Was Mary Sinless?

[dkontner]

John 8
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John 8
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

any passages to advance your position sin from Father only?

Seed agreed comes from the father – Adam’s seed was from who? And what about Melchizedek?

Melchizedek’s seed came from his father. Adam wasn’t born. He was created with the seed in him and once he sinned that seed was corrupted. He then passed it to all humanity except Jesus.

 

[bytheblood]

1) Ex. 33, no one can see God face to face and live, yet God spoke to Moses face to face through a pillar of cloud, the only logical conclusion is that the pillar of cloud functioned as a communication device; 2) You asked a loaded question. You and I don't "have" souls, you and I ARE souls. 3) Holy Spirit the Restrainer

1)" And the Lord spake unto Moses FACE TO FACE, as a man speaketh unto his friend." Ex. 33:11 When I speak to my friend, if there is ANYTHING between us and I can't see him, we are not speaking face to face. There is no " communication device ", it was " face to face." I even looked it up in the Tree Of Life Version of scripture, (written by Messianic Jewish people) and, surprise, it says the same thing. I also looked face up in the Strong's Concordance from that scripture and nowhere did I find anything close to " communication device " I started to ask you who should I believe, you or the Bible but I believe I already know the answer, it's you and your logical self. But I'd rather believe in He who CREATED logic, rather then one who THINKS he's operating in it. 2) When God breathed( 5301 Heb. naw-fakh) the breath(5397 Heb.) of life into Adam he then became a living soul, true enough, but what was he before that? God had already formed him of the dust of the earth. 5397 nesh-aw maw: a puff ,wind...vital breath; divine inspiration, intellect......., soul, spirit. So God breathed into Adam his soul (mind, will and emotions) and spirit. The reason Adam became a "living soul" was a result of his spirit. Before that he wasn't a LIVING soul. The body without the SPIRIT, not soul, is dead. The spirit is the life force of the soul and the body and that's why I am a spirit (life force), I possess a soul (mind, will emotions, and intellect) and I live in a body (earth suit). 3) Very good )

 

[bytheblood]

I cherry pick nothing, any vision of the long expected messiah is a Christophany, the ones I listed are just a few prominent examples. As for Melchizedek, maybe another Theophany.

I genuinely don't understand your relentless obsession with your so called "pre-incarnate Christ" notion. As I said, my only purpose is to distinguish God the Father from God the Son, they are distinct beings. The Son was supposed to be hidden, as Moses was hidden behind the veil, until His appointed time to incarnate.

The Word BECAME the Son when He humbled Himself, was born of a woman and made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death. The Word in Spirit form? , equal with God, the Father. " God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that He hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art My Son, THIS DAY have I begotten Thee." Acts 13:33. He wasn't the Son until He was begotten, except only in the prophetic. So it is entirely possible (probable to me) for the God the Word, before being born of a woman, as the angels weren't, to appear as a man in the old covenant. If you don't understand "your (my) relentless obsession " with the pre-incarnate Christ, can you tell me who was slain from the foundation of the world? Hint Rev. 13:8. To YOU, that can't be possible, because He wasn't born yet.

 

[Lovette]

1)" And the Lord spake unto Moses FACE TO FACE, as a man speaketh unto his friend." Ex. 33:11 When I speak to my friend, if there is ANYTHING between us and I can't see him, we are not speaking face to face. There is no " communication device ", it was " face to face." I even looked it up in the Tree Of Life Version of scripture, (written by Messianic Jewish people) and, surprise, it says the same thing. I also looked face up in the Strong's Concordance from that scripture and nowhere did I find anything close to " communication device " I started to ask you who should I believe, you or the Bible but I believe I already know the answer, it's you and your logical self. But I'd rather believe in He who CREATED logic, rather then one who THINKS he's operating in it.

