The book of Job

[christophernyc]

What does the bible say about verbiage?

Not sure the bible does say anything about it. That’s the point. It’s you who are injecting this kind of qualifier into this story where it does not exist.

Where and how exactly did you come up with these qualifiers for Job under his circumstances anyway? We are already told what the test is about in chapters 1 & 2, namely, that Job will curse God if he suffers the loss of his possession, and then the loss of his health. In neither case does he curse God and he passes both. Those are the terms of the tests. Read it again.

It appears you are superimposing new qualifiers for Job that do not exist in the text. Why do you think you do that? Why does it appear you are unable to accept the story as written without inventing new ideas to put on top of it?

Job definitely did not believe as Moses believed. Moses said, Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

When Moses speaks and when Job speaks are in two totally different contexts. And I am not convinced that you somehow know everything Job believes and understand everything that is in his heart. In fact, some of the judgments you make against him are in direct opposition to what God has said about him. I encourage you to rethink those views.

Job never said God was a God of truth and without iniquity, and in fact Job said just the opposite. Job said God was unjust. Job said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job said what he said within the context of what he himself was suffering. He was not declaring these things as a general statement for all men, for all time. Context. Context. Context.

Are you aware of your pattern of conflating different contexts inaccurately?

Job said God multiplied his wounds without cause.

We know Job suffered without cause according to God’s own words in Job 2:3. What Job states he is suffering is true — it’s what is happening to him. That’s the story.

Job reproved God and condemned God. Moses never did any such thing.

Job never condemned God. Job would not pray to God, seek Him, and declare he knows his Redeemer lives if he had any such inclination to condemn God. That statement is blasphemous.

 

[tttallison]

Not sure the bible does say anything about it. That’s the point. It’s you who are injecting this kind of qualifier into this story where it does not exist.

Where and how exactly did you come up with these qualifiers for Job under his circumstances anyway? We are already told what the test is about in chapters 1 & 2, namely, that Job will curse God if he suffers the loss of his possession, and then the loss of his health. In neither case does he curse God and he passes both. Those are the terms of the tests. Read it again.

It appears you are superimposing new qualifiers for Job that do not exist in the text. Why do you think you do that? Why does it appear you are unable to accept the story as written without inventing new ideas to put on top of it?



When Moses speaks and when Job speaks are in two totally different contexts. And I am not convinced that you somehow know everything Job believes and understand everything that is in his heart. In fact, some of the judgments you make against him are in direct opposition to what God has said about him. I encourage you to rethink those views.



Job said what he said within the context of what he himself was suffering. He was not declaring these things as a general statement for all men, for all time. Context. Context. Context.

Are you aware of your pattern of conflating different contexts inaccurately?



We know Job suffered without cause according to God’s own words in Job 2:3. What Job states he is suffering is true — it’s what is happening to him. That’s the story.



Job never condemned God. Job would not pray to God, seek Him, and declare he knows his Redeemer lives if he had any such inclination to condemn God. That statement is blasphemous.

Verbiage/Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

The Hebrew reads, "He will not bless you." In the first test Job blesses God, and in the second test he does not bless God, nor does God exonerate Job after the second test. You need to explain why God didn't exonerate Job after the second test. Was it because God was too busy?

I merely repeated the words of Job, if they weren't words of the heart, why did Job speak them.

Why did God say Job reproved God?

One of us is conflating different contexts inaccurately.

God said Satan had God move against Job without cause. God is talking about Satan's cause. God does not tell us his cause for moving against Job. God is omniscient, Job's reactions were not a surprise, God knew Job would not bless him after the second test.

If Job never condemned God you need to explain why God asked Job if he would condemn God so that Job might be righteous? Was God confused?

Again, why did God say Job reproved God? Why did Job say God would laugh at the trial of the innocent? Why did Job say God covers the faces of the judges? If this isn't condemning God, how far would Job have to go with his words for you to say Job condemned God?

 

[christophernyc]

Verbiage/Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

OK, nice, you found a verse about it, but let's not change the subject. The point about verbiage was about you comparing Moses' words with Job's words and injecting it into the story as some sort of qualifier for Job. You have superimposed this qualifier which is untethered from the story.

