Loss of salvation???

[mailmandan]

No. If is a condition particle. If Ye, you or I live after the flesh, ye, you or I will die. But if ye, you or I live after the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the Body ye, you and I shall live
He is speaking to everyone, everyone has a choice as to how they live and their choice through God's Spirit determines whether they live or die.

Couple that with the fact that the word therefore in verse 12 is a marker of an inference made on the basis of what precedes in verse 11. It is being said relation to the fact that He shall also quicken our mortal bodies if the Spirit dwells in us. Therefore, because of that we are debtors, under present obligation to live not according to the flesh. For if ye, you or I, live after the flesh ye, we, you or I will be about to die. But IF ye, you or I through the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the Body ye, you and I shall live.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

In Romans 8:13, IF is not a conditional, salvation maintenance program for believers but a confirmation of realm-diagnostic. Paul has already defined the 2 identities in verses. 8-11. Those in the flesh are unsaved, those in the Spirit have the Spirit dwelling in them.

The IF-clauses simply confirm which realm a person belongs to. They do not threaten Spirit-indwelt believers with spiritual death. You are reversing Paul's logic by making behavior determine identity, when Paul makes identity determine behavior.

The term "brethren" in scripture does not guarantee that every single person in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. The apostle Paul does not infallibly know the condition of each person's heart, hence the warning.

The Apostle Paul specifically warns of "false brethren" (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4-5), indicating individuals who pretended to be part of the community but were not. Jude warned of certain men who have crept in unnoticed/ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)

Judas Iscariot was a chosen disciple and part of the inner circle, but he is described as an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71)

In the book of Hebrews, the writer warns the brethren against having "an evil heart of unbelief" (Hebrews 3:12-13), coming short by lacking faith in the gospel (Hebrews 4:1-3), showing that even those addressed as part of the group could lack true saving faith. Again, hence the warning.

 

[Musicmaster]

And yet that's exactly what the OSAS folks teach is that one is still saved even if they live in sin.

They must reject the whole counsel of God in order to reach that conclusion

How do you define "living in sin?" What does that mean, especially given that we ALL sin daily, meaning that none of us can lay claim to being without sin?

Go study what so called "reformed theology" teaches for a while which is where the false doctrine of OSAS came from

I didn't get it from anything reformed. The Reformed Theology professors I've dealt with believe in one losing his salvation, not having it in spite of ALL our sinfulness.

Are YOU living in sinless perfection?

And there was have it folks - the false teaching that one can sin and still be in right standing with the Lord.

Are you saying, then, that one can become UNborn again? How does that happen? Where does scripture teach that? Where does scripture teach the breaking of our seal by Holy Spirit? All these claims of yours are so confusing.

Nobody is saying we can overcome sin without being saved by grace through faith which leads to action.

So, given that you admit you can't overcome sin, therefore you still sin, how do you know you're saved right now, or tomorrow, or yesterday? Where is that threshold? Where is that line over which one can allegedly step and lose his salvation? Can you define that for us?

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

If it were by faith alone and no action is required on our part... then Jesus would not have said “let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me” in Luke 9:23.

Yes, that was spoken to Israel...the nation of people to whom alone Jesus said that He came to preach. Where does Paul uphold that for us today in the body of Christ while also allegedly teaching the loss of salvation? I can't find that anywhere in his epistles. Jesus also said to that same nation that they would see his return in all His glory within their lifetimes...and that has not yet happened after all those people have long since died. Do you think that maybe He made some changes to His plans somewhere along the line? Please explain.

Only living faith saves, since faith without works is dead... faith alone is not saving faith because there's no good fruit being produced by that faith because it is dead as in the person is not acting like their faith is true and real. Folks that believe this are deceived according to James 1:22 which tells us to “doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.

Now it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. Faith without works is dead, with which I agree. However, then you say that the works part of genuine faith is necessary for salvation. That's works-based salvation if coupled with faith. Are you, therefore, a follower of works-based salvation as you appear to be saying in the above statement? How is it that works can ever supplement the shed Blood of Christ? Paul said we are saved by GRACE THROUGH faith. True faith does indeed produce an outflow of good works, but those works cannot and do not save us. It is God's GRACE that is poured out upon us on the basis of faith. Right?

