Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

[tttallison]

PART 2.

4) “The People of the Prince Who Is to Come” — Daniel 9:26

Now we reach the controversial phrase:

“the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary…” (v.26)​

This is the only other place in Daniel 9 where the Hebrew title nagiyd appears besides verse 25. But now “Messiah” is absent. That combination matters. It signals that this figure is neither the generic “princes” of Daniel’s prayer (v.6, v.8) nor the titled “Messiah the Prince” of verse 25.

He is a distinct nagiyd—a coming ruler connected to the people who bring destruction. And here is the key nuance: God could have used a common, generic word for ruler here, as Daniel did earlier in his prayer. But He does not. He uses the elevated, purpose-weighted term nagiyd again—without granting the identifying title “Messiah.”

The effect is deliberate. It marks this “prince” as more than a mere military administrator, yet also exposes him as something other than the true Anointed One. He is presented as a counterfeit-prince — a figure who will rise clothed in sacred authority, imitating the posture of divine leadership while lacking the divine identity that belongs to Christ alone. By assigning him the elevated title nagiyd without pairing it with “Messiah,” the text subtly signals that this ruler will not merely govern politically, but will assume a role that encroaches upon divine prerogative. He will not deny God outright; he will claim to represent Him. He will not reject sacred authority; he will assert that he embodies it.

In this way, the wording anticipates a ruler who positions himself as the visible head of God’s people on earth — speaking in God’s name, defining doctrine, mediating forgiveness, and exercising authority over conscience as though heaven itself had vested him with Christ’s office. The absence of the title “Messiah” is therefore not accidental. It is protective. God withholds the true Anointed designation while still using the royal term nagiyd to expose the dangerous resemblance. This prince will present himself as Christ’s earthly stand-in — even as he rises in opposition to the true Prince of princes. The text does not call him Messiah because he is not the Anointed One — but it calls him nagiyd because he will claim a place that looks strikingly similar.

Historically, many identify this with Titus and the Roman forces who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD. As a surface-level fulfillment, the fit is strong: Rome is the destroying “people,” and Titus stands as the associated ruler. Daniel does show that God uses foreign powers as instruments of judgment—Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, and others—so the idea of Rome serving this role is not foreign to Daniel’s pattern. But the verse is phrased carefully. It does not say the prince destroys the city; it says his people do. The destruction is attributed first to the people, and the prince is described as “to come.” That wording allows the prince to be tied to the Roman world and its legacy without requiring him to be the field commander in the moment of destruction. It can point to a ruler who emerges from that same people after the devastation—a later authority arising from the aftermath.

This opens the door to a deeper prophetic layer that aligns with Daniel’s visions. Rome’s people destroy the city and the sanctuary, and out of the Roman world—after Jerusalem’s fall and after pagan Rome’s eventual collapse—another power rises. In Daniel’s language elsewhere, this is the trajectory of the little horn: a deceptive, blasphemous force that emerges from the Roman sphere, takes on a religious-political identity, and stands in opposition to the true Prince of princes (Daniel 8:25). In that reading, Daniel’s post-cross arc unfolds in three movements:

Rome’s people destroy the city and the sanctuary (the historical devastation).​

​

The prince who is to come rises later from among them—the little horn emerging from Rome’s legacy.​

​

He rules over that legacy—not mainly by military conquest, but by spiritual authority, claiming Christ’s place while opposing Christ’s truth.​

So the language of Daniel 9:25–26 is not incidental. Names and titles appear in restoration; they withdraw in judgment. The Messiah is introduced as Prince; He is cut off as sacrifice. And then another nagiyd appears—untitled, ambiguous, “to come”—linked to the destroying people and pointing forward to the long arc of counterfeit power Daniel had unveiled in chapters 7 and 8.

In this way, the text itself guides the reader. It does not require us to begin with speculation. It invites us to watch what Heaven emphasizes, what Heaven withholds, and how the prophecy’s own structure distinguishes the Messiah from the prince who follows—so we can identify “the prince who is to come,” and understand just who “his people” are, in both the historical and prophetic layers Daniel is presenting.