The Hebrew reads, "He will not bless you." In the first test Job blesses God, and in the second test he does not bless God

This has already been addressed, and repeating your claim does not make it true. The meaning in chapter 2 is the same as chapter 1, namely that Job will curse God if he suffers.

You seem to hang a significant portion of your interpretation on the word "lo" used in Job 1:11, here is more information for how that particular word is also used in Hebrew:

Original Word: לֹא
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: lo'
Pronunciation: lo
Phonetic Spelling: (lo)
KJV: X before, + or else, ere, + except, ig(-norant), much, less, nay, neither, never, no((-ne), -r, (-thing)), (X as though,(can-), for) not (out of), of nought, otherwise, out of, + surely, + as truly as, + of a truth, + verily, for want, + whether, without

Notice the alternative uses? It's not just the one you seem to have clung onto, which is why other translations include these kinds of words.

NKJV: But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
TLV: But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!”

The challenge is whether or not Job will "curse" God --- not if Job will "not bless" God.

nor does God exonerate Job after the second test. You need to explain why God didn't exonerate Job after the second test. Was it because God was too busy?

Yeah, God does exonerate Job twice when He says that Job spoke rightly about Him. It's in chapter 42:7,8.

I merely repeated the words of Job, if they weren't words of the heart, why did Job speak them.

My point was that I am not convinced you know everything in Job's heart, especially since we have no recorded words of him either before or after his excrutiating ordeal.

Why did God say Job reproved God?

Job was arguing his case that he was innocent. He wanted God to hear his argument, which he knew to be true. God knew this to be true, too, when you read chapters 1 & 2.

One of us is conflating different contexts inaccurately.

Correct, as I previously stated.

God said Satan had God move against Job without cause. God is talking about Satan's cause. God does not tell us his cause for moving against Job. God is omniscient, Job's reactions were not a surprise, God knew Job would not bless him after the second test.

Without cause means "without cause". That's it. Here is another example of inventing and fabricating ideas untethered from the text.

If Job never condemned God you need to explain why God asked Job if he would condemn God so that Job might be righteous? Was God confused?

Because the accuser of the brethren, Elihu, a puppet of satan, was trying to beat that idea into Job's head. To clear the record, God asks Job about it. Notice God does not accuse Job like Elihu does. Job's answer to God is effectively "no". So, no, Job does not condemn God, even when he was given the opportunity to "curse God to His face" as previously predicted in chapters 1 & 2 by the liar satan.

Again, why did God say Job reproved God? Why did Job say God would laugh at the trial of the innocent? Why did Job say God covers the faces of the judges? If this isn't condemning God, how far would Job have to go with his words for you to say Job condemned God?

The things Job states are things that are happening to him, which God allowed to happen to him. What do you expect his extreme suffering to look like? And so what if Job states them? They're true. God allowed these kinds of horrendous things to happen to Job. And why? Because God knew that Job, whom God repeatedly calls "My Servant", would succeed and prove satan and his false accusations wrong.

 

[tttallison]

You seem to hang a significant portion of your interpretation on the word "lo" used in Job 1:11, here is more information for how that particular word is also used in Hebrew:

Original Word: לֹא
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: lo'
Pronunciation: lo
Phonetic Spelling: (lo)
KJV: X before, + or else, ere, + except, ig(-norant), much, less, nay, neither, never, no((-ne), -r, (-thing)), (X as though,(can-), for) not (out of), of nought, otherwise, out of, + surely, + as truly as, + of a truth, + verily, for want, + whether, without

Are you being intellectually dishonest here in order to prop up Job.

Strong's Number H3808 matches the Hebrew לֹא (lō'),

The KJV translates Strong's H3808 in the following manner: not, no, none, nay, never, neither, ere, otherwise, before.
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. not, no
   
   1. not (with verb - absolute prohibition)
   2. not (with modifier - negation)
   3. nothing (subst)
   4. without (with particle)
   5. before (of time)

 

[christophernyc]

Are you being intellectually dishonest here in order to prop up Job.