God does not accept dead faith as that faith is no better than the devil’s faith! (James 2:19)

I prefer to not mix together elements that don't belong in the same narrative. We're not talking about simply believing God exists. We're talking about saving faith. When placing the cart before the horse by declaring works as a part of what saves us, that simply is a dichotomy. True faith bring about grace, and true faith produces good works. We don't have to WORK at doing good works...we who are TRULY saved. If you think your works are a part of what saves you, then you must also believe that water baptism remitted your sins. Is that too a part of your beliefs?

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Philippians 4:13 tells us "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me" so this agrees with John 15 that the Lord is the One bearing good fruit thru us IF we are co laborers with the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us (Romans 8:14) and IF we allow the Holy Spirit to live in us (Romans 8:9)

Matthew 7:18,19
A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Reckon Jesus didn't get the memo from the so called reformers that salvation is by faith only??? (see James 2:14-26)

None of this latter portion speaks to works leading to salvation itself. This is the problem you seem to have when throwing in works in relation to salvation.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

One you have to put your self in the story of the gospels. There is strict training and development before the Holy Spirit comes. When you read the pages it is easy to jump ahead of the process. The Holy Spirit can not and will not dwell where there is sin. There is a work that requires striving to enter into the rest of God. Many claim to be born again because of a mere prayer. Baby does not come out until it is formed. I do not understand where people think in an instant a baby just develops. Jesus said in John 3 that if we do not understand earthly things how can we understand heavenly things. Embryo to a baby takes time. Seed to a tree takes time. Leaven rising takes time working out. It is easy to jump to works based faith assumption. Let me ask you a question than. How does a seed become a tree? How then does an embryo become a baby? Just sit and confess? Do absolutely nothing?

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Notice here that it mentions and also states in other translations that the righteous barely saved…..means it requires something. There needs to be a cleansing on the inside cup. There needs to be a crushing of the seed. There need to be nutrients that grow our spirit and now our minds. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is of the spirit is Spirit. I once too believed the gospel of grace according to man’s traditions and thinking but now I follow the gospel of the kingdom which sets men free. Love you brother.

Can I ask you a question? Do you really want to know truth? Is it you believe you already know it and are closed minded? If you truly are seeking truth and not your truth then you will see. Not everyone who says lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Only those who the will of my father.

Ok, so this leads to the inevitable question...are YOU now living in sinless perfection?

If not, then how is it that you can be filled with Holy Spirit when you sin daily? Where is that line one can allegedly step over to lose his salvation, if that is your contention?

If you believe you are, then how did you achieve that and how do you gauge your sinlessness?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

That was before His resurrection. After His resurrection and He commissioned the disciples to go and teach ALL nations whatsoever He commanded them, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

They taught what Jesus taught them.

Yes they did, and they did so to Israel. Paul was/is the apostle to the Gentiles and the body of Christ. Have you not read where Peter and Paul were in agreement that Peter went to the circumcised as Paul went to the uncircumcised? That seems to be so very overlooked by so many.

So they taught baptism.

Yes, to Israel, along with circumcision and all the rest of the Mosaic Law to Israel.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That was indeed the plan...until Israel fell.

MM

 

[Aussie52]

In Romans 8:13, IF is not a conditional, salvation maintenance program for believers but a confirmation of realm-diagnostic. Paul has already defined the 2 identities in verses. 8-11. Those in the flesh are unsaved, those in the Spirit have the Spirit dwelling in them.

The IF-clauses simply confirm which realm a person belongs to. They do not threaten Spirit-indwelt believers with spiritual death. You are reversing Paul's logic by making behavior determine identity, when Paul makes identity determine behavior.

The term "brethren" in scripture does not guarantee that every single person in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. The apostle Paul does not infallibly know the condition of each person's heart, hence the warning.

The Apostle Paul specifically warns of "false brethren" (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4-5), indicating individuals who pretended to be part of the community but were not. Jude warned of certain men who have crept in unnoticed/ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)

Judas Iscariot was a chosen disciple and part of the inner circle, but he is described as an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71)

In the book of Hebrews, the writer warns the brethren against having "an evil heart of unbelief" (Hebrews 3:12-13), coming short by lacking faith in the gospel (Hebrews 4:1-3), showing that even those addressed as part of the group could lack true saving faith. Again, hence the warning.