I have a disdain for commentaries. I don't know of a one that doesn't have false premises. A person should be satisfied with the bible as our truth. It will never lead you astray, though we sometimes lead ourselves astray.

 

[JustThinking]

I have a disdain for commentaries. I don't know of a one that doesn't have false premises. A person should be satisfied with the bible as our truth. It will never lead you astray, though we sometimes lead ourselves astray.

Well, I guess that says it all. Best wishes.

 

[LTL]

It would be nice to bring you guys up to speed. However, the gap is a wide gulf between us. Nevertheless, I will try to teach you. Let's begin with the Davidic Kings, of which Jesus was one. When Jesus died, then Mary's son, next in line, is the new Davidic King. Jesus designated the apostle John as his successor. So, when reading Daniel, substitute the appropriate individuals into the latter-day prophecy. It is not brain surgery.

 

[JustThinking]

It would be nice to bring you guys up to speed. However, the gap is a wide gulf between us. Nevertheless, I will try to teach you. Let's begin with the Davidic Kings, of which Jesus was one. When Jesus died, then Mary's son, next in line, is the new Davidic King. Jesus designated the apostle John as his successor. So, when reading Daniel, substitute the appropriate individuals into the latter-day prophecy. It is not brain surgery.

I believe we may have started on this brief journey with the expectation that those elements / prophecies / verses found in posts #'s 194 and 195 might be discussed. Clearly, there is absolutely no consensus among the scholars on the many interpretations in Daniel. They can be as far from each other as the earth is to the moon. However, there maybe two major camps among the scholars that are still considered "today's accepted interpretations."

As a result of receiving the last reply from tttallison, I would like to ask if you would not mind going through the most important prophetic verses in Daniel and discuss our interpretations.

If so, you realize the first issue that we attempted to discuss centered around the identity of the "prince" in 9:26. Above you have my two part narrative where I offered the basis for the identity of the "prince" using the language within chapter 9 itself. We can continue that discussion or move to one that you would like to discuss... There certainly is no reason to go back to David to discuss Daniel. Thanks and let me know your thoughts.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It would be nice to bring you guys up to speed. However, the gap is a wide gulf between us. Nevertheless, I will try to teach you. Let's begin with the Davidic Kings, of which Jesus was one. When Jesus died, then Mary's son, next in line, is the new Davidic King. Jesus designated the apostle John as his successor. So, when reading Daniel, substitute the appropriate individuals into the latter-day prophecy. It is not brain surgery.

Rubbish.

 

[LTL]

Rubbish.

CRD, you are beautiful. That is exactly what I expected from you. Nevertheless, I will never give up on you.

 

[LTL]

I believe we may have started on this brief journey with the expectation that those elements / prophecies / verses found in posts #'s 194 and 195 might be discussed. Clearly, there is absolutely no consensus among the scholars on the many interpretations in Daniel. They can be as far from each other as the earth is to the moon. However, there maybe two major camps among the scholars that are still considered "today's accepted interpretations."

As a result of receiving the last reply from tttallison, I would like to ask if you would not mind going through the most important prophetic verses in Daniel and discuss our interpretations.

If so, you realize the first issue that we attempted to discuss centered around the identity of the "prince" in 9:26. Above you have my two part narrative where I offered the basis for the identity of the "prince" using the language within chapter 9 itself. We can continue that discussion or move to one that you would like to discuss... There certainly is no reason to go back to David to discuss Daniel. Thanks and let me know your thoughts.

26And after threescore and two weeks (after 62 weeks)
shall Messiah (John the Apostle)
be cut off, but not for himself (John will be stopped by the people of Jerusalem city, but not for John, but because they reject Jesus Christ whom John serves):
and the people of the prince (the people of John, remember that John presides over all the servants of the Savior; good and evil. This refers to the wicked king of the north.)
that shall come (that shall descend to Jerusalem)
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood (a flood of the wicked to Jerusalem),
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Keep in mind that John is the Davidic King who serves Jesus Christ.

