The book of Job

[christophernyc]

You are absolutely right, that I mis-spoke, when I said Job did not say anything right.

Can you find any place that Job spoke of God's goodness, righteousness, or mercy?

How is that the standard for Job's test? And who decided it?

The test was if Job lost his (1) his possessions, and (2) lost his health, that he would curse God. That's the test.

By the end, Job does not curse God, and God restores him. That's the story in a nutshell. As the Apostle James points out, Job "endures". He passes the test.

It appears you may continue to move goal posts and invent new qualifiers at any turn.

Also, have you noticed the pattern of how your assessments tend to be untethered from what is written?

 

[tttallison]

How is that the standard for Job's test? And who decided it?

The test was if Job lost his (1) his possessions, and (2) lost his health, that he would curse God. That's the test.

By the end, Job does not curse God, and God restores him. That's the story in a nutshell. As the Apostle James points out, Job "endures". He passes the test.

It appears you may continue to move goal posts and invent new qualifiers at any turn.

Also, have you noticed the pattern of how your assessments tend to be untethered from what is written?

After the second test Job did not bless God, nor did God absolve Job.

You made this statement, "Job does glorify God for everything, like Moses glorified God."

My question was not about the two tests, but whether Job ever acknowledged God's goodness, God's righteousness, or God's mercy. And if Job did not mention God's goodness, God's righteousness, or God's mercy, then your statement that Job does glorify God for everything, like Moses glorified God is false. And so far, you have refused to answer the question.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Is the serpent presented here Satan?

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Is the serpent presented here Satan?

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. Is the serpent presented here Satan?
Which one of these serpents is king over all the children of pride?

what you know and understand about leviathan is miles apart from what Job and his friends knew or understood about leviathan.

You know this chapter alludes to satan ... Job and his friends did not. As far as they were concerned, God described a mighty sea creature which was impossible for man to catch with a hook or a rope (vs 2) ... leviathan would not beg for favorable treatment, nor would leviathan speak gently (vs 3) ... leviathan was untamable and would not make an agreement to serve Job at any time, much less "forever" (vs 4) ... Job could not play with leviathan, nor could Job ever turn leviathan over as a plaything to others (vs 5) ...

Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Is this what Satan did to Eve?

where did satan ever speak outright to Job? chapter and verse, please.

satan spoke to God about Job and challenged God's word concerning Job.

It is obvious that God thought Job was taking the serpent for a servant, or else God would not have asked Job if he was taking the serpent for a servant forever. Does God also mis-speak as does Job?

All these verses are rhetorical/ironic in nature. The use of rhetoric/irony is very effective, and is meant to bring to conclusion the fact that God, as Creator, is so far above His creation that it is absolutely useless for Job (or anyone else for that matter) to consider that he had any other avenue than complete trust and faith in God ... no matter the emotional pain Job experienced in losing his children ... or the physical pain Job endured in the boils he had all over his body.

I apologize for the statement about translations. Most of the translations present that the serpent is acting as a threshing machine that is dragging the potsherds through the mire, with the intent that they are being refined.

please provide the translations which state what you claim.

I provided Job 41:30 in the various Bible versions here and I am providing them again for you:

New International Version
Its undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

New Living Translation
Its belly is covered with scales as sharp as glass. It plows up the ground as it drags through the mud.

English Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds; he spreads himself like a threshing sledge on the mire.

New American Standard Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of pottery; He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mud.

Amplified Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of broken pottery; He moves across and spreads out [grooves] like a threshing sledge on the mire (muddy river banks).

American Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: He spreadeth as it were a threshing-wain upon the mire.

English Revised Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: he spreadeth as it were a threshing wain upon the mire.

International Standard Version
"Beneath him he is armored as with sharp potsherds; he tears through muddy ground like a threshing sledge through grain.

NET Bible
Its underparts are the sharp points of potsherds, it leaves its mark in the mud like a threshing sledge.


The verse clearly states that the scales on the underside of leviathan were like sharp potsherds which left a trail in the mud.