Strong's Number H3808 matches the Hebrew לֹא (lō'),

The KJV translates Strong's H3808 in the following manner: not, no, none, nay, never, neither, ere, otherwise, before.
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. not, no
   1. not (with verb - absolute prohibition)
   2. not (with modifier - negation)
   3. nothing (subst)
   4. without (with particle)
   5. before (of time)

Pretty sure this question was posed to you before, but here it is again. Is there any English translation you can point to that supports your personal view? Is there a translation you can share that shows the meaning of that verse to indicate that Job will “not bless” instead of “curse” God?

Does this interpretation exist anywhere else outside of your mind? If so, please share with us.

 

[TruthDefender]

There were many theories on why Job suffered the things he suffered. God rebuked several of the people with the opinions.

However, in this thread I would like to look at what the rest of the Bible says to figure out what God's role was and why this happened.

1. God is omniscient. The book of Job makes it clear that He knew what Satan was planning to do.

2. God is omnipotent. The book of Job makes it clear that God allowed it to happen.

If you deny that God is omniscient then that is considered Blasphemy. If you deny that God is omnipotent that also is blasphemy.

3. God said this about Job: "8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

So that has to be part of your explanation, it can't contradict what God says here because God cannot lie.

Now we have promises from God in Psalm 91 and Deuteronomy 28 to protect us from evil. That is a covenant that we have with God.

How can you reconcile the covenant and promises we have with God with what happened? By all means use your own personal experiences if that helps explain this.

“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬-‭10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Even with all that Satan did to Job, he was found innocent. God would not allow Satan to destroy Job; He allowed everything else to be destroyed, just not Job.

 

[ZNP]

“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬-‭10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Even with all that Satan did to Job, he was found innocent. God would not allow Satan to destroy Job; He allowed everything else to be destroyed, just not Job.

Job is a a picture of all mankind. What happens to Job is a picture of what happens to those left behind after the rapture. Now this is an all inclusive picture, so it includes Abraham, and Elijah, but also Elisha and Joseph, and all the Israelites who died in the wilderness as well as their children who entered the good land. It is also talking about Jesus and what happened to Him on the cross. Every believer needs to take up their cross and follow Jesus and so we also may give up family, friends, jobs, etc. to follow the Lord. Some believers are arrogant and assume that because they prayed 20 years ago they have an insurance policy and will be raptured despite not taking up their cross and following the Lord. That error will be rectified when they are left behind during the tribulation.

There is no other way to understand this book as being an integral part of the Bible. Jesus told us the Old Testament was about Him. On the cross Jesus cried "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" and that would be a realistic and plausible thing for Job to say.

People who are struggling to understand what happens to Job simply need to read the Bible to get the explanation.

 

[TruthDefender]

Job is a a picture of all mankind. What happens to Job is a picture of what happens to those left behind after the rapture. Now this is an all inclusive picture, so it includes Abraham, and Elijah, but also Elisha and Joseph, and all the Israelites who died in the wilderness as well as their children who entered the good land. It is also talking about Jesus and what happened to Him on the cross. Every believer needs to take up their cross and follow Jesus and so we also may give up family, friends, jobs, etc. to follow the Lord. Some believers are arrogant and assume that because they prayed 20 years ago they have an insurance policy and will be raptured despite not taking up their cross and following the Lord. That error will be rectified when they are left behind during the tribulation.

There is no other way to understand this book as being an integral part of the Bible. Jesus told us the Old Testament was about Him. On the cross Jesus cried "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" and that would be a realistic and plausible thing for Job to say.

People who are struggling to understand what happens to Job simply need to read the Bible to get the explanation.

That’s a different twist on the book of Job!

I think God allowed those things to happen, because He already knew what the outcome would be in advance, seeing that God the Father is omniscient.

 

[christophernyc]

It is also talking about Jesus and what happened to Him on the cross.

There is no other way to understand this book as being an integral part of the Bible. Jesus told us the Old Testament was about Him. On the cross Jesus cried "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" and that would be a realistic and plausible thing for Job to say.

People who are struggling to understand what happens to Job simply need to read the Bible to get the explanation.

Excellent. Job is not Jesus, but the parallels and similarities are striking, namely a blameless, innocent man who suffers. It appears God may have been using Job and his story as a foreshadowing of the Messiah to come later. And, of course, Job and his testimony are not the only narrative in the Old Testament to do this very thing.

