Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

[GWH]

I do not know what the 24 elders are other than maybe something to do with the 24 courses of priests under the law. The body of Christ is definitely composed of OT and NT believers.

So, without knowing, would you not agree that viewing the 24 elders (Rev. 4:4, 11:16 & 19:4) as representing the 12 tribes of Israel
in Rev. 7:4-8 & 14:1 plus the 12 apostles of Christ cited in Rev. 21:14 is a good guess indicating that the bride of Christ cited
in Rev. 19:7 includes both OT & NT believers?

 

[tttallison]

Thanks for offering your opinion in the spirit as peer.

The wheat is gathered into the barn and tares are bundled up for the furnace, and while both suggest a designated gathering, I've yet to form a definite interpretation of the exact location of each group's respective 'storage.'

Your view implies a supposition of the traditional understanding of the rapture sans the remnant which are left behind, but I expected to follow the reading of your comment, "the only ones left on the earth are the dead in the ground," to say, "the only ones left on the earth are the resurrected (and those that have put on immortality)."

If so, that scenario would then answer your question, "If the remnant is killed who is left?" as "Those that have put on immortality," as the only ones killed are those that remain mortal at His coming, having not been clothed with the incorruptible. After all, this is exactly how the AOD is destroyed, with the brightness of His coming, which would reflect the veracity that no one can see God and live (as, indeed, those that have 'seen' the Son have so seen the Father, and have died, save in Christ).

But this, too, is just my opinion.

We will never attain to the whole picture until we meet him face to face, and it is good to feed on the word.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and I have always thought that he was speaking of a heavenly kingdom, but recently the thought that it was actually a new world has come to mind. A new world consisting of a new heaven and a new earth.

In chapter 19 we have the wedding, or the harvest if you will. At the end of the first age the face of the earth was changed. It became new. The second age was the age of the Law and the Jew, and that age has ended. We are now in the age of the Gentile, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. This age too will pass, as Paul said, "Until the time of the Gentile be fulfilled". I believe that age culminates with the wedding and the cleansing of this earth. Cleansed with fire, and given a thousand year rest, it will be a new earth. All sin will be removed from the earth as it was the first time.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I believe the new covenant, which is the opening of the eyes of the Jews and instilling of the knowledge of God to their hearts occurs in the new earth, immediately after the Millennium. The reuniting of the two kingdoms, Northern and Southern, takes place with the resurrection of the dry bones of Ezekiel. God will then fulfill all the promises left standing for the Jews.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (33-34) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So, without knowing, would you not agree that viewing the 24 elders (Rev. 4:4, 11:16 & 19:4) as representing the 12 tribes of Israel
in Rev. 7:4-8 & 14:1 plus the 12 apostles of Christ cited in Rev. 21:14 is a good guess indicating that the bride of Christ cited
in Rev. 19:7 includes both OT & NT believers?

Could be. Don't know

 

[GWH]

Could be. Don't know

Don't know, but the math makes it quite possible.

 

[Mem]

We will never attain to the whole picture until we meet him face to face, and it is good to feed on the word.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and I have always thought that he was speaking of a heavenly kingdom, but recently the thought that it was actually a new world has come to mind. A new world consisting of a new heaven and a new earth.

In chapter 19 we have the wedding, or the harvest if you will. At the end of the first age the face of the earth was changed. It became new. The second age was the age of the Law and the Jew, and that age has ended. We are now in the age of the Gentile, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. This age too will pass, as Paul said, "Until the time of the Gentile be fulfilled". I believe that age culminates with the wedding and the cleansing of this earth. Cleansed with fire, and given a thousand year rest, it will be a new earth. All sin will be removed from the earth as it was the first time.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I believe the new covenant, which is the opening of the eyes of the Jews and instilling of the knowledge of God to their hearts occurs in the new earth, immediately after the Millennium. The reuniting of the two kingdoms, Northern and Southern, takes place with the resurrection of the dry bones of Ezekiel. God will then fulfill all the promises left standing for the Jews.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (33-34) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

This is a novel reading of Rom 11:25 and Jer 31:31, that is at least to me, which gives me something new to consider. Should we make the distinction in the covenant with house of Israel (law in inward parts) from the (new) covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (the one stick)? It seems that the "But" indicates such, unless of course it is a 'but' in the sense of a 'therefore.' Would I be wrong to assume that you hold that we, now alive within the time of the Gentiles, currently abide under the covenant of Abraham, which is yet another distinction?

