Loss of salvation???
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The theology behind any and all works-based salvation AND works maintenance stand in direct opposition to Paul’s teachings in Galatians. The belief that a true believer can or must maintain their salvation through works after coming to Christ, that's a rejection of the sufficiency in the shed Blood of Christ and His work on our behalf.
Some point to James 2, and yet assume salvation itself is bolstered by injecting that concept into the statements James made in relation to true faith evidenced through the natural outflow of good works versus a false faith that produces, in and of itself, no good works. In other words, Mother Teresa is ASSUMED to have been saved because of all her good works, which is a corruption of what James was saying.
All who are truly saved do indeed show proof of their salvation by good works in relation to the works-based salvational model, which leads to a false, non-existent salvation. However, James was not at all saying that good works lead to bolstering up one's salvation and thus maintaining it. That's the cart before the horse kind of dichotomy.
Salvational maintenance is a purely flesh-based concoction of worldly people who do not rest in the assurance of salvation itself apart from their works. They have no definition for whare that line rests as to what level of works is acceptable as defining proof for their alleged salvation and they CERTAINLY never attempt to define the line over which one may lose his salvation...as if that were ever possible.
If I'm walking around a store with a cart full of merchandise, they don't arrest me until after I try to leave the store without paying. Works-based salvation is akin to having to pay as one enters the store to shop, which isn't a viable model in any economy.
MM
Some point to James 2, and yet assume salvation itself is bolstered by injecting that concept into the statements James made in relation to true faith evidenced through the natural outflow of good works versus a false faith that produces, in and of itself, no good works. In other words, Mother Teresa is ASSUMED to have been saved because of all her good works, which is a corruption of what James was saying.
All who are truly saved do indeed show proof of their salvation by good works in relation to the works-based salvational model, which leads to a false, non-existent salvation. However, James was not at all saying that good works lead to bolstering up one's salvation and thus maintaining it. That's the cart before the horse kind of dichotomy.
Salvational maintenance is a purely flesh-based concoction of worldly people who do not rest in the assurance of salvation itself apart from their works. They have no definition for whare that line rests as to what level of works is acceptable as defining proof for their alleged salvation and they CERTAINLY never attempt to define the line over which one may lose his salvation...as if that were ever possible.
If I'm walking around a store with a cart full of merchandise, they don't arrest me until after I try to leave the store without paying. Works-based salvation is akin to having to pay as one enters the store to shop, which isn't a viable model in any economy.
MM
Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Beware of the gospel according to SELF.
SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation
May we always promote Jesus Christ and not end up exploiting Jesus Christ in order to promote SELF.
Paul never taught the grace of the Lord leads people to live in sin.
Anybody thinking that is following doctrines of demons
The demons are using one snippet of scripture out of context to trick Christians in to believing they can never stop sinning and to trick them that they are blessed by the Lord as they continue living in sin. And satan is laughing at how easy it is to deceive gullible and ignorant people who are too lazy to actually read God's Word and believe it!
1 John 1:8 is obviously speaking of if we claim we have never sinned... 1 John 1:10 says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us"
The very next verse tells us if we confess our sins the Lord cleanses us of ALL unrighteousness... so is 1 John1:8 claiming 1 John1:9 is un-true??? You aren't claiming the Blood of Jesus is unable to cleanse one of their sin under 1 John1:9 are ya?
All things are possible thru Christ (Philippians 4:13), so THRU JESUS we actually DO have the ability to stop sinning IF, IF we humble ourselves under His Mighty Hand (that's God's Word at God's Right Hand - Jesus Who is THE Christ)
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil
So WHY would anybody want to be like the devil and continue living in sin???
Those that are tares, that's who.
Are YOU saying you are of the devil???
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil
WHY have to refused to believe other things the Lord says in His Word about this???
That tis the question:
John 8:34
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Galatians 5:16
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 2:14,15
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Did you cut all these passage out of your bible???
How long will you continue to believe 1 John1:9 is un-true???
Romans 7 man is not a Christian.
The answer to Romans 7 is Romans 8 so WHY didn't you keep reading and believe Romans 8?
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
WHEN are you going to start learning from God's Word how to walk in the Spirit?