The verse does not state that Job was a potsherd being refined by satan.

.

 

[tttallison]

what you know and understand about leviathan is miles apart from what Job and his friends knew or understood about leviathan.

You know this chapter alludes to satan ... Job and his friends did not. As far as they were concerned, God described a mighty sea creature which was impossible for man to catch with a hook or a rope (vs 2) ... leviathan would not beg for favorable treatment, nor would leviathan speak gently (vs 3) ... leviathan was untamable and would not make an agreement to serve Job at any time, much less "forever" (vs 4) ... Job could not play with leviathan, nor could Job ever turn leviathan over as a plaything to others (vs 5) ...





where did satan ever speak outright to Job? chapter and verse, please.

satan spoke to God about Job and challenged God's word concerning Job.





All these verses are rhetorical/ironic in nature. The use of rhetoric/irony is very effective, and is meant to bring to conclusion the fact that God, as Creator, is so far above His creation that it is absolutely useless for Job (or anyone else for that matter) to consider that he had any other avenue than complete trust and faith in God ... no matter the emotional pain Job experienced in losing his children ... or the physical pain Job endured in the boils he had all over his body.





please provide the translations which state what you claim.

I provided Job 41:30 in the various Bible versions here and I am providing them again for you:

New International Version
Its undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

New Living Translation
Its belly is covered with scales as sharp as glass. It plows up the ground as it drags through the mud.

English Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds; he spreads himself like a threshing sledge on the mire.

New American Standard Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of pottery; He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mud.

Amplified Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of broken pottery; He moves across and spreads out [grooves] like a threshing sledge on the mire (muddy river banks).

American Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: He spreadeth as it were a threshing-wain upon the mire.

English Revised Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: he spreadeth as it were a threshing wain upon the mire.

International Standard Version
"Beneath him he is armored as with sharp potsherds; he tears through muddy ground like a threshing sledge through grain.

NET Bible
Its underparts are the sharp points of potsherds, it leaves its mark in the mud like a threshing sledge.


The verse clearly states that the scales on the underside of leviathan were like sharp potsherds which left a trail in the mud.

The verse does not state that Job was a potsherd being refined by satan.

.

God calls those that strive with him "potsherds", and Job was definitely striving with God, for God said so.

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

The word contendeth and the word striveth are translated from a single Hebrew word.

In Mosaic Law the earthen vessel that is laden with sin must be broken, and that is exactly what happened to Job. Potsherds are broken earthen vessels.

Lev 6:28 But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God calls those that strive with him "potsherds", and Job was definitely striving with God, for God said so.

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

The word contendeth and the word striveth are translated from a single Hebrew word.

The Hebrew word rîḇ is translated as follows:

"plead" 27 times; "strive" 13 times; "contend" 12 times; "chide" 6 times; "debate" 2 times

the word rîḇ is translated as "plead" twice in Job:

Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead [Hebrew = rîḇ] with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

then Job goes on to ask God:

Job 13:20-23

20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee.

21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Job pleaded (contended according to you) with God ... do not withdraw Your Hand from me ... do not cause me to be afraid.

Then Job asked "how many are my iniquities and sins? ... make me to know my transgression and my sin" ... not in an effort to "contend" with God, but in an effort to repent so his relationship with God could be restored.

However, Job was under attack from satan ... not God ... and for no other reason than that he was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3). What will it take to get you to understand that not all attacks from satan against the believer are due to sin on the part of the believer?


Job 23:6 Will he plead [Hebrew = rîḇ] against me with his great power? No; but he would put strength in me.

Job knew that if he could speak with God, as he had prior to satan's attack, he would receive strength from God so he could withstand. Job thought he was alone in his suffering and he desperately sought God's close presence, God's strength.


I do not know why the translators chose to translate the Hebrew word rîḇ into English word "contendeth" in Job 40:2 as opposed to "plead" as in other verses in Job.

