who are moral failures.

What you don't show in your statistics is the difference between Christians who sin and unbelievers who sin. Christians are often ashamed of their sins and hide them. Non-Christians often justify what Christians call sin.

What you don't point out is that many nominal Christians are not really born again. Many Evangelicals are not really born again. Again, the prophets predicted that believing nations would fall to temptation and go into decline, succumbing to those who never really wanted to subscribe to Divine morality at all.

Here we are at the end of the ages with many nations of the world having tasted of the goodness of the age to come. But they have gone the predictable way that Israel went in the OT era. Not a big surprise.

Does this mean that God failed, or even that Christians who walk the walk have failed? Certainly not. We will continue to stay lit and let the sweet perfume of Christ's love be spread abroad or wherever we go. Some will succeed and give hope to others.

There is always optimism in the power of God. Unfortunately, we have a 3,000+ yr record of God abandoning those who are luke Warm.
My almost 70 yrs of observation is that people of all Christian heritages, creeds and convictions can choose to vigorously and faithfully live lives of loving service and commitment to others in service of our King. Too many are being led into a numbed, convenient and unconverted life of self-interest by leaders interested in self preservation, numbers mania, budget driven decisions and salary driven motives. There are entire New Testament passages never mentioned or preached about or taught to avoid any inconvenient truth.

My life experience is full of humble loving servants of Jesus. Not perfect people, but people who clearly understand their part in the mission of Jesus to minister to people, to love people, to serve people without any sense they are saving souls as they know that only God can do that. Their Christian hearts know that people do not care what you know or claim, until they see how much you care about them. People quickly realized the difference between genuine loving people and those that love their dogmas more.