Galatians 5:16
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Why not open your eyes and start paying attention to the very powerful promises and cease from living in sin and being a sinner???
All the "sinners" might want to get with the program and overcome sin thru the leading of the Holy Spirit so their names are not blotted out of the Book of Life:
Revelation 3:5
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
And yet the anti-grace gangs out there almost always argue that we who believe in salvation by grace through faith alone, the accusation almost always follows in our allegedly believing living in sin that grace may about more...no. They are wrong, and the accusation itself is groundless.
I've not heard anyone say that it's ok to go on sinning since we're going to do it anyway. I've heard that accusation many a time, but never have I ever seen any substance behind it in what others say.
Cleanse, yes. Of course. That's what John, an apostle to Israel, preached to us Israelis back then.
The difference, however, is in the direction of that cleansing of which you speak. The works-based salvationists claim its only backward looking, never forward. The problem with that nonsense is that dare one sin just once after "confession" and then die suddenly, they're in trouble. Saved by grace through faith is bi-directional in its scope given that we are SEALED by Holy Spirit, but marked with a tattoo that washes off within seconds after "confession."
The commands to not sin, that's just common sense, not indicative for some danger of losing salvation.
MM
No, please address the initial post with something other than opinion, thanks
It has nothing to do with opinion to observe to whom John was addressing. To say that he was also speaking to Gentiles throughout the future beyond his scope of influence is to dabble in replacement theology. Gentiles did not replace Israel. We will once again rise back up from our fallen state and restored as a nation.
Again, not opinion...it's biblical fact.
MM
Well one has to be saved first. Let me explain. Some people believe you are born again because you said a prayer. The Bible does not support this. You will not find ask Jesus in my heart prayer anywhere in scripture. John 3:3-5 explains one must be born again to see and enter the kingdom. John 3:13 says Jesus was living in heaven and on earth at the same time. There is a process to be born again. For example consider a pregnancy test the Lord’s Prayer of salvation. Just because a woman tested positive does not mean a baby has been born. There is still a formation phase of the embryo to evolve and grow into a baby. The mystery of Christ in you. Col. 1:27. Christ comes in you like a seed and egg birthing an embryo. We must nurture Jesus in our hearts and develop our spirits. There are stages to be born again and also formation from a baby to a teenager to an adult. Jesus gives many parables explaining this process but he never says there are shortcuts. Everyone must pass through the formation phase. Matthew 13 and Mark 4 explains developing Jesus as a seed being sown and growing and developing. In order to be saved one must work out his salvation to save his whole spirit, soul, and body. 1 Thess. 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12. The parable of the sower where it talks about the results 30 percent(spirit), 60 percent(soul), and the 100 percent(body). Another way Jesus puts it is like leaven. Just because leaven is in the dough it still needs worked on until it rises and expands. The formation of Christ in you is a process of building up your spiritual house until completion. This is why only few people find the narrow way. Count the cost and determine if you will pay the price to build otherwise if you are not willing to surrender you will start building and look like a fool if you give up midway. Jesus mentions another parable for this as well. Life of a Jesus disciple is hard and narrow and one must take up their cross daily and deny themselves. The answer to your question is not did I lose my salvation it’s whether or not you were born again in the first place and are you willing to be a house where the Holy Spirit can dwell. Do not be deceived with this Holy Spirit lives inside us than out of the same lips declaring i am a sinner. Holy Spirit can not dwell where there is sin. He can dwell where he has built. When we build apart from the Lord than we have built in vain and fall and collapse and realize our house was built with hay, stubble, and on sand. Matthew 7. The fires of life expose how you build and determines if you have built well. If what you have built collapses than ask God for wisdom James 1 and start building again. There are no such things as a failed test in Heaven. Only grace to rise and walk and try again. You only fail when you give up completely and stop building. Your focus should not be on failure because God sees you forgiven and 1 John 2 says if we do fall in the process of building we can ask Jesus for forgiveness. Than you fall and get back up and dont stop building. Keep building until you reach heaven.
Even as an Israeli, I don't want to enter that kingdom because that would require me going through the tribulation. No thanks. I'd rather be in Heavenly places as scripture declares for the body of Christ.