Abraham was put to sleep while his covenant was formed between the pillar of fire (His representative, God the Son) and the pillar of smoke (God the Father) which passed between the pieces. Effectively, the pillar of fire took upon Himself Abraham's account within that covenant. That is, if Abraham failed to uphold his part, rather than he be killed in the manner of the piece that was representative of his judgment, the Son of God took upon Himself that judgment.

As, now that I've took pause to consider the possible distinctions, there does seem to be some significance there.
However, I'm still finding some difficulty in seeing the covenant with Israel will not occur until the millennium is over.

Rather, I can't readily dismiss that the Ezekiel resurrection doesn't occur immediately after, if not simultaneously, with the first resurrection. That is, as the law written on their hearts is concurrent with them coming to know God, and therefore becoming one as much with God as the other seems to hint toward "but we will all be changed (1Cor 15:52)" at the last trumpet. And so [there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (who is father of Israel and Judah)] And so, all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25) for I will forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more (Jer 31:34).

Even so, I'll be sure to keep that perspective, the possibility of Isreal's covenant occurring after the millennium, in mind within my studies going forward.

 

[tttallison]

This is a novel reading of Rom 11:25 and Jer 31:31, that is at least to me, which gives me something new to consider. Should we make the distinction in the covenant with house of Israel (law in inward parts) from the (new) covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah (the one stick)? It seems that the "But" indicates such, unless of course it is a 'but' in the sense of a 'therefore.' Would I be wrong to assume that you hold that we, now alive within the time of the Gentiles, currently abide under the covenant of Abraham, which is yet another distinction?

Abraham was put to sleep while his covenant was formed between the pillar of fire (His representative, God the Son) and the pillar of smoke (God the Father) which passed between the pieces. Effectively, the pillar of fire took upon Himself Abraham's account within that covenant. That is, if Abraham failed to uphold his part, rather than he be killed in the manner of the piece that was representative of his judgment, the Son of God took upon Himself that judgment.

As, now that I've took pause to consider the possible distinctions, there does seem to be some significance there.
However, I'm still finding some difficulty in seeing the covenant with Israel will not occur until the millennium is over.

Rather, I can't readily dismiss that the Ezekiel resurrection doesn't occur immediately after, if not simultaneously, with the first resurrection. That is, as the law written on their hearts is concurrent with them coming to know God, and therefore becoming one as much with God as the other seems to hint toward "but we will all be changed (1Cor 15:52)" at the last trumpet. And so [there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (who is father of Israel and Judah)] And so, all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25) for I will forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more (Jer 31:34).

Even so, I'll be sure to keep that perspective, the possibility of Isreal's covenant occurring after the millennium, in mind within my studies going forward.

I have had very little formal training in the Bible, so what I believe is what I literally read. I have never read where Abraham was promised eternal life in the Old Testament. Abraham's Covenant, as I understand it, was that Abraham was to be perfect (Without blemish) before the Lord, and his seed would be blessed. I believe I have eternal life because I have been grafted into Christ as an unnatural branch in a tree of life. I knocked at the door and Christ opened it, and invited me in.

The bible makes a distinction between the nation Israel, and the individual Jewish believers that have accepted Christ. As a nation their eyes have not been opened, for they still reject Christ. That is the promise, that their eyes will be opened, and they will have no need of a teacher. That is the New Covenant.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Isn't Paul looking at this as a future event?)

I believe the Jews living above ground today have only one hope of salvation, and that is to accept Christ now.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Isn't Paul looking at this as a future event?)

No, it was the current reality for the elect.

 

[tttallison]

No, it was the current reality for the elect.

There are two problems with your statement in regards to the context of Romans 11. Romans 11:25 says they are blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, and second, they are enemies of the gospel. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Has the fulness of the Gentiles been completed?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

There are two problems with your statement in regards to the context of Romans 11. Romans 11:25 says they are blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, and second, they are enemies of the gospel. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Has the fulness of the Gentiles been completed?

Romans 11 says that some are blinded and hardened until that time, which is the return of the lord. In other words there will always be a believing remnant, ie., the election. The election are not enemies; they are beloved through the promises made to the fathers. The unbelieving part, those that are hardened, are the enemies.

You have it completely bacwards and are calling the hardened, unbelieving part beloved and the believing election enemies.

 

[dkontner]

Romans 11 says that some are blinded and hardened until that time, which is the return of the lord. In other words there will always be a believing remnant, ie., the election. The election are not enemies; they are beloved through the promises made to the fathers. The unbelieving part, those that are hardened, are the enemies.