Luke 24:44-46
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.

 

[tttallison]

Pretty sure this question was posed to you before, but here it is again. Is there any English translation you can point to that supports your personal view? Is there a translation you can share that shows the meaning of that verse to indicate that Job will “not bless” instead of “curse” God?

Does this interpretation exist anywhere else outside of your mind? If so, please share with us.

There isn't a translation but their is a bible that says bless. Called the Hebrew Bible.

THE TWO TESTS OF JOB​

Job had two tests. In the reading of the first and second chapters of Job we are caught up with the anguish and torment of Job, and in the process we are blinded to the actual results of the two tests.

The first thing that should come to your observation is the process of the presentation of these two tests. They are virtually word for word in the presentation between the first test and the second test. What would one obvious reason be for the two presentations being almost identical? One obvious reason would be that we might take note of that, which is different between the two tests.

PRSENTATION OF THE TWO TESTS​

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Second Test Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them, to present himself before the Lord.

In the first test Satan appears to have been a casual observer, while in the second test you might assume Satan was commanded to be there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Second Test Job 2:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Second Test Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
The difference is the first test has already taken place, and Job has passed. Two other things should be noted here. 1. That God did the moving, or is responsible for Job’s tribulation. 2. That Satan’s cause was unjust, Job passed. It does not mention God’s cause for allowing the test.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:9-10 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hand, and his substance is increased in the land.
Second Test Job 2:4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

The difference is that the first test has taken place. The new test does not involve possessions, but Job himself.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Second Test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
The difference here is that Satan gives his new reason why Job will fail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:6-7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; but save his life. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord,--.

God’s presentation of the two tests is unique in that every word that could be duplicated was, from one test compared to the other test. It is the results of the two tests that will be presented next, and the obvious differences stand out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God’s presentation of the two tests is unique in that every word that could be duplicated was, from one test compared to the other test. It is the results of the two tests that will be presented next, and the obvious differences stand out.

Continued---

 

[Genez]

Excuse me...

Why should Satan even want to make his wager with the Lord to begin with?

But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, ​

and he will surely curse you to your face.” Job 1:11​

Why would Satan want to make that an issue?

Because it happened to Satan.

In a time before Adam was created?
When it was just God and the angels...
Satan before his fall, like Job, was blameless in all his ways!

You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. ​

You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. ​

You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till ​

wickedness was found in you. Ezekiel 28:14-15​

What happened to Satan?

In Christ....

 

[tttallison]

There isn't a translation but their is a bible that says bless. Called the Hebrew Bible.

THE TWO TESTS OF JOB​

Job had two tests. In the reading of the first and second chapters of Job we are caught up with the anguish and torment of Job, and in the process we are blinded to the actual results of the two tests.

The first thing that should come to your observation is the process of the presentation of these two tests. They are virtually word for word in the presentation between the first test and the second test. What would one obvious reason be for the two presentations being almost identical? One obvious reason would be that we might take note of that, which is different between the two tests.

PRSENTATION OF THE TWO TESTS​

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Second Test Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them, to present himself before the Lord.

In the first test Satan appears to have been a casual observer, while in the second test you might assume Satan was commanded to be there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Second Test Job 2:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Second Test Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
The difference is the first test has already taken place, and Job has passed. Two other things should be noted here. 1. That God did the moving, or is responsible for Job’s tribulation. 2. That Satan’s cause was unjust, Job passed. It does not mention God’s cause for allowing the test.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:9-10 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hand, and his substance is increased in the land.
Second Test Job 2:4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

The difference is that the first test has taken place. The new test does not involve possessions, but Job himself.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First Test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Second Test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
The difference here is that Satan gives his new reason why Job will fail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:6-7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; but save his life. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord,--.

God’s presentation of the two tests is unique in that every word that could be duplicated was, from one test compared to the other test. It is the results of the two tests that will be presented next, and the obvious differences stand out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God’s presentation of the two tests is unique in that every word that could be duplicated was, from one test compared to the other test. It is the results of the two tests that will be presented next, and the obvious differences stand out.

Continued---

RESULTS OF THE TWO TESTS​

First Test Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, and said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes. (Notice that Job does not bless God. This was what Satan had said, that Job would "not bless" [lo-barak] God to his face.)