I read your post and I have to lovingly say, Brother, you are misusing Scripture and twisting verses to argue your case.
To say that the word "If" is not conditional shows a lack of basic knowledge of grammar.
To state that the word 'brethren' does not necessarily mean believers ignores its use throughout the New Testament.
To further say that those addressed in the Book of Hebrews 'lack true saving faith' is not only absurd, but it also cannot be demonstrated from the text.
In short, you are forcing scripture to prove OSAS rather than testing the validity of OSAS by Scripture.

 

[Musicmaster]

I read your post and I have to lovingly say, Brother, you are misusing Scripture and twisting verses to argue your case.
To say that the word "If" is not conditional shows a lack of basic knowledge of grammar.
To state that the word 'brethren' does not necessarily mean believers ignores its use throughout the New Testament.
To further say that those addressed in the Book of Hebrews 'lack true saving faith' is not only absurd, but it also cannot be demonstrated from the text.
In short, you are forcing scripture to prove OSAS rather than testing the validity of OSAS by Scripture.

I'm not speaking for Mr. Dan, but I don't see that the context of Romans 8:13 said anything about salvation without someone injecting that into the text where it doesn't exist. I do understand that some practice eisegetical interpretation of key passages to try and make them fit their own personal beliefs, but that's an exercise in dishonesty among some when it really comes down to it.

MM

 

[Aussie52]

I'm not speaking for Mr. Dan, but I don't see that the context of Romans 8:13 said anything about salvation without someone injecting that into the text where it doesn't exist. I do understand that some practice eisegetical interpretation of key passages to try and make them fit their own personal beliefs, but that's an exercise in dishonesty among some when it really comes down to it.

MM

I would have thought the words of Paul were pretty plain and obvious.
"If you live according to the flesh, you will die.'. I (and so many commentators) believe it is talking about salvation, or to be more specific, the possible loss of it.
If a Christian persists in living 'in the flesh', they according to Paul in Gal 5:19-21,'will not inherit the kingdom of God'.

 

[Aussie52]

I was just thinking on this subject. Do people who tenuously hold to the doctrine of eternal security do so, because deep down in their hearts they are 'insecure'? Is this the reason they come out fighting when one questions this doctrine, they are acting out of inner uncertainty that God really loves them? Hence, the aggressive, militant propagation of 'once saved always saved', when all the while there are inward fears about their own acceptance with God and whether they will persevere as Christians
I am talking about an overcompensation flowing out of an inner fear and inadequacy.

Just thinking. Any thoughts?

 

[Mem]

I was just thinking on this subject. Do people who tenuously hold to the doctrine of eternal security do so, because deep down in their hearts they are 'insecure'? Is this the reason they come out fighting when one questions this doctrine, they are acting out of inner uncertainty that God really loves them? Hence, the aggressive, militant propagation of 'once saved always saved', when all the while there are inward fears about their own acceptance with God and whether they will persevere as Christians
I am talking about an overcompensation flowing out of an inner fear and inadequacy.

Just thinking. Any thoughts?

Walking as Jesus walked is walking in the spirit, and doing so leaves out any sense 'inner fear and inadequacy' since that only flows out from walking in the flesh. The only 'overcompensation' comes from trying to "add to" the work of the spirit by way of works of the flesh, i.e., making sure that you "touch not, taste not, handle not," submitting to the regulations of the world as though you still belong to it (Col 2:21-22). There is no feeling of fear nor inadequacy walking in perfect love, which casts out all fear, and God's grace is sufficient for you, for God's power is made perfect in weakness (2Cor 12:9). Jesus was tempted in every way as we are yet did not sin. We, on the other hand, are not as sinless, though God does provide a way of escape from temptation. Jesus took every way of escape, but there is no other that has batted 100 before Him nor since.

It's easy to get it backwards to think we must first love God, but 1Jn 4:18 says the one who fears has not been perfected in love, and 1Jn 4:19 says, "We love because He first loved us." This love is what 'we' are secure in, and others that 'perform' (the archaic definition for 'hypocrite' or 'actor') are not.