I'd rather believe in He who created logic which is applied to these words:
“You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” (Ex. 33:22)
‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ (Deut. 18:16)

. 2) When God breathed( 5301 Heb. naw-fakh) the breath(5397 Heb.) of life into Adam he then became a living soul, true enough, but what was he before that? God had already formed him of the dust of the earth. 5397 nesh-aw maw: a puff ,wind...vital breath; divine inspiration, intellect......., soul, spirit. So God breathed into Adam his soul (mind, will and emotions) and spirit. The reason Adam became a "living soul" was a result of his spirit. Before that he wasn't a LIVING soul. The body without the SPIRIT, not soul, is dead. The spirit is the life force of the soul and the body and that's why I am a spirit (life force), I possess a soul (mind, will emotions, and intellect) and I live in a body (earth suit).

That's gnosticism, that humans are "eternal, immortal souls trapped in temporary, mortal bodies." That's not biblical. You're not a spirit in possession of a soul, you're a soul in possession of a spirit. Hasn't Paul taught that the body is a temple for the spirit burning within? Not a soul trapped or carried within?

3) Very good )

That's the conventional interpretation, but I have some doubts on that. I think the restrainer is more likely to be civil governments in general, which is a restrainer of evil, per Rom. 13. In the end, governmental powers will be dismantled by the Beast to reign over the entire globe through dystopian technologies and international organizations.

 

[Lovette]

The Word BECAME the Son when He humbled Himself, was born of a woman and made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death. The Word in Spirit form? , equal with God, the Father. " God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that He hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art My Son, THIS DAY have I begotten Thee." Acts 13:33. He wasn't the Son until He was begotten, except only in the prophetic. So it is entirely possible (probable to me) for the God the Word, before being born of a woman, as the angels weren't, to appear as a man in the old covenant. If you don't understand "your (my) relentless obsession " with the pre-incarnate Christ, can you tell me who was slain from the foundation of the world? Hint Rev. 13:8. To YOU, that can't be possible, because He wasn't born yet.

"Slain from the foundation of the world" simply indicates that Jesus and his atonement for sin are not an afterthought, a reaction or a fix, that had always been the plan in God's blueprint, even before He had a physical form to be slain, and even before the very first model of that physical form was created. I explained before that God was beyond time, it is you who can't understand that with a dismissive attitude.

 

[Needevidence]

Melchizedek’s seed came from his father. Adam wasn’t born. He was created with the seed in him and once he sinned that seed was corrupted. He then passed it to all humanity except Jesus.

Sorry what you say opens more questions and apologies if I am not understanding.

Eve had sin, also Jesus was meant to be the seed of Abraham / David.

Melchizedek’s - Hebrews 7:3 notes he is "without father or mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life,"

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Sorry what you say opens more questions and apologies if I am not understanding.

Eve had sin, also Jesus was meant to be the seed of Abraham / David.

Eve had sin but scripture places legal responsibility of sin on Adam. This is why Jesus had to be the seed of a woman to bypass the inheritance of the sin nature while still being fully human. Still from the line of David but without sin nature.

Melchizedek’s - Hebrews 7:3 notes he is "without father or mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life,"

Hebrews 7 isn’t literally saying that he had no parents. It’s showing that there was no record of genealogy to show his priesthood wasn’t based on an earthly father.

 

[Genez]

The Word BECAME the Son when He humbled Himself, was born of a woman and made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death. The Word in Spirit form? , equal with God, the Father. " God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that He hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art My Son, THIS DAY have I begotten Thee." Acts 13:33. He wasn't the Son until He was begotten, except only in the prophetic. So it is entirely possible (probable to me) for the God the Word, before being born of a woman, as the angels weren't, to appear as a man in the old covenant. If you don't understand "your (my) relentless obsession " with the pre-incarnate Christ, can you tell me who was slain from the foundation of the world? Hint Rev. 13:8. To YOU, that can't be possible, because He wasn't born yet.

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, ​

and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

The Son is always having two natures.
The Son is God (deity) and Humanity (soul) in union.
The Incarnation was making the Soul of God the Son visible and tangible to mankind via the human body.

His Soul being fully in Union with God has always been there!
It is through the Son's soul that God communicates to souls in a manner that souls will be able to relate to about God.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest ​

relationship with the Father, has made him known. [He has revealed Him and brought Him ​

out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]. (John 1:18)​

Here we go!

Who was the Lord God of Israel?
Always having a SOUL and, Deity... in union!
Thus, making Him different from the Father who is solely Deity!