In Mosaic Law the earthen vessel that is laden with sin must be broken, and that is exactly what happened to Job. Potsherds are broken earthen vessels.

Lev 6:28 But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water.

read the verse in context tttallison:

Leviticus 6:24-28

24 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

26 The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation.

27 Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.

28 But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water.

vs 28 refers to the vessel in which the burnt offering is cooked ("sodden"). If the vessel in which the offering was cooked was an earthenware pot, it was broken. if the vessel in which the offering was cooked was a copper or bronze pot, the pot was scoured clean and rinsed in water.

The reason the earthenware pot was to be broken has more to do with the fact that the offering cooked within the vessel was most holy (vs 25), and whatever touched the offering was holy (vs 27).

In an earthenware pot, which is porous, there could have been some remnant of the offering left in the pot. Rather than have the pot (now a holy vessel) used for common purposes, the instruction was to break it in pieces so it was unusable.

The metal pot was not porous and once scoured clean and rinsed in water, nothing of the offering was left in the pot. The pot could continue to be used for common purposes.

.

 

[tttallison]

The Hebrew word rîḇ is translated as follows:

"plead" 27 times; "strive" 13 times; "contend" 12 times; "chide" 6 times; "debate" 2 times

the word rîḇ is translated as "plead" twice in Job:

Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead [Hebrew = rîḇ] with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

then Job goes on to ask God:

Job 13:20-23

20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee.

21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Job pleaded (contended according to you) with God ... do not withdraw Your Hand from me ... do not cause me to be afraid.

Then Job asked "how many are my iniquities and sins? ... make me to know my transgression and my sin" ... not in an effort to "contend" with God, but in an effort to repent so his relationship with God could be restored.

However, Job was under attack from satan ... not God ... and for no other reason than that he was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3). What will it take to get you to understand that not all attacks from satan against the believer are due to sin on the part of the believer?


Job 23:6 Will he plead [Hebrew = rîḇ] against me with his great power? No; but he would put strength in me.

Job knew that if he could speak with God, as he had prior to satan's attack, he would receive strength from God so he could withstand. Job thought he was alone in his suffering and he desperately sought God's close presence, God's strength.


I do not know why the translators chose to translate the Hebrew word rîḇ into English word "contendeth" in Job 40:2 as opposed to "plead" as in other verses in Job.







read the verse in context tttallison:

Leviticus 6:24-28

24 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it is most holy.

26 The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation.

27 Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.

28 But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water.

vs 28 refers to the vessel in which the burnt offering is cooked ("sodden"). If the vessel in which the offering was cooked was an earthenware pot, it was broken. if the vessel in which the offering was cooked was a copper or bronze pot, the pot was scoured clean and rinsed in water.

The reason the earthenware pot was to be broken has more to do with the fact that the offering cooked within the vessel was most holy (vs 25), and whatever touched the offering was holy (vs 27).

In an earthenware pot, which is porous, there could have been some remnant of the offering left in the pot. Rather than have the pot (now a holy vessel) used for common purposes, the instruction was to break it in pieces so it was unusable.

The metal pot was not porous and once scoured clean and rinsed in water, nothing of the offering was left in the pot. The pot could continue to be used for common purposes.

.

What about wood, is it porous?

Lev 15:12 And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water.

Jer 18:1-7 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

There are no less than Ten verses that refer to man as a vessel of clay which God has made and broken.

Is the narrative to protect Job's purity so important as to dismiss all scripture that reflects poorly on Job?

You are contending that Job did not strive with God, and yet all the translations say otherwise. None of the translations that I read say plead in Job 40:2. They do say that Job argued, reproved, rebuked, found fault, disputes, instructs him, accuses, strives, contends, and corrects God.

 

[christophernyc]

Then Job asked "how many are my iniquities and sins? ... make me to know my transgression and my sin" ... not in an effort to "contend" with God, but in an effort to repent so his relationship with God could be restored.

Exactly. In the end, this is precisely what happens when God appears. Job’s prayer to meet with God is answered, and his relationship with God is restored.