I'm saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Christ's death, burial and resurrection on the third day, and nothing else...not works or things of personal effort in my part,
MM
The only way to a resurrection is through death. Overcoming sin is taking up your cross. I did not mention anything about having to go through the great tribulation. I can tell you this flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Explain this verse than,
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT your own salvation with fear and trembling.
i also never stated that our works save us. What I am stating is stewarding the gift God has given us. What Jesus did on the cross and redeem our spirit we could not do. It is our job like a baker working out leaven throughout the dough to workout our salvation saving our soul and body. If you think you do not have to do anything you have been deceived. There is a reason why Jesus said narrow is the way and very FEW people find it. You still have to be obedient to Gods word which requires work. You have to deny yourself which also requires work. Paul also stated to be a wise builder which also requires work. If you don’t want to put in the work that’s okay. That is why Jesus taught a parable on counting the cost.
Declaring and obedience are two different things. It is easy to confess spiritual things and still have a heart far away from God.
The Pharisees said the same thing to Jesus when he declared He was the Son of God. If we are IN Christ than we ought to walk as He walked. The Pharisees also wrestled with this and asked are you saying you without sin? 1 John 3. The Bible makes it very clear it is because of grace we overcome sin.
Sorry I was having issues yesterday and when I tried to edit your post out of that response I couldn't in time.
In respect to baptism and being freed from sin Jesus said not John, not Matthew.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
That's a good question. Looking at the wording of that verse carefully, notice that it instructs that we work OUT...meaning outwardly from ourselves in the Greek...not work TWORD or FOR our salvation since that's a gift not earned nor maintained. It does not speak at all toward some means for maintenance of salvation. In the midst of our salvation, we work outwardly FROM our salvation the good works, very much akin to what James stated in chapter two of that book written to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Would you clarify your meaning about this for us? Thanks.
Agreed.
I disagree because of what appears to be your misunderstanding of what Paul was saying up there in Philippians.
That's a valid concern toward people I don't think I have ever met. It's not about NOT doing anything. Doing good works as an outflow from our salvation is empowered through the sanctifying work of Holy Spirit within the truly saved individual. The problem arises when people think that their good works are somehow a supplement or a causal power FOR their salvation, they are believing in another gospel preached to them by the accursed.
Works-based salvation, which includes works-based maintenance of salvation are both false on every level under the Gospel of Grace.
Yes, but he was not talking about building one's salvation. Good works are the conduit through which we store up treasure, reward in Heaven, not supplementing our salvation here.
Nobody ever suggested NOT doing good works. That's a manic injection from those out there who invent in the minds of others inferior things that those other people never said.
That goes hand-in-hand with the adoptions of the false, works-based system of salvational maintenance. When one is SEALED by Holy Spirit, one is sealed...period. One cannot become unborn again, that seal cannot be broken without injecting that concept into the scriptures where it is nowhere stated in relation to us today, and the Lord will never forfeit His own Spirit by taking away salvation from even one soul.
MM
You raise a good point. We often misinterpret what the apostles say because we assume all of the readers of the epistles are children of God and followers of Jesus. I don't think that is necessarily the case.
And yet that's exactly what the OSAS folks teach is that one is still saved even if they live in sin.
They must reject the whole counsel of God in order to reach that conclusion
Go study what so called "reformed theology" teaches for a while which is where the false doctrine of OSAS came from
And there was have it folks - the false teaching that one can sin and still be in right standing with the Lord.
Nobody is saying we can overcome sin without being saved by grace through faith which leads to action.
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
If it were by faith alone and no action is required on our part... then Jesus would not have said “let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me” in Luke 9:23.
Only living faith saves, since faith without works is dead... faith alone is not saving faith because there's no good fruit being produced by that faith because it is dead as in the person is not acting like their faith is true and real. Folks that believe this are deceived according to James 1:22 which tells us to “doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.
God does not accept dead faith as that faith is no better than the devil’s faith! (James 2:19)
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Philippians 4:13 tells us "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me" so this agrees with John 15 that the Lord is the One bearing good fruit thru us IF we are co laborers with the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us (Romans 8:14) and IF we allow the Holy Spirit to live in us (Romans 8:9)
Matthew 7:18,19
A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Reckon Jesus didn't get the memo from the so called reformers that salvation is by faith only??? (see James 2:14-26)