 

[Aussie52]

Walking as Jesus walked is walking in the spirit, and doing so leaves out any sense 'inner fear and inadequacy' since that only flows out from walking in the flesh. The only 'overcompensation' comes from trying to "add to" the work of the spirit by way of works of the flesh, i.e., making sure that you "touch not, taste not, handle not," submitting to the regulations of the world as though you still belong to it (Col 2:21-22). There is no feeling of fear nor inadequacy walking in perfect love, which casts out all fear, and God's grace is sufficient for you, for God's power is made perfect in weakness (2Cor 12:9). Jesus was tempted in every way as we are yet did not sin. We, on the other hand, are not as sinless, though God does provide a way of escape from temptation. Jesus took every way of escape, but there is no other that has batted 100 before Him nor since.

It's easy to get it backwards to think we must first love God, but 1Jn 4:18 says the one who fears has not been perfected in love, and 1Jn 4:19 says, "We love because He first loved us." This love is what 'we' are secure in, and others that 'perform' (the archaic definition for 'hypocrite' or 'actor') are not.

You don't obviously get around much. The reality is that our churches are filled with good christians who suffer from 'insecurities'.

 

[Mem]

You don't obviously get around much. The reality is that our churches are filled with good christians who suffer from 'insecurities'.

Lol. I wish I were as sheltered. I'm fully aware of all the (unnecessary) suffering.
That insecurity is proliferated by those they've followed as 'shepherds' which demand that they follow the rules and regulations of the world to perfection.
Again, 1Jn 4:18. Perfection is found, only, in love.

 

[Mem]

Walk in the Spirit (of Love).

 

[FlyingDove]

I read your post and I have to lovingly say, Brother, you are misusing Scripture and twisting verses to argue your case.
To say that the word "If" is not conditional shows a lack of basic knowledge of grammar.
To state that the word 'brethren' does not necessarily mean believers ignores its use throughout the New Testament.
To further say that those addressed in the Book of Hebrews 'lack true saving faith' is not only absurd, but it also cannot be demonstrated from the text.
In short, you are forcing scripture to prove OSAS rather than testing the validity of OSAS by Scripture.

I believe Dan's analysis is spot.
IF in Rom 8:13 - I don't believe anyone has denied that IF introduces a condition. The question is what kind of condition Paul is using in context. Rom 8 has already divided humanity into 2 realms / identities (Vs 8–11):

In the flesh = cannot please God & does not belong to Him.

In the Spirit = the Holy Spirit of God dwells in you & you are in-Christ / in union with Christ.

So when Paul says, IF you are living according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Holy Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. He is not teaching a works‑maintenance program for already Holy Spirit‑indwelt believers. He is describing what characterizes each realm:

Flesh‑realm life = ongoing flesh‑walk = death.

Spirit‑realm life = Spirit‑empowered mortification = life. Behavior is the evidence of identity, not the cause of identity. That's Paul's own order throughout Romans 6-8.

On ""brethren"" & mixed congregations - Saying ""brethren"" does not automatically guarantee that every single person in earshot is regenerate is not ""ignoring"" NT usage, it's paying attention to it. Paul explicitly warns about ""false brethren"" (2 Cor 11:26 & Gal 2:4). That means there can be people counted among the ""brothers"" socially / ecclesially who are not truly in-Christ.

Jude 1:4 speaks of certain men who crept in unnoticed, turning grace into licentiousness. They were inside the community, addressed in the same circle, but never Holy Spirit-indwelt / truly saved.

So it is entirely biblical to recognize that an apostle can address a body as ""brethren"" while also warning that some among them may prove false. That's not twisting Scripture, that's letting all the relevant passages speak.

On Heb & ""evil heart of unbelief"" - Heb itself makes the point Dan's making: Heb 3:12-13 warns the ""brethren"" lest there be in any of you an evil heart of """unbelief"" in the living God. Heb 4:1-3 warns about coming short through lack of faith in the gospel, explicitly using Israel in the wilderness as an example of a people who heard but DID NOT believe.

On OSAS & testing it by Scripture - I fail to see that as Dan's aim was to force Scripture to prove OSAS, but to let the flow of Paul's argument stand:

Identity in Christ (union with Him, indwelt by the Holy Spirit) is the root & Holy Spirit‑produced behavior is the fruit.