 

[tttallison]

Exactly. In the end, this is precisely what happens when God appears. Job’s prayer to meet with God is answered, and his relationship with God is restored.

Are you also saying Job did not strive with God.

You are contending that Job did not strive with God, and yet all the translations say otherwise. None of the translations that I read say plead in Job 40:2. They do say that Job argued, reproved, rebuked, found fault, disputes, instructs him, accuses, strives, contends, and corrects God.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

bump...

Let me ask you this; Can a person's own righteousness save him?

My response

Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. Ezek 14:20

No comment?

 

[tttallison]

No comment?

No! They can put on God's robe of righteousness (put on Christ), but their own righteousness (I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.) cannot.

Pro 30:21 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What about wood, is it porous?

Lev 15:12 And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water.

tttallison, please provide the verse in Leviticus 6 that speaks of a vessel of wood.

Jer 18:1-7 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

There are no less than Ten verses that refer to man as a vessel of clay which God has made and broken.

so? It is quite evident that it was satan ... not God ... who attacked Job (Job 2:7) ... what sin had Job committed before satan attacked him ... please show me the verse.

Is the narrative to protect Job's purity so important as to dismiss all scripture that reflects poorly on Job?

no one is "protecting" Job ... I am reading what is written. And I have mentioned, more than once, that Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu all spoke accurately, and all said some things that were not accurate due to their ignorance that Job was not being punished for any sin on his part ... that Job was under attack from satan. None of them understood that fact and the only reason you and I understand it is because God tells us in chapters 1 and 2.

You are contending that Job did not strive with God, and yet all the translations say otherwise. None of the translations that I read say plead in Job 40:2. They do say that Job argued, reproved, rebuked, found fault, disputes, instructs him, accuses, strives, contends, and corrects God.

and I showed you that the word rîḇ is translated as follows:

"plead" 27 times; "strive" 13 times; "contend" 12 times; "chide" 6 times; "debate" 2 times.

I showed you the earlier verses where the word rîḇ was translated as "plead" when Job pleaded with God ... God finally gave Job the chance to rîḇ with Him and Job's response was "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further" (Job 40:4-5).

Why did Job answer in that manner after pleading with God to answer him? ... it was because Job received what he had asked for ... God finally came as Job had wanted the whole time he was going through what he was going through at the hand of satan ... not the Hand of God.

read the verse tttallison:

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

It was satan who smote Job ... not God. You can wrangle with God's Word all you want in your efforts to support your erroneous claim that Job was being punished by God for misbehaving.

.

 

[tttallison]

tttallison, please provide the verse in Leviticus 6 that speaks of a vessel of wood.





so? It is quite evident that it was satan ... not God ... who attacked Job (Job 2:7) ... what sin had Job committed before satan attacked him ... please show me the verse.





no one is "protecting" Job ... I am reading what is written. And I have mentioned, more than once, that Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu all spoke accurately, and all said some things that were not accurate due to their ignorance that Job was not being punished for any sin on his part ... that Job was under attack from satan. None of them understood that fact and the only reason you and I understand it is because God tells us in chapters 1 and 2.





and I showed you that the word rîḇ is translated as follows:

"plead" 27 times; "strive" 13 times; "contend" 12 times; "chide" 6 times; "debate" 2 times.

I showed you the earlier verses where the word rîḇ was translated as "plead" when Job pleaded with God ... God finally gave Job the chance to rîḇ with Him and Job's response was "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further" (Job 40:4-5).

Why did Job answer in that manner after pleading with God to answer him? ... it was because Job received what he had asked for ... God finally came as Job had wanted the whole time he was going through what he was going through at the hand of satan ... not the Hand of God.

read the verse tttallison:

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

It was satan who smote Job ... not God. You can wrangle with God's Word all you want in your efforts to support your erroneous claim that Job was being punished by God for misbehaving.

.