You have it completely bacwards and are calling the hardened, unbelieving part beloved and the believing election enemies.

Maybe the remnant was saved by Jesus when He gave gifts to men and led captivity captive? Then maybe He scattered and destroyed them in 70 A.D. like He said (which is also a prophecy of the end, Mystery Babylon)? Maybe there is no more remnant to be saved? Maybe they are those who say they are Jews but are not? Because God makes us a Jew when He grafts us in with His baptism.

Romans 2:28-29
King James Version
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Maybe the remnant was saved by Jesus when He gave gifts to men and led captivity captive? Then maybe He scattered and destroyed them in 70 A.D. like He said (which is also a prophecy of the end, Mystery Babylon)? Maybe there is no more remnant to be saved? Maybe they are those who say they are Jews but are not? Because God makes us a Jew when He grafts us in with His baptism.

Romans 2:28-29
King James Version
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul was making the point that not all Israel had been cast away, and used himself as an example. God hadn't failed in his promises to Israel because he preserved for himself a faithful remnant from among them. Those were the initial disciples and the rest of Israel appointed unto salvation starting at Pentecost. And then, of course, the gentiles were added to them to fill out the fullness and complete the temple as God intended it to be. In Christ they are all one where there is neither Jew, nor gentile. However, if a comparison is made between God's people and the world, then those of faith are Jews; those who worship God in spirit and truth, who place no confidence in the things of the world, like circumcision, ethnicity, lineage, etc.

 

[ThunderPen]

What about the wheat and the tares? It doesn't mention a third group who is left. In Revelation 19 it says the remnant is killed. Why is Satan bound for a thousand years, unless there is a thousand year Sabbath? The

The rest, of the army gathered to fight Christ and His army, are slain by the fire that comes out of the mouth of Christ.

Satan is bound "that he many deceive the nations no more" Revelation 20:3
We see therefore nations remaining.

"...the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ " Revelation 11:15


Zechariah 14:16-19
" the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles."

Zechariah 14:12
" This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will decay while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will decay in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. "


For 1000 years the immortal saints rule over any remaining mortals, then Satan is let loose one last time and goes out "to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" Revelation 20:8

After the 1000 years:

Revelation 21:4
"There will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things (death and decay) are passed away."
( Matthew 6:20 )

 

[tttallison]

The rest, of the army gathered to fight Christ and His army, are slain by the fire that comes out of the mouth of Christ.

Satan is bound "that he many deceive the nations no more" Revelation 20:3
We see therefore nations remaining.

"...the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ " Revelation 11:15


Zechariah 14:16-19
" the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles."

Zechariah 14:12
" This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will decay while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will decay in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. "


For 1000 years the immortal saints rule over any remaining mortals, then Satan is let loose one last time and goes out "to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" Revelation 20:8

After the 1000 years:

Revelation 21:4
"There will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things (death and decay) are passed away."
( Matthew 6:20 )

If you say Zechariah 14 takes place during the Millennium, how is it that it states Jerusalem shall dwell in safety (Zec 14:11
And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.), yet there is another battle.

(Rev 20:8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.)

 

[JustThinking]

This thread is named Revelation 19, A major key to understanding Revelation, but I'm not really seeing any major key revealed here. What am I missing?

I will provide a significant key to understanding Revelation, found in Daniel. We all refer to the 7-year period as 'The 7-year Tribulation', when actually the 7 years we are really referring to is 'Daniel's 70th week', and this is what scripture says about Daniel's 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........................................
Who and What are the seventy week periods determined for - The Jewish People and Jerusalem. This is a statement that excludes the world outside of Israel during the fulfilment of Daniel's 70th week. We may try to dismiss this as not really meaning what it says, but the truth is it would read just fine without the exclusive determination (“Seventy weeks are determined, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........). It is there for a specific reason, not to be dismissed or ignored.

Only Revelation chapters 11-14 are exclusively about Israel. These chapters alone are the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week, and they even define so via the 2 time durations given, 42 months of 2 Jewish witnesses (Rev 11:2,3) and Antichrist chasing Jewish faithful for 1,260 days (Rev 12:6), making up the 2 halves of Daniel's 70th week.

Chapters 8 and 9 are about God's wrath against the World and not part of the 7-year period.