Warnings function as realm diagnostics-they expose whether someone is in the flesh or in the Spirit & not as a call for the truly regenerate to keep themselves saved by performance.

If you believe Rom 8:13 teaches that a genuinely Holy Spirit‑indwelt believer can lose spiritual life by insufficient mortification, then the burden is to show that from the immediate context of Romans 8:1-17, where Paul has just grounded everything Vs 8:1, in ""no condemnation"" & the Holy Spirit's indwelling, not in human maintenance.

I'm very willing to be corrected by Scripture, but that correction has to come from careful exegesis of the passages in question, not from assuming a meaning of ""brethren"" or ""if"" that ignores the broader canonical data & the local argument.

 

[Qt]

Yes they did, and they did so to Israel. Paul was/is the apostle to the Gentiles and the body of Christ. Have you not read where Peter and Paul were in agreement that Peter went to the circumcised as Paul went to the uncircumcised? That seems to be so very overlooked by so many.



Yes, to Israel, along with circumcision and all the rest of the Mosaic Law to Israel.



That was indeed the plan...until Israel fell.

MM

They were sent to ALL NATIONS not just Israel. To preach the Gospel in ALL THE WORLD then the end will come.

One Gospel not two. There is neither jew or gentile, male or female, we are all one in Christ

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[mailmandan]

I believe Dan's analysis is spot.
IF in Rom 8:13 - I don't believe anyone has denied that IF introduces a condition. The question is what kind of condition Paul is using in context. Rom 8 has already divided humanity into 2 realms / identities (Vs 8–11):

In the flesh = cannot please God & does not belong to Him.

In the Spirit = the Holy Spirit of God dwells in you & you are in-Christ / in union with Christ.

So when Paul says, IF you are living according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Holy Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. He is not teaching a works‑maintenance program for already Holy Spirit‑indwelt believers. He is describing what characterizes each realm:

Flesh‑realm life = ongoing flesh‑walk = death.

Spirit‑realm life = Spirit‑empowered mortification = life. Behavior is the evidence of identity, not the cause of identity. That's Paul's own order throughout Romans 6-8.

On ""brethren"" & mixed congregations - Saying ""brethren"" does not automatically guarantee that every single person in earshot is regenerate is not ""ignoring"" NT usage, it's paying attention to it. Paul explicitly warns about ""false brethren"" (2 Cor 11:26 & Gal 2:4). That means there can be people counted among the ""brothers"" socially / ecclesially who are not truly in-Christ.

Jude 1:4 speaks of certain men who crept in unnoticed, turning grace into licentiousness. They were inside the community, addressed in the same circle, but never Holy Spirit-indwelt / truly saved.

So it is entirely biblical to recognize that an apostle can address a body as ""brethren"" while also warning that some among them may prove false. That's not twisting Scripture, that's letting all the relevant passages speak.

On Heb & ""evil heart of unbelief"" - Heb itself makes the point Dan's making: Heb 3:12-13 warns the ""brethren"" lest there be in any of you an evil heart of """unbelief"" in the living God. Heb 4:1-3 warns about coming short through lack of faith in the gospel, explicitly using Israel in the wilderness as an example of a people who heard but DID NOT believe.

On OSAS & testing it by Scripture - I fail to see that as Dan's aim was to force Scripture to prove OSAS, but to let the flow of Paul's argument stand:

Identity in Christ (union with Him, indwelt by the Holy Spirit) is the root & Holy Spirit‑produced behavior is the fruit.

Warnings function as realm diagnostics-they expose whether someone is in the flesh or in the Spirit & not as a call for the truly regenerate to keep themselves saved by performance.

If you believe Rom 8:13 teaches that a genuinely Holy Spirit‑indwelt believer can lose spiritual life by insufficient mortification, then the burden is to show that from the immediate context of Romans 8:1-17, where Paul has just grounded everything Vs 8:1, in ""no condemnation"" & the Holy Spirit's indwelling, not in human maintenance.

I'm very willing to be corrected by Scripture, but that correction has to come from careful exegesis of the passages in question, not from assuming a meaning of ""brethren"" or ""if"" that ignores the broader canonical data & the local argument.