It would seem that you don't accept what God says about Job, so why should I expect that you would accept anything I say.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Exactly. In the end, this is precisely what happens when God appears. Job’s prayer to meet with God is answered, and his relationship with God is restored.

right? It's written right there in the Book of Job.

God tells us in Romans 15:4 ...

4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

we see what Job went through at the hand of satan and how Job dealt with his friends who continuously claimed he was being punished by God for some sort of sin on his part ... all the while they were ignorant of satan's devices.

God has provided much more information to us in our day and time than what Job and his friends were aware of in Job's time.

And still we've got folks in our day and time who read the Book of Job with the mindset that the only reason Job suffered at the hand of satan was because he had sinned and had not repented.

And the whole time Job was responding to the words of his friends ... Job was not responding to anything God said until the end because God did not speak to him until then.

And Job's response to God was "I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further."

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It would seem that you don't accept what God says about Job, so why should I expect that you would accept anything I say.

My Bible tells me that God told satan that Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". God said it three times (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7). Do you "accept what God says about Job"?

If you can show me the verse where God says that Job sinned before satan attacked Job, you might have a point.

And I'm not talking about the times Job misspoke ("uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not" Job 42:3) in his response to his friends who accused him of sin he needed to repent of which was why God was punishing him. We know God was not punishing Job ... we know satan went after Job in his effort to challenge the word spoken by God concerning Job.

What would you say to a friend who accused you of sin when you know you had not sinned? Would you agree with your friend (which would be a lie and that would be sin)? ... or would you tell your friend he or she is in error?

Then try to imagine having this discussion with three friends accusing you of sin while you were suffering with boils from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

.

 

[tttallison]

My Bible tells me that God told satan that Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". God said it three times (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7). Do you "accept what God says about Job"?

If you can show me the verse where God says that Job sinned before satan attacked Job, you might have a point.

And I'm not talking about the times Job misspoke ("uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not" Job 42:3) in his response to his friends who accused him of sin he needed to repent of which was why God was punishing him. We know God was not punishing Job ... we know satan went after Job in his effort to challenge the word spoken by God concerning Job.

What would you say to a friend who accused you of sin when you know you had not sinned? Would you agree with your friend (which would be a lie and that would be sin)? ... or would you tell your friend he or she is in error?

Then try to imagine having this discussion with three friends accusing you of sin while you were suffering with boils from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

.

I can't show you where Job sinned before his first test. God declared Job upright because Job was without knowledge and thought he was doing right. Job had not knowingly sinned against God. We only know sin because God gave us his law. What we would call sin God did not hold Job accountable for.

When Job sent widows away empty it was because he judged them to be not worthy. It was the same when he broke the arms of the fatherless. It was Job's righteousness that was making the call on the widows and fatherless, and we all know that man's righteousness is as filthy rags. Job was without knowledge and was not capable of making a just call, therefore God did not hold Job accountable.

Job said, Job 30:1-8 But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock. Yea, whereto might the strength of their hands profit me, in whom old age was perished? For want and famine they were solitary; fleeing into the wilderness in former time desolate and waste. Who cut up mallows by the bushes, and juniper roots for their meat. They were driven forth from among men, (they cried after them as after a thief To dwell in the clifts of the valleys, in caves of the earth, and in the rocks. Among the bushes they brayed; under the nettles they were gathered together. They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.

So much for Job giving out pensions, when his servants were too old to be a benefit he cast them out. He didn't do that with his sons though, did he?

Job never said God was good nor righteous. What Job said about God was that God was unjust and would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job had said much about his own goodness though, didn't he?

Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken. (Who knows you better than your best friends?)

Job's three friends sat with him for seven days and seven nights in silence. It wasn't until after Job started cursing that they had anything to say. They all felt he was a hypocrite.

 

[christophernyc]

After the second test Job did not bless God, nor did God absolve Job.

You made this statement, "Job does glorify God for everything, like Moses glorified God."