After the first test Job prostrated himself before God and worshipped God. Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, and then blessed the name of the Lord.

After the second test Job sat down and said nothing. The worshipping and blessing of God is missing. When Job finally said something it was in reply to his wife’s question, in which Job replied with a question, “shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Notice after the first test Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, but after the second test we hear Job cursing the day he came out of his mother’s womb. (Job 3:1,10-12)

First Test Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Second Test Job 2:10 ---In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Herein lays the key to the two tests. Job is completely exonerated in the first test. Notice that Job did not sin in any manner. Examine that which is added, “nor charged God foolishly”. Job charged God foolishly time and time again after the second test, but after the first test Job did not charge God foolishly.

After the second test it is recorded that Job did not sin with his lips, but what about his heart?

There is no meeting between God and Satan that is recorded after the second test. After the first test God said to Satan in regards to Job, “--There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil, and still he holded fast his integrity,--” (Job 2:3)

After the second test we do not have God commending Job to Satan, why not?

Excuse me...

Why should Satan even want to make his wager with the Lord to begin with?

But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, ​

and he will surely curse you to your face.” Job 1:11​

Why would Satan want to make that an issue?

Because it happened to Satan.

In a time before Adam was created?
When it was just God and the angels...
Satan before his fall, like Job, was blameless in all his ways!

You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. ​

You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. ​

You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till ​

wickedness was found in you. Ezekiel 28:14-15​

What happened to Satan?

In Christ....

The same thing that happened to Job when he exalted himself above God.

 

[Genez]

The same thing that happened to Job when he exalted himself above God.

How's that?
In what way?

Did he want to replace the Lord and have his own throne in the place of the Lord's, like Satan did?

You said in your heart,​

“I will ascend to the heavens;​

I will raise my throne​

above the stars of God;​

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,​

on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.​

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;​

I will make myself like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:13-14​

​

​

Job never got that way.​

 

[christophernyc]

There isn't a translation but their is a bible that says bless. Called the Hebrew Bible.

So there is not one translation of that verse you can point to (outside of yourself) that supports your personal interpretation. Got it.

Please tell us then, is it your view then that every English translation of that verse is wrong? Is that your position? Please explain.

 

[tttallison]

How's that?
In what way?

Did he want to replace the Lord and have his own throne in the place of the Lord's, like Satan did?

You said in your heart,​

“I will ascend to the heavens;​

I will raise my throne​

above the stars of God;​

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,​

on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.​

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;​

I will make myself like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:13-14​

​

​

Job never got that way.​

Well Job said he was righteous and that God was not. Job said, Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me: Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

 

[Genez]

Well Job said he was righteous and that God was not. Job said, Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me: Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

That sort of thing was understandable (but still wrong) considering that Job was born with a sin nature.

In contrast to Job?
Lucifer did two things which were inexcusable...

He cursed the Lord to His face while the Lord was discipling him in a desire to have him repent.
Which is why Satan had his wager against Job... to prove that if Job did the same thing? That Satan really did nothing wrong!

And the very worst sin? The one that Satan committed?

When Satan said he was to take the place of the Lord and replace Him with his own throne?
What he did in his heart?
Was to assassinate the Lord, and take his place! MURDER!

That is why Jesus said the Devil was as a murderer from the beginning.

What Job did was not even close in comparison!

 

[Genez]

Well Job said he was righteous and that God was not. Job said, Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me: Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

Try reading that here to get a clearer picture...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job 29&version=NIV

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Get the context!

Unlike Satan did?
Job after his rebuke... admitted he did wrong against God!

The Lord said to Job:​

​

“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?​

Let him who accuses God answer him!”​

​

Then Job answered the Lord:​

​

“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?​

I put my hand over my mouth.​

I spoke once, but I have no answer—​

twice, but I will say no more.” Job 40:1-5​

......

 

[tttallison]

That sort of thing was understandable (but still wrong) considering that Job was born with a sin nature.

In contrast to Job?
Lucifer did two things which were inexcusable...

He cursed the Lord to His face while the Lord was discipling him in a desire to have him repent.
Which is why Satan had his wager against Job... to prove that if Job did the same thing? That Satan really did nothing wrong!