Amen and well said brother!

 

[Jmzion]

Ok, so this leads to the inevitable question...are YOU now living in sinless perfection?

If not, then how is it that you can be filled with Holy Spirit when you sin daily? Where is that line one can allegedly step over to lose his salvation, if that is your contention?

If you believe you are, then how did you achieve that and how do you gauge your sinlessness?

MM

Music master my friend first and foremost i am not the example, Jesus is. I can tell you the pathway and explain it in detail. First when reading the Bible you need to understand context and how long the disciples were with Jesus. The process and formation and training. There were times when Jesus disciples could not cast out demons and Jesus rebuked them saying you wicked and perverse generation. Jesus is expecting us to do the same as He expected His disciples.

First you have understand the temple of God. Many people have gotten lost into getting and decorating a church building when Jesus said I will raise up my body. He does not dwell in temple buildings but looking for someone to prepare themselves for Him.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Exodus 23:14-17

Pay attention to wording here. Whole spirit. Whole soul, and whole body. Total salvation and total redeeming. This next part is putting pieces together so you see the whole picture. We are abiding in Jesus than we ought to walk just like Him. Following His example in a lot of things.

Here we see God needs a house, God is looking for His people to dwell in, than looking for a chosen race. He is also looking for a clean house to come inside to.

You see the fulfillment of the saving of the total human in three feasts.
1= Spirit; Feast of leaven bread(Holy of Holies)
2= Soul; Feast of Pentecost(inner court)
2= Body; Feast of tabernacles(outer court)

Each process and each baptism saves a part of human. So that the whole Man can be saved. Does this make sense?

 

[Qt]

In Romans 8:13, IF is not a conditional, salvation maintenance program for believers but a confirmation of realm-diagnostic. Paul has already defined the 2 identities in verses. 8-11. Those in the flesh are unsaved, those in the Spirit have the Spirit dwelling in them.

The IF-clauses simply confirm which realm a person belongs to. They do not threaten Spirit-indwelt believers with spiritual death. You are reversing Paul's logic by making behavior determine identity, when Paul makes identity determine behavior.

The term "brethren" in scripture does not guarantee that every single person in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. The apostle Paul does not infallibly know the condition of each person's heart, hence the warning.

No. Maybe you are not reading what you are responding to. If is a condition particle. There is no way around that grammatically speaking. So If Ye, you or I live after the flesh, ye, you or I will die. But if ye, you or I live after the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the Body ye, you and I shall live
He is speaking to everyone, everyone has a choice as to how they live and their choice through God's Spirit determines whether they live or die.

HERE is what solidifies the context. The word therefore in verse 12 is a marker of an inference made on the basis of what precedes in verse 11. It is being said relation to the fact that He shall also quicken our mortal bodies if the Spirit dwells in us. Therefore, because of that we are debtors, under present obligation to live not according to the flesh.

Then verse 13 starts with the word for. Which is a primary particle which assigns a reason to what was previously stated. Therefore We are debtors to not live after the flesh. For, BECAUSE if ye, you or I, live after the flesh ye, we, you or I will be about to die. But IF ye, you or I through the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the Body ye, you and I shall live.

The Apostle Paul specifically warns of "false brethren" (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4-5), indicating individuals who pretended to be part of the community but were not. Jude warned of certain men who have crept in unnoticed/ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)

Judas Iscariot was a chosen disciple and part of the inner circle, but he is described as an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71)

In the book of Hebrews, the writer warns the brethren against having "an evil heart of unbelief" (Hebrews 3:12-13), coming short by lacking faith in the gospel (Hebrews 4:1-3), showing that even those addressed as part of the group could lack true saving faith. Again, hence the warning.

I know Rom 8:30 is another issue for you. Here is excerpt from one of my resources in respect to the indicative aorist tense. I will post the resource later if anyone wishes.

Tense - The so-called airiest or indefinite form is really not a tense at all, combining the marks of both past and future in its composition, unless it may be called a past-future. It corresponds with the indefinite present, I-WRITE. It is used of all three tenses in Ro.8:30: He designates beforehand (past), He calls and justifies (present), He glorifies (future).

