The "Secret Rapture" is a False Doctrine.

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QUOTE
"...The rapture is postrib by man upon the righteous, and pretrib by the Lord upon the unrighteous"

Show me a "wicked people" pretrib rapture
I will wait.


Where is your pre-trib rapture? That's suppose to happen before the tribulation. NOW is suppose to be the time, before the antichrist is revealed, so where is it?

Just talking about it and posting twisted scripture means nothing anymore. Forget about the post-trib rapture. Pre-trib rapture should be happenning now. Where is it?


🕊
 
Where is your pre-trib rapture? That's suppose to happen before the tribulation. NOW is suppose to be the time, before the antichrist is revealed, so where is it?

Just talking about it and posting twisted scripture means nothing anymore. Forget about the post-trib rapture. Pre-trib rapture should be happenning now. Where is it?


🕊
My question was not to you troll.

I would not have bothered since you do not have the courtesy to hold a intellectual conversation, as you demonstrate over and over in your lies about me.

You are here personally.
I am here in "concept vs concept"
You are obsessed personally over me, following me around with baseless baloney.
 
Oh my
I tried to follow your post
But it seems so complicated
And not atall simple
Which this child of God needs
You seem to be making a point against something introduced many years ago
I personally try daily to walk by faith
That ultimately means
I have to fight the daily battle of spirit v flesh
That takes up all my time, focus and effort
I wish I had the time you seem to have to focus on something you feel is so important
I'm not dishing your views
To be honest
I don't really understand the whole subject
I've got something far more pressing to fill my mind
And to put it in the wonderful words of the blues brothers
I work asa 60 year old as a kitchen porter
And every day before entering the kitchen
I pause
Smile at The Father and say
Sunglasses on
I'm on a mission from God
I hope this makes sense?
 
Your understanding is flawed.

He comes back for his bride, the church.

Ahem, HE IS ALREADY THE FIRSTFRUITS AT THE RAPTURE.
The church, is not, and can not possibly be, ANY FIRSTFRUITS of the resurrection.

You really do not understand what is going on.

1cor 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You got everything aspect of firstfruits wrong.
Including the rabbit trail, of "singular vs plural."
In the Bible, the firstfruits (bikkurim) represent the first and best portion of the harvest dedicated to God.
 
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Oh my
I tried to follow your post
But it seems so complicated
And not atall simple
Which this child of God needs
You seem to be making a point against something introduced many years ago
I personally try daily to walk by faith
That ultimately means
I have to fight the daily battle of spirit v flesh
That takes up all my time, focus and effort
I wish I had the time you seem to have to focus on something you feel is so important
I'm not dishing your views
To be honest
I don't really understand the whole subject
I've got something far more pressing to fill my mind
And to put it in the wonderful words of the blues brothers
I work asa 60 year old as a kitchen porter
And every day before entering the kitchen
I pause
Smile at The Father and say
Sunglasses on
I'm on a mission from God
I hope this makes sense?


You're on ignore. Too boring and too sensitive to what I post. No time for that distraction.


🕊
 
QUOTE
"The rapture is postrib by man upon the righteous, and pr"etrib by the Lord upon the unrighteous"

Lol
I have asked you guys many times for a verse supporting your doctrine.
Nobody has ever come up with one.

QUOTE
"The rapture of the church from the earth to meet Jesus in the air, ends their unrighteous tribulation at the hands of the wicked, and begins the Lord's righteous tribulation upon the wicked".

Not sure what you are getting at.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
That fact is vividly portrayed in the virgin parable.
The bride is taken by Jesus to heaven.
Very plain and troubling for postribbers

You can read 1000 posts or videos by postrib rapture teachers

Every one of them omits the bride, bridegroom, wedding, and every pretrib rapture verse.
The very heart of end times off the table.


Forget about post-trib rapture. Your pre-trib rapture is suppose to happen now. Where is it?


🕊
 
In the Bible, the firstfruits (bikkurim) represent the first and best portion of the harvest dedicated to God.
Bingo.
Jesus being the firstfruits points to a main harvest following.
( main harvest follows firstfruits)

You do realize that component is in the way of a doctrine of postrib rapture ?

Why do you think it is missing in their doctrine?

I have never seen a postribber get "firstfruits" correct.
 