In Daniel 12:11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. ;Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Note: 1,290 days is 43 months (30 days longer than the 42 months). I suspect there is a 30-day overlap of the 2nd half with the first half, with the temple fully operational for the first 41 months, then sacrifices are stopped by the antichrist, followed by the last 30 days of 2 witnesses preaching. The witnesses are killed at the end of the 42nd month. This puts the abomination at the end of 84 months (7 years), but then we have the blessed are those who wait and come to 1,335 days. The 'who wait and come' is an extension of the 2nd half (42 months or 1,260 days of the 70th week). This extension of 75 days is beyond (outside) the 7-years of the 70th week. We should align this blessing reference to;

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

These 75 days after' the 7-Years are when the sickle harvest occurs, followed by the final aspects of God's wrath. Jesus has arrived on Earth as Chapter 14 begins with Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jewish witnesses from Chapter 7. Before Post Tribbers get too excited, the 2nd half of chapter 7 is the Raptured church, 'saved by Grace', without question. It is so self-evident that I'm not going to waste time defending it. But I will point out why the sickle harvest is not the gathering of the Bride. Notice in red above the blessing is for those saved by their works, as opposed to Christ's Bride is saved by Grace.

I noticed some comments on who populates the world for the millennial kingdom. We needn't look further than the first harvest, which is of an unknown crop. Notice there is no reference to them going to Heaven. It finishes with. I suspect they are mostly Jewish, as Judaism is based predominantly on works (law keeping).
Rev 14:16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
The second harvest is a known crop of grapes, cast into the wine press of wrath. The church is symbolized as the 'covenant of new wine.' Grapes, wine, winepress of wrath, don't add up to the Bride of Christ very well. But these sickle harvests do fit well with Jesus's parable of Wheat and Tares, Matthew 13:24-30, spoken to the Jewish people.
In chapters 15 and 16, we find the bowls' judgments of wrath, which appear to occur during the 75 days. This is why I presently suspect the 70th week ends sometime after the Jewish sickle harvests, and the bowl judgments deal with those outside of Israel with the Mark of the Beast

I think the major key to understanding Revelation is accepting what is stated (without dismissal) in Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, ......................

Interested to know what you think

This is interesting! So, if you would not mind, and we should try to discuss each of the following one at a time.... would you please answer the following:


1) where do you find there is a 7 year tribulation in either Daniel or in Revelation?

2) Do you agree that Daniel carries forward so much symbolism and understanding for us to be able to interpret Revelation? And in this one case, if there is a 7 year tribulation in Revelation, it would have to also be found in Daniel....

3) What does the term AOD in Daniel mean?

4) In Daniel, has the 70 weeks of years prophecy been fulfilled by the Messiah?

5) Is there a "gap" associated with the 70 weeks of years prophecy in Daniel? Is it partially, or fully pushed out into the future?

6) What is the definition of the 1290 days in Daniel 12?

7) What is the definition of the 1335 days in Daniel 12?

8) Where do you find in Daniel or Revelation the term "anti-christ" being used? Who is this "anti-christ" figure and when does he arrive?

9) Who is the little horn of Daniel 7, 8 and 11?

10) When does he arrive on the scene?

11) Who are the 144,000 in Revelation?

12) When do they arrive on the earth?

13) What, if any, is the difference between the 1260 days and the 42 months in Revelation?

14) Do these terms in #13 refer to Daniel?



This, of course, is just a small sample of questions that I thought of after reading your post. They certainly deserve talking about.

 

[JustThinking]

Something to think about.

I produced a list relating to three and a half months some years ago. Doubt if it is complete

Three and a half years

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (3 and 1/2 years)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (3 and 1/2 years)

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Hebrew.( 6 years 4 months and 20 days) or Greek(6 years and 8 months)

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. (3 and 1/2 years)

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (3 years 7 months)

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (3 years 8 & 1/2 months)

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (3 and 1/2 years)

This is indeed a nice list. And it proves, to me, just how complicated the Book of Daniel really is. I have yet to find scholars who have produced "today's accepted interpretation" come to a consensus on the many / major prophetic verses in Daniel. They are literally all over the place. Almost ALL scholars / interpreters / commentaters have tried to unpack and interpret the Book of Daniel using a "historical" approach, that is, let's see if we can match the verses in Daniel to our history books... if we can, then we can have comfort in our interpretations. But just one of the many problems this causes is that when they do not find a "matching event or actor" in our history books, they then make the claim they (events and actors) must have not yet taken place and they throw (so many) prophecies into the future - some 2000 years later.