The following is prophesying in the OT the place of the Lord for His reign in the Millennium.
He was always revealing God to the Jews by means of His Soul being empowered fully by God!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. ​

Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.' ​

I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

Here was the modus operandi of the Son dealing with the Jews with His Soul being the conduit for the communication of God to men!

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

​

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, ​

the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred ​

meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble ​

to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14​

Keep in mind...

God is spirit.
Not soul!

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)​

The two natures in union is the unique Son of God, even prior to the Incarnation!

grace and peace ..........


.

 

[bytheblood]

I'd rather believe in He who created logic which is applied to these words:
“You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” (Ex. 33:22)
‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ (Deut. 18:16)

That's gnosticism, that humans are "eternal, immortal souls trapped in temporary, mortal bodies." That's not biblical. You're not a spirit in possession of a soul, you're a soul in possession of a spirit. Hasn't Paul taught that the body is a temple for the spirit burning within? Not a soul trapped or carried within?

That's the conventional interpretation, but I have some doubts on that. I think the restrainer is more likely to be civil governments in general, which is a restrainer of evil, per Rom. 13. In the end, governmental powers will be dismantled by the Beast to reign over the entire globe through dystopian technologies and international organizations.

Again, there are THREE who have the TITLE OF God, biblically, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. Need I give you the scriptures? Yes, the Father is quoted in Ex. 33:22 and yes, no man has seen the Father, I agree with scripture. I also agree with scripture that Moses met with the Lord God face to face and that the Lord God visited Abram at his tent and that Jacob wrestled with the Lord God. The only "logical" conclusion is that One of the other two( I'm convinced the Word), who have the "title" of God, met with Moses, visited with Abram and wrestled with Jacob, for all three referred to Him as Lord. You have tried to apply, falsely, many titles to me, but I will tell you just who I am, I am a Bible believing, Spirit filled and lead, blood washed and redeemed son of the living God. P.S. I will gladly give you the scriptures from above, but I think you already know them.

 

[bytheblood]

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, ​

and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

The Son is always having two natures.
The Son is God (deity) and Humanity (soul) in union.
The Incarnation was making the Soul of God the Son visible and tangible to mankind via the human body.

His Soul being fully in Union with God has always been there!
It is through the Son's soul that God communicates to souls in a manner that souls will be able to relate to about God.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest ​

relationship with the Father, has made him known. [He has revealed Him and brought Him ​

out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]. (John 1:18)​

Here we go!

Who was the Lord God of Israel?
Always having a SOUL and, Deity... in union!
Thus, making Him different from the Father who is solely Deity!

The following is prophesying in the OT the place of the Lord for His reign in the Millennium.
He was always revealing God to the Jews by means of His Soul being empowered fully by God!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. ​

Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.' ​

I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

Here was the modus operandi of the Son dealing with the Jews with His Soul being the conduit for the communication of God to men!

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

​

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, ​

the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred ​

meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble ​

to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14​

Keep in mind...

God is spirit.
Not soul!

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)​

The two natures in union is the unique Son of God, even prior to the Incarnation!

grace and peace ..........


.

There is no argument about God being Spirit, the Bible states it. But He also has a soul. If we are to worship Him in Spirit and Truth we are to communicate in Spirit and Truth also, not by the soul but through the soul from our spirits.

 

[bytheblood]

Eve had sin but scripture places legal responsibility of sin on Adam. This is why Jesus had to be the seed of a woman to bypass the inheritance of the sin nature while still being fully human. Still from the line of David but without sin nature.

Hebrews 7 isn’t literally saying that he had no parents. It’s showing that there was no record of genealogy to show his priesthood wasn’t based on an earthly father.

But the scriptures says that Melchizedek " was without mother or father " and it seems you don't believe that. There is no record of genealogy because there IS no genealogy, He had no beginning nor ending of days, He wasn't born and didn't die, the King of Salem (Peace) and High Priest, hmmmm sounds a lot like the pre-incarnate Christ to me.

 

[Genez]

There is no argument about God being Spirit, the Bible states it. But He also has a soul. If we are to worship Him in Spirit and Truth we are to communicate in Spirit and Truth also, not by the soul but through the soul from our spirits.