And the very worst sin? The one that Satan committed?

When Satan said he was to take the place of the Lord and replace Him with his own throne?
What he did in his heart?
Was to assassinate the Lord, and take his place! MURDER!

That is why Jesus said the Devil was as a murderer from the beginning.

What Job did was not even close in comparison!

It sounds like you are admitting that Job, in his pride, exalted himself above God, but unlike Satan, Job repented after being chastised.

I would agree with that conclusion.

 

[Genez]

It sounds like you are admitting that Job, in his pride, exalted himself above God, but unlike Satan, Job repented after being chastised.

I would agree with that conclusion.

Satan hatefully wanted to REPLACE the Lord (the Most High) and take his place enthroned above all the angels!

But? At that time?
Only God could understand the intent.
MURDER.
Satan wanted to assassinate the Lord and replace Him.

Then.... After mankind fell?

Then God had his perfect teaching tool in which was manifested with the depravity of man.
Depravity to teach Satan and the angels what it was that Satan had in his heart towards the Lord.

It was a part of the reason God allowed for the fall of man!
For without men murdering other men?
There was no way for Satan and the angels to understand what it was that Satan desired to do.
Without teaching and clarifying what it was?
They could not be able to understand why God was judging evil angels so severely.

Not even Satan could understand what God knew when the Devil fell.
For before angels fell? Angels did not kill other angels. They did not even know what killing was.
But, God knew.

Since man fell, God has been showing Himself vindicated for condemning Satan and his angels.
For all angels over time have been witnessing to the overt actions in fallen men that were not
to be made overtly evident amongst the angels.

Keep in mind. All angels were created sinless.
How could Satan overtly murder the Lord when angels had no concept of murder?

Just the same.
God understood Satan's desire.
No one who desires to murder the Lord is with any excuse!

Jesus said, in God's eyes, to just think it?
Is as if you committed the act!
Mental attitude sins are very real to God!
We need to recognize them and name them to God for forgiveness. (1 John 1:9)

You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not murder, ​

and whoever murders shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment ​

imposed by the court.​

​

But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors ​

malice (enmity of heart) against him shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment ​

imposed by the court; and whoever speaks contemptuously and insultingly to his brother ​

shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the Sanhedrin, and ​

whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to ​

escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire.​

​

Matthew 5:21-22​

 

[tttallison]

Satan hatefully wanted to REPLACE the Lord (the Most High) and take his place enthroned above all the angels!

But? At that time?
Only God could understand the intent.
MURDER.
Satan wanted to assassinate the Lord and replace Him.

Then.... After mankind fell?

Then God had his perfect teaching tool in which was manifested with the depravity of man.
Depravity to teach Satan and the angels what it was that Satan had in his heart towards the Lord.

It was a part of the reason God allowed for the fall of man!
For without men murdering other men?
There was no way for Satan and the angels to understand what it was that Satan desired to do.
Without teaching and clarifying what it was?
They could not be able to understand why God was judging evil angels so severely.

Not even Satan could understand what God knew when the Devil fell.
For before angels fell? Angels did not kill other angels. They did not even know what killing was.
But, God knew.

Since man fell, God has been showing Himself vindicated for condemning Satan and his angels.
For all angels over time have been witnessing to the overt actions in fallen men that were not
to be made overtly evident amongst the angels.

Keep in mind. All angels were created sinless.
How could Satan overtly murder the Lord when angels had no concept of murder?

Just the same.
God understood Satan's desire.
No one who desires to murder the Lord is with any excuse!

Jesus said, in God's eyes, to just think it?
Is as if you committed the act!
Mental attitude sins are very real to God!
We need to recognize them and name them to God for forgiveness. (1 John 1:9)

You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not murder, ​

and whoever murders shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment ​

imposed by the court.​

​

But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors ​

malice (enmity of heart) against him shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment ​

imposed by the court; and whoever speaks contemptuously and insultingly to his brother ​

shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the Sanhedrin, and ​

whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to ​

escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire.​

​

Matthew 5:21-22​

So Job wasn't as bad as Satan, because Job repented of his sin?