This is indeed how "today's accepted interpretations" of Daniel has been produced - again, no consesus but same approach. But we must remember that God has specifically told us in Daniel that this book is written for His people and His city - the Jews who would be returning to Jerusalem... not to a people or a time some 2000 years in the future. So, having said that, I believe that, with the exception of God providing us with some (not many) verses that speak to the end times (and ONLY in broad terms - no details because He left that up for Revelation to address), most of Daniel speaks to the time between Babylon and the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The remaining discussion in Daniel is chapter 11 - with the exception of 11:1-4, ALL of this chapter deals, in detail, with the post cross consequences of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah.

Having sain this, do you think most of your listing above speaks to the time of the Messiah? Thanks.

 

[Inquisitor]

This is indeed how "today's accepted interpretations" of Daniel has been produced - again, no consesus but same approach. But we must remember that God has specifically told us in Daniel that this book is written for His people and His city - the Jews who would be returning to Jerusalem... not to a people or a time some 2000 years in the future. So, having said that, I believe that, with the exception of God providing us with some (not many) verses that speak to the end times (and ONLY in broad terms - no details because He left that up for Revelation to address), most of Daniel speaks to the time between Babylon and the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The remaining discussion in Daniel is chapter 11 - with the exception of 11:1-4, ALL of this chapter deals, in detail, with the post cross consequences of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah.

I would agree with what you wrote.

If the modern Christian bible included 1 Maccabees some of the issues in Daniel would be easily addressed.

God has specifically told us in Daniel that this book is written for His people and His city - the Jews who would be returning to Jerusalem

That is what the bulk of Daniel concerns.

Modern Christians ignore the context in every book and letter.

 

[JustThinking]

I would agree with what you wrote.

If the modern Christian bible included 1 Maccabees some of the issues in Daniel would be easily addressed.

God has specifically told us in Daniel that this book is written for His people and His city - the Jews who would be returning to Jerusalem

That is what the bulk of Daniel concerns.

Modern Christians ignore the context in every book and letter.

Thank you... and I do not want to have any kind of argument with you, but, unless I misunderstand you, I would like you to consider that chapter 11 has absolutely nothing to do with Epiphanes, the Ptoemey's, the Selucid's, etc., It is all about the coming of the Messiah and what takes place after the cross - to His people, His church, the church going through the reign of pagan Rome, the demise of pagan Rome, the coming of the little horn and the appropriation of His church by the little horn who will stay in power until His return. That is all chapter 11.

 

[tttallison]

This is indeed a nice list. And it proves, to me, just how complicated the Book of Daniel really is. I have yet to find scholars who have produced "today's accepted interpretation" come to a consensus on the many / major prophetic verses in Daniel. They are literally all over the place. Almost ALL scholars / interpreters / commentaters have tried to unpack and interpret the Book of Daniel using a "historical" approach, that is, let's see if we can match the verses in Daniel to our history books... if we can, then we can have comfort in our interpretations. But just one of the many problems this causes is that when they do not find a "matching event or actor" in our history books, they then make the claim they (events and actors) must have not yet taken place and they throw (so many) prophecies into the future - some 2000 years later.

This is indeed how "today's accepted interpretations" of Daniel has been produced - again, no consesus but same approach. But we must remember that God has specifically told us in Daniel that this book is written for His people and His city - the Jews who would be returning to Jerusalem... not to a people or a time some 2000 years in the future. So, having said that, I believe that, with the exception of God providing us with some (not many) verses that speak to the end times (and ONLY in broad terms - no details because He left that up for Revelation to address), most of Daniel speaks to the time between Babylon and the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The remaining discussion in Daniel is chapter 11 - with the exception of 11:1-4, ALL of this chapter deals, in detail, with the post cross consequences of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah.

Having sain this, do you think most of your listing above speaks to the time of the Messiah? Thanks.

Short answer, Yes I do. Dan 9:24 has a list of six items for which the 70th week was appointed, and they were all accomplished.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. To finish the transgression.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Mat 5:17)

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

2. To make an end of sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.

Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

6. To anoint the most Holy.

Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

 

[JustThinking]

Short answer, Yes I do. Dan 9:24 has a list of six items for which the 70th week was appointed, and they were all accomplished.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. To finish the transgression.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Mat 5:17)

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

2. To make an end of sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.

Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

6. To anoint the most Holy.

Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Very nice response. Should we move onto the othered … if you want to? Thanks.

 

[tttallison]

Very nice response. Should we move onto the othered … if you want to? Thanks.

Are you referring to chapter 11?