Mood - The infinitive is rendered TO- as, TO-WRITE. The indicative is I-AM-WRITING. The subjunctive uses I-MAY-BE-WRITING. The optative is MAY-I-WRITE. The imperative is WRITE and LET-him-WRITE. The participle ends in -ING, WRITING.

 

[mailmandan]

No. Maybe you are not reading what you are responding to. If is a condition particle. There is no way around that grammatically speaking. So If Ye, you or I live after the flesh, ye, you or I will die. But if ye, you or I live after the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the Body ye, you and I shall live
He is speaking to everyone, everyone has a choice as to how they live and their choice through God's Spirit determines whether they live or die.

HERE is what solidifies the context. The word therefore in verse 12 is a marker of an inference made on the basis of what precedes in verse 11. It is being said relation to the fact that He shall also quicken our mortal bodies if the Spirit dwells in us. Therefore, because of that we are debtors, under present obligation to live not according to the flesh.

Then verse 13 starts with the word for. Which is a primary particle which assigns a reason to what was previously stated. Therefore We are debtors to not live after the flesh. For, BECAUSE if ye, you or I, live after the flesh ye, we, you or I will be about to die. But IF ye, you or I through the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the Body ye, you and I shall live.


I know Rom 8:30 is another issue for you. Here is excerpt from one of my resources in respect to the indicative aorist tense. I will post the resource later if anyone wishes.

Tense - The so-called airiest or indefinite form is really not a tense at all, combining the marks of both past and future in its composition, unless it may be called a past-future. It corresponds with the indefinite present, I-WRITE. It is used of all three tenses in Ro.8:30: He designates beforehand (past), He calls and justifies (present), He glorifies (future).

Mood - The infinitive is rendered TO- as, TO-WRITE. The indicative is I-AM-WRITING. The subjunctive uses I-MAY-BE-WRITING. The optative is MAY-I-WRITE. The imperative is WRITE and LET-him-WRITE. The participle ends in -ING, WRITING.

I already thoroughly covered Romans 8:8-14 with you but you seem determined to make those passages of scripture out to be much more complicated than they really are and also, your beliefs appear to be fixed so I really see no point in running that discussion into the ground.

Now in regard to Romans 8:30 - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[markss]

I already thoroughly covered Romans 8:8-14 with you but you seem determined to make those passages of scripture out to be much more complicated than they really are and also, your beliefs appear to be fixed so I really see no point in running that discussion into the ground.

Now in regard to Romans 8:30 - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Have you considered that Paul perhaps was not using a future expectant past tense, but that as all the rest had been done, that this also had been done?

Glorified in having become a new celestial being, born of God?

Just a thought . . .

Much love!

 

[Musicmaster]

I would have thought the words of Paul were pretty plain and obvious.
"If you live according to the flesh, you will die.'. I (and so many commentators) believe it is talking about salvation, or to be more specific, the possible loss of it.
If a Christian persists in living 'in the flesh', they according to Paul in Gal 5:19-21,'will not inherit the kingdom of God'.

That is indeed what the band wagon gangs assume with such vehemence that their exasperation, used as a weapon against those of us who dare read scripture what what it DOES say AND what it DOES NOT say, I'm not ashamed of not following after them and their insertions of meaning that's nowhere upheld in that context and many others where they inject salvation.

Sin has huge impacts upon all, and walking in sin does lead to death, but that text does NOT address spiritual death, eternal death. What seems obvious to so many because it happens to originate from the group-think they have heard all their lives, the practice of eisegesis becomes so commonplace a blunder that not one critical thought is ever applied to their held beliefs until they are challenged to READ scripture for what it says and what it does NOT say that they are habitually injecting into it.

That same Paul also said:

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

What is that denial of self? It's simply this:

2 Corinthians 1:20-22
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The Lord, therefore, is not going to withdraw salvation from any true believer because we are SEALED, even if any one of us slips into unbelief, because doing so would be a matter of God forfeiting His own Spirit, and believing that He does so is heresy of the worst sort. The earnest clearly points to a forfeiture of what was given in earnest. God is the One who inspired those words and those terms written in the text, and rejection of that is a rejection of the One who inspired it.

Does that make better sense?

MM