Oh my
I tried to follow your post
But it seems so complicated
And not atall simple
Which this child of God needs
You seem to be making a point against something introduced many years ago
I personally try daily to walk by faith
That ultimately means
I have to fight the daily battle of spirit v flesh
That takes up all my time, focus and effort
I wish I had the time you seem to have to focus on something you feel is so important
I'm not dishing your views
To be honest
I don't really understand the whole subject
I've got something far more pressing to fill my mind
And to put it in the wonderful words of the blues brothers
I work asa 60 year old as a kitchen porter
And every day before entering the kitchen
I pause
Smile at The Father and say
Sunglasses on
I'm on a mission from God
I hope this makes sense?
The bible ends with the Spirit and the bride calling out to the groom.
Come Lord Jesus. (The pretrib rapture picture of mat 25)

Only the bride is obsessed with the groom.
....as is heaven.
The SPIRIT calling out to the groom....God's patring, final words He leaves his bride with.
 
QUOTE by ATG;
"...The rapture is postrib by man upon the righteous, and pretrib by the Lord upon the unrighteous"

Show me a "wicked people" pretrib rapture
I will wait.

Still waiting.
 
QUOTE by ATG;
"...The rapture is postrib by man upon the righteous, and pretrib by the Lord upon the unrighteous"

Show me a "wicked people" pretrib rapture
I will wait.

Still waiting.
Postrib and pretrib
These are new abbreviations to me
I'm afraid I find it difficult to keep up
With christianese
I'm a child of the living God and only understand childlike wordings
Sorry for my simplicity
I'm kinda reading between the lines
But there seems differing views on something
This leads to division
Why not share about the daily struggle of spirit v flesh
That's way more edifying
And immediately relatable
May The Spirit of Pure Love fill your heart and guide your mind
 
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Bingo.
Jesus being the firstfruits points to a main harvest following.
( main harvest follows firstfruits)

You do realize that component is in the way of a doctrine of postrib rapture ?

Why do you think it is missing in their doctrine?

I have never seen a postribber get "firstfruits" correct.
Let's use the example Yeshua spoke about in Matthew 24 about Coming in the Clouds and gathering the Elect once Tribulation had ended.

Now let's put that into perspective with the concept of pre-Wrath which believes the Church is removed before the reign of the Antichrist which typically is dealing with the Jews at that time.

Pre-Wrath would be after the Tribulation for the Church because it's removed before having to face the Antichrist and the real Wrath mentioned for the time period after the 3 1/2 year mark is when we see the real destruction taking place + the MOB and the bottomless pit opened up.

But clearly your beheaded reference of Scripture would obviously fall somewhere in the outline I am presenting.

But more than anything it's not pre-trib but removed before the Church would face the Antichrist.
 
Postrib and pretrib
These are new abbreviations to me
I'm afraid I find it difficult to keep up
With christianese
I'm a child of the living God and only understand childlike wordings
Sorry for my simplicity
I'm kinda reading between the lines
But there seems differing views on something
This leads to division
Why not share about the daily struggle of spirit v flesh
That's way more edifying
And immediately relatable
May The Spirit of Pure Love fill your heart and guide your mind
Sounds good to me.
For me, I am not willing to put restrictions on my walk or the bible.
I am fascinated by end times.
Jesus spoke a lot on it.
It is not off limits for me.
 
Sorry lrs68
I don't understand your response
If the Church is removed before the arrival of the Antichrist, and we understand that no serious Wrath is taking place before the arrival of the Antichrist, then Pre-Wrath is a possibility.
Because some scholars believe the Marriage Supper could last the entire Millennium so there's no set rules when it must begin.
 
So the Second Coming of Christ is not a 'secret rapture' or just a 'few that disappear here and there, everyone will see it.
Exactly. Well said. The resurrected saints will also be seen ascending into the air with clouds, even as the two witnesses and the Lord Himself:

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Jde 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 11:11
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


The resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the immortal changing of the saints alive on earth, is in a moment and twinkling of an eye, even as the two witnesses. However, the earth will see their ascension to meet the Lord seen in the air:

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You have to study Gods Word beyond a surface reading to see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming
Actually, it's more just simple reading and taking God at His words. The problem is injecting one's own predetermined ideas and traditions.


Now some can argued that many of the events shown have always existed on the earth, but never has there been a time when all these events were evident in the world simultaneously or the intensity we will see and Gods Word shows us....
Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

While the last days have been since Jesus ascended into heaven, and the churches of the apostles. And such things are cyclic in nature. You are correct, that there will be the last cycle of the last ac just before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Matthew 24:7

To the Christians of the Roman Empire, they believed the Scripture was being fulfilled with the invasion of migrating barbarian tribes, and the destruction of the Pax Romana.

Some later tried to identify the Mongols as the fiery horsemen of Rev 9.
So when we look at the nations of the world today, there may be talk of peace, but it seems the destruction of peoples and lives continues. Numerous additional signs of the imminent return of Christ are given in the Scriptures which testify that the time is near.
And so has said every generation of their own perilous times.

However, there is one certain identifier: The last ac will truly own churches all over the world. And there will be a worldwide great falling away to him from the Christian churches of God:

2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And yet, many believed that was the Roman papacy, which however was only over the known western world.