My question was not about the two tests, but whether Job ever acknowledged God's goodness, God's righteousness, or God's mercy. And if Job did not mention God's goodness, God's righteousness, or God's mercy, then your statement that Job does glorify God for everything, like Moses glorified God is false. And so far, you have refused to answer the question.

As previously stated several times, everything Job had, or said, or did was because of God. Job freely acknowledges that fact and gives God all the glory. Just because Job does not use the same verbiage as Moses does not automatically imply that Job does not believe the same as Moses. Plus they are speaking in two totally different contexts.

Job is demonstrating wisdom in both tests. Perhaps you have researched this already, but this book is part of what is considered "Wisdom Literature". Wisdom is defined in Job chapter 28 this way:

Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

This is the same way God describes Job and his character in the beginning of the story. Job is one who fears God and shuns evil.

So, look at the tests Job is tried with in chapters 1 & 2. In the first test, Job demonstrates a fear of God when he says:

Job 1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Then in the second test, Job demonstrates how he shuns evil after his wife urges him to "curse God and die".

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

 

[tttallison]

As previously stated several times, everything Job had, or said, or did was because of God. Job freely acknowledges that fact and gives God all the glory. Just because Job does not use the same verbiage as Moses does not automatically imply that Job does not believe the same as Moses. Plus they are speaking in two totally different contexts.

Job is demonstrating wisdom in both tests. Perhaps you have researched this already, but this book is part of what is considered "Wisdom Literature". Wisdom is defined in Job chapter 28 this way:

Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

This is the same way God describes Job and his character in the beginning of the story. Job is one who fears God and shuns evil.

So, look at the tests Job is tried with in chapters 1 & 2. In the first test, Job demonstrates a fear of God when he says:

Job 1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Then in the second test, Job demonstrates how he shuns evil after his wife urges him to "curse God and die".

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

What does the bible say about verbiage?

Job definitely did not believe as Moses believed. Moses said, Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Job never said God was a God of truth and without iniquity, and in fact Job said just the opposite. Job said God was unjust. Job said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job said God multiplied his wounds without cause. Job reproved God and condemned God. Moses never did any such thing.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I can't show you where Job sinned before his first test. God declared Job upright because Job was without knowledge and thought he was doing right. Job had not knowingly sinned against God. We only know sin because God gave us his law. What we would call sin God did not hold Job accountable for.

No God did not declare Job upright "because Job was without knowledge and thought he was doing right" ... that is your human reasoning.

We are to align our thoughts to the truth of Scripture ... when we try to align God's Word to our own human reasoning, we end up in error in our understanding.

God declared Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". God said it three times (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7). Do you "accept what God says about Job"?

When Job sent widows away empty it was because he judged them to be not worthy. It was the same when he broke the arms of the fatherless. It was Job's righteousness that was making the call on the widows and fatherless, and we all know that man's righteousness is as filthy rags. Job was without knowledge and was not capable of making a just call, therefore God did not hold Job accountable.

You are repeating the false claim of Eliphaz:

Job 22:1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,

Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.


Job cleared up the error of Eliphaz:

Job 29:12-13 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him. The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.


You are quick to believe all the negative claims made by Job's friends against Job ... and make negative claims about Job yourself ... but you do not believe God when He claims Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7). What's up with that, tttallison???

Job said, Job 30:1-8 But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock. Yea, whereto might the strength of their hands profit me, in whom old age was perished? For want and famine they were solitary; fleeing into the wilderness in former time desolate and waste. Who cut up mallows by the bushes, and juniper roots for their meat. They were driven forth from among men, (they cried after them as after a thief; ) To dwell in the clifts of the valleys, in caves of the earth, and in the rocks. Among the bushes they brayed; under the nettles they were gathered together. They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.

So much for Job giving out pensions, when his servants were too old to be a benefit he cast them out. He didn't do that with his sons though, did he?

You have completely mangled the meaning of the text, tttallison.

Job lamented that the state he was in after satan's attack was such that he was mocked by young men whose fathers were base men: they were viler than the earth (vs 8).