You are missing the important point I was making.

For Jesus to be fully man?
He needs to have a soul to be a man.

That soul of Jehovah?"
I showed you in the OT?
Is the very soul that entered the body born of Mary.

 

[bytheblood]

"Slain from the foundation of the world" simply indicates that Jesus and his atonement for sin are not an afterthought, a reaction or a fix, that had always been the plan in God's blueprint, even before He had a physical form to be slain, and even before the very first model of that physical form was created. I explained before that God was beyond time, it is you who can't understand that with a dismissive attitude.

I understand well that God, the Father, doesn't reside in time, but that God the Son, did dwell in it for 33 yrs and that The Father isn't a reactionary, He's omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning. I will push back a little in that God did fix, even beforehand, the sin problem.

 

[bytheblood]

You are missing the important point I was making.

For Jesus to be fully man?
He needs to have a soul to be a man.

That soul of Jehovah?"
I showed you in the OT?
Is the very soul that entered the body born of Mary.

Everyone born of a woman has a soul but without the spirit it is not a living soul. Speaking of Jesus "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. And the Child grew, and WAXED STRONG IN SPIRIT, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon Him." Lk 2:39-40 Jesus waxed strong in spirit, not soul, spirit is the part of us that connects us to God, the life force of our existence. Without our spirits our bodies die, our spirits return to God, the body returns to dust, then what happens to the soul? " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 Our eternal destination is determined by the decisions we make OUT of our souls influenced (or not) by our spirits, again, the only part of us that connect us with God, who IS Spirit.

 

[frederickdoc]

I can hear Mary say ,I too need a Savior hope that ends there knowing

 

[Lovette]

Again, there are THREE who have the TITLE OF God, biblically, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. Need I give you the scriptures? Yes, the Father is quoted in Ex. 33:22 and yes, no man has seen the Father, I agree with scripture. I also agree with scripture that Moses met with the Lord God face to face and that the Lord God visited Abram at his tent and that Jacob wrestled with the Lord God. The only "logical" conclusion is that One of the other two( I'm convinced the Word), who have the "title" of God, met with Moses, visited with Abram and wrestled with Jacob, for all three referred to Him as Lord. You have tried to apply, falsely, many titles to me, but I will tell you just who I am, I am a Bible believing, Spirit filled and lead, blood washed and redeemed son of the living God. P.S. I will gladly give you the scriptures from above, but I think you already know them.

I'm convinced you're wrong, the pillar of the cloud was a theophany, through which God communicated with Moses. There's a difference between interpretation and fulfillment, the NT fulfills the OT, the OT interprets the NT, not the otherway around.

 

[Needevidence]

Eve had sin but scripture places legal responsibility of sin on Adam. This is why Jesus had to be the seed of a woman to bypass the inheritance of the sin nature while still being fully human. Still from the line of David but without sin nature.

Hebrews 7 isn’t literally saying that he had no parents. It’s showing that there was no record of genealogy to show his priesthood wasn’t based on an earthly father.

Hebrew 7 doesnt say 'there was no record of genealogy'

Its very clear:
3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

 

[Genez]

Everyone born of a woman has a soul but without the spirit it is not a living soul. Speaking of Jesus "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. And the Child grew, and WAXED STRONG IN SPIRIT,

YES!!!!!!

Jesus did not need to be born again!
He was born WITH a human spirit.
Just as Adam was created spiritually alive!

Jesus was the second Adam.
He was born as Adam had been created!


......

 

[Genez]

Everyone born of a woman has a soul but without the spirit it is not a living soul. Speaking of Jesus "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. And the Child grew, and WAXED STRONG IN SPIRIT, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon Him."

We grow strong in spirit by our daily intake of sound biblical teachings.
Erroneous teachings = junk food.

By age twelve Jesus was already powerful in his human spirit!

​

Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began ​

looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, ​

they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in ​

the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them ​

questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers." ​

​

Luke 2:44-47​

Jesus as a boy grew strong in his human spirit!

Keep in mind:
When Adam ate he did not drop dead physically,
though he was told he would die in the day he ate.

Adam died 'spiritually.'

.....