The last great worldwide ac, will be seated in that greatly corrupted city Jerusalem:

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 
He will be coming in the Clouds together with His angels. Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds.
Correct again. The risen Jesus was seen ascending into heaven with a cloud, by His disciples on earth.

The resurrected saints will likewise be seen ascending into the air with clouds, by all the earth.


The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism.
There's no need to symbolize things that can be done naturally: Clouds being the air at Jesus' coming and ascension of the saints, is visibly believable, especially with the Lord of heaven and earth ensuring the clouds are in the air.

If clouds are angels, then we'd have to conclude Jesus ascended with the help of an angel. Jesus was by Himself ascending into the air with a cloud.

Heb 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


This is where the cloud is not visibly natural, since natural clouds do not see nor hear to be witnesses of anything.

Deu 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

This is likewise figurative of natural heaven and earth encompassing all things done under the sun...
The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels; the Lord is among them, as is Sinai, in the holy place. Psalm 68:17https://ref.ly/Ps 68.17;nkjv?t=biblia
...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3
Ps 68 can be translated the riders with God...Whereas Ps 104 can only be his chariot.

And yet, the comparison between clouds and angels is certainly true. But making clouds His angels is not true, no more than making the wings of the wind His angels.

Scripture is full of comparisons between the natural and spiritual things, and teaching them is good so long as the natural things are not done away. Which leads to turning visible prophecy of Scripture into more supernatural fables and myths.

2Pe 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

The Lord will come with natural clouds of the natural air, And all eyes on earth will see the Lord coming with clouds, and with angels riding with Him:

Rev 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
The Second Coming will be Universally Visible:

The Second Coming will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16
Well done. As we can see, all it takes is simple reading and taking God at His words, to know simple prophecy of Scripture.
https://ref.ly/1 Thess 4.16;nkjv?t=biblia
The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

True again. He will not come down to earth, until after receiving His own unto Himself in the air. Then He comes from the air to make war with the armies at Armageddon, and stand on Mt Olivet from where He ascended with a cloud:

Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Joe 3:16
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
 
It is not secret, Christ comes to take His saints to heaven, it comes before the 1000 years and the saints reign in heaven during that time,

Jde 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
After meeting Him in the air, Scripture declares he cometh with His saints, not departeth with His saints.

He takes His saints down to earth to rule over their cities of reward, with Himself seated on His throne of glory at Jerusalem, as per Ezekiel 40-, and Luke 19:16.

Rev 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


While these prophecies of ruling over cities and nations with rods of iron, and seated on thrones of judgment, are not explicitly on the earth. Rev 5 is reigning explicitly on the earth.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

As well as the returned Lord Jesus explicitly reigning from His mountain house at Jerusalem.

Eze 43:4
And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

Eze 43:7
And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Eze 47:1
Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.


Breaking the nations to shivers with rods of iron, speaks far more of ruling them on the earth, than from heaven.

However, we can say that the angels of God will be visible messengers between the Lord in Jerusalem, and the Father on His throne in heaven.

Jhn 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.


and then and only then does the New Jerusalem come down with Christ and the saints...
On the new earth, not on this earth.

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

You've departed from your previous plain reading of Scriptures, in order to have the saints reigning from heaven, and apparently the New Jerusalem on this earth.

I really don't understand why some Christian baulk at the Lord and His saints reigning on the earth over all the earth, but at least you do acknowledge the thousand year reign of Jesus after His second coming, and with His resurrected saints over all nations of this earth.
 
Let's use the example Yeshua spoke about in Matthew 24 about Coming in the Clouds and gathering the Elect once Tribulation had ended.

Now let's put that into perspective with the concept of pre-Wrath which believes the Church is removed before the reign of the Antichrist which typically is dealing with the Jews at that time.

Pre-Wrath would be after the Tribulation for the Church because it's removed before having to face the Antichrist and the real Wrath mentioned for the time period after the 3 1/2 year mark is when we see the real destruction taking place + the MOB and the bottomless pit opened up.

But clearly your beheaded reference of Scripture would obviously fall somewhere in the outline I am presenting.

But more than anything it's not pre-trib but removed before the Church would face the Antichrist.
That passage,you are referencing, has Jesus coming in power and great glory.
Mat 24
30;And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 19 passage also describes the second coming on white horses in power and great glory.

Mat 24 "power and great glory " passage is the second coming with the saints, gathered by angels, not Jesus, in heaven, who are now called the wife.( in heaven).

Postribs claim the church never goes to heaven at the rapture, but do a made up uturn, in the sky.
That DIRECTLY contradicts the virgin parable, Rev 19, and the last supper dialogue.