These men that were viler than the earth were such that Job would not hire them to watch over the dogs of his flock (vs 1).

I suppose if you were in Job's shoes, you would hire men that were viler than the earth ... would you do that tttallison? ... or would you have the wisdom to spare your flocks and herds from men that were viler than the earth?

Job never said God was good nor righteous. What Job said about God was that God was unjust and would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job had said much about his own goodness though, didn't he?

I have asked you several times and you have not answered ... what would you say if someone was lying about you? claiming you had sinned when you had not? That is what Job was going through even as he suffered with boils from head to toe.

What would you say to someone who was lying about you even as you were at your lowest point ... how would you respond, tttallison?

Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken. (Who knows you better than your best friends?)

God knows better than anyone and God told Eliphaz My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7).

Job's three friends sat with him for seven days and seven nights in silence. It wasn't until after Job started cursing that they had anything to say. They all felt he was a hypocrite.

Job cursed the current situation he found himself in ... Job did not curse God.

Job even lamented the night he was conceived (Job 3:3). Job felt it would have been better if he had never been born than to go through what he was going through.

The response of Eliphaz was to accuse Job of having sinned:

Job 4:7-8

7 Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.


And Job asked Eliphaz to show him where he had sinned:

Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.


Job asked God:

Job 13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.


Again, we know the story behind the story because God revealed it to us.

But Job and his friends were all under the impression that God was behind Job's condition. They did not know that Job was suffering at the hand of satan ...

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

.

 

[tttallison]

No God did not declare Job upright "because Job was without knowledge and thought he was doing right" ... that is your human reasoning.

We are to align our thoughts to the truth of Scripture ... when we try to align God's Word to our own human reasoning, we end up in error in our understanding.

God declared Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". God said it three times (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7). Do you "accept what God says about Job"?





You are repeating the false claim of Eliphaz:

Job 22:1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,

Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.


Job cleared up the error of Eliphaz:

Job 29:12-13 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him. The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.


You are quick to believe all the negative claims made by Job's friends against Job ... and make negative claims about Job yourself ... but you do not believe God when He claims Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7). What's up with that, tttallison???





You have completely mangled the meaning of the text, tttallison.

Job lamented that the state he was in after satan's attack was such that he was mocked by young men whose fathers were base men: they were viler than the earth (vs 8).

These men that were viler than the earth were such that Job would not hire them to watch over the dogs of his flock (vs 1).

I suppose if you were in Job's shoes, you would hire men that were viler than the earth ... would you do that tttallison? ... or would you have the wisdom to spare your flocks and herds from men that were viler than the earth?





I have asked you several times and you have not answered ... what would you say if someone was lying about you? claiming you had sinned when you had not? That is what Job was going through even as he suffered with boils from head to toe.

What would you say to someone who was lying about you even as you were at your lowest point ... how would you respond, tttallison?





God knows better than anyone and God told Eliphaz My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7).





Job cursed the current situation he found himself in ... Job did not curse God.

Job even lamented the night he was conceived (Job 3:3). Job felt it would have been better if he had never been born than to go through what he was going through.

The response of Eliphaz was to accuse Job of having sinned:

Job 4:7-8

7 Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.


And Job asked Eliphaz to show him where he had sinned:

Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.


Job asked God:

Job 13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.


Again, we know the story behind the story because God revealed it to us.

But Job and his friends were all under the impression that God was behind Job's condition. They did not know that Job was suffering at the hand of satan ...

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

.

You said, "You are repeating the false claim of Eliphaz:"

Job 22:1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,
Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.

What evidence do you have that Elipaz's statement is untrue.

Do you know that Paul quoted Elipaz's words in Job 5:13 as being scripture. Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness:-----.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

This is the only line in the book of Job that is referenced as scripture in the New Testament. None of Job's words are quoted as scripture in the New Testament.

Ezekiel said, when a righteous man sins he is no longer righteous. This happened to Israel and it happened to David. Israel was the apple of God's eye, and then Israel sinned.

Israel's position changed from being the apple of God's eye, to God hiding his face from them.​

Deu 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation,
children in whom is no faith.

God hid his face from both David and Job as well as Israel.​

God hid his face from David. (Psalm 13:1) God hid his face from Job. (Job 23:9)

David's position changed from being upright to being in a fallen state.​

Psa 26:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide.

Psa 38:2-3 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore. There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.

We see a nearly identical situation with Job and David. Job was standing in his own integrity and David was standing in his. God sent his arrows into Job. (Job 6:4) God sent his arrows into David. Psalm 38:2 God sent his arrows into Israel. ( Deuteronomy 32:23)There was no soundness in the flesh of Job. (Job 7:5) There was no soundness in the flesh of David. (Psalm 38:3)

The difference between David and Job was that David confessed his sin, and Job didn't. Job said God was unjust, and persecuted him without cause.

God tested Job knowing that Job's heart had been lifted up. God is omniscient. You say what sin did job commit before the tests, but God sees both past and future. God knew Job's heart would fail him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You said, "You are repeating the false claim of Eliphaz:"

Job 22:1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,
Job 22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.

What evidence do you have that Elipaz's statement is untrue.

What evidence do you have that what Eliphaz said was true?

Have you ever read Deuteronomy 19:15?

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Job cleared up the error of Eliphaz:

Job 29:12-13 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him. The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.

None of them (Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu) corroborated each other's accusations against Job so none of their accusations were established ... and Job responded to Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar.

And then we can (and should) always believe what God tells us. God claimed Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7) ... do you believe God, tttallison?

Do you know that Paul quoted Elipaz's words in Job 5:13 as being scripture. Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness:-----.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

This is the only line in the book of Job that is referenced as scripture in the New Testament. None of Job's words are quoted as scripture in the New Testament.

you keep bringing this up as if this fact clears up any error on the part of Eliphaz.

You also know that Eliphaz and his friends were reproved by God ... ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath (Job 42:7) ... do you believe God, tttallison?

We see a nearly identical situation with Job and David. Job was standing in his own integrity and David was standing in his. God sent his arrows into Job. (Job 6:4)

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

These are the words of Job. However, we know from Job 2:7 that satan was the reason why Job was suffering ... not God.

Job did not know anything about satan ... nor did his friends and family. In Job 42 all of Job's friends and family came to comfort Job:

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

We know it was not God who afflicted Job. We know it was satan because God told us ... do you believe God, tttallison?

God sent his arrows into David. Psalm 38:2 God sent his arrows into Israel. ( Deuteronomy 32:23)There was no soundness in the flesh of Job. (Job 7:5) There was no soundness in the flesh of David. (Psalm 38:3)

The difference between David and Job was that David confessed his sin, and Job didn't.

Job asked God to tell him so he could repent:

Job 13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Job said God was unjust, and persecuted him without cause.

God tested Job knowing that Job's heart had been lifted up. God is omniscient. You say what sin did job commit before the tests, but God sees both past and future. God knew Job's heart would fail him.

Job did not know that he was under attack from satan. We know because God reveals that truth to us in the beginning chapters of Job.

and btw ... God was not testing Job.

satan tested God when God said Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:7) ... satan then told God that if God would remove His hedge from Job, then Job would curse God. However, God did not completely remove His hedge. God told satan "he [Job] is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6). If God would have completely removed His hedge, satan would have killed Job.

do you know that you have an accuser who accuses you before God day and night (Rev 12:10) ... but the born again believer has an Intercessor (Heb 7:25) and an Advocate (1 John 2:1) ... do you know these truths, tttallison?

again, I ask, tttallison ... when someone lies about you, accusing you of doing something you did not do (as Job's friends did to Job), how would you respond? Would you let the lie stand and be repeated without any clarification on your part?

Would you deny the lie (which would affirm truth)?
Would you confirm the lie (which would then be a lie on your part)?

.