 

[JustThinking]

26And after threescore and two weeks (after 62 weeks)
shall Messiah (John the Apostle)
be cut off, but not for himself (John will be stopped by the people of Jerusalem city, but not for John, but because they reject Jesus Christ whom John serves):
and the people of the prince (the people of John, remember that John presides over all the servants of the Savior; good and evil. This refers to the wicked king of the north.)
that shall come (that shall descend to Jerusalem)
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood (a flood of the wicked to Jerusalem),
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Keep in mind that John is the Davidic King who serves Jesus Christ.

Thank you but .... your are freaking me out! What are you saying? That the Messiah is John the Apostle? AND..... John will be stopped by the people of Jerusalem, but not for John....?

Are you "punking" me? Alright, you got me.... okay, let's go back to the beginning... perhaps you might want to start with verse 9:24 in Daniel and walk through these prophetic MESSIANIC verses. Thanks so much...can't wait!!!

 

[LTL]

Thank you but .... your are freaking me out! What are you saying? That the Messiah is John the Apostle? AND..... John will be stopped by the people of Jerusalem, but not for John....?

Are you "punking" me? Alright, you got me.... okay, let's go back to the beginning... perhaps you might want to start with verse 9:24 in Daniel and walk through these prophetic MESSIANIC verses. Thanks so much...can't wait!!!

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (70 weeks are determined upon the house of Judah)
and upon thy holy city (and upon Jerusalem),
to finish the transgression (to stop transgressing before the Savior),
and to make an end of sins (and to stop sinning before the Savior),
and to make reconciliation for iniquity (and to repent before the Savior),
and to bring in everlasting righteousness (and to bring in the everlasting Messiah who is John the Apostle, the servant of Jesus Christ),
and to seal up the vision and prophecy (to complete the vision and prophecy),
and to anoint the most Holy (and to anoint the holy of holies in the temple).

This verse states that the house of Judah is given 70 weeks to stop sinning and anoint the holy of holies in the temple. John is responsible for bringing this prophecy to pass. Notice the order: stop sinning and repent to bring in the servant of Jesus Christ to anoint the most holy in the temple. It is not that difficult to read. The metaphorical phrase "everlasting righteousness" is John the Apostle.

I realize this is new information to you. But try to catch the metaphorical language that the Savior and his prophets use, and then you can read the prophecy.

 

[JustThinking]

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (70 weeks are determined upon the house of Judah)
and upon thy holy city (and upon Jerusalem),
to finish the transgression (to stop transgressing before the Savior),
and to make an end of sins (and to stop sinning before the Savior),
and to make reconciliation for iniquity (and to repent before the Savior),
and to bring in everlasting righteousness (and to bring in the everlasting Messiah who is John the Apostle, the servant of Jesus Christ),
and to seal up the vision and prophecy (to complete the vision and prophecy),
and to anoint the most Holy (and to anoint the holy of holies in the temple).

This verse states that the house of Judah is given 70 weeks to stop sinning and anoint the holy of holies in the temple. John is responsible for bringing this prophecy to pass. Notice the order: stop sinning and repent to bring in the servant of Jesus Christ to anoint the most holy in the temple. It is not that difficult to read. The metaphorical phrase "everlasting righteousness" is John the Apostle.

I realize this is new information to you. But try to catch the metaphorical language that the Savior and his prophets use, and then you can read the prophecy.

I don’t usually ever ask someone on these forums their Christian denomination, but would you be willing to share yours? If not, no problem at all.

I can candidly say that I have never heard this interpretation before!

Chapter 9 is ALL about the coming Messiah and John is an apostle of Jesus.

This prophecy is written for or given to His people and His city. Only the Messiah can fulfill the 6 God given requirements identified in 9:24.
Thanks.

 

[Inquisitor]

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (70 weeks are determined upon the house of Judah)
and upon thy holy city (and upon Jerusalem),
to finish the transgression (to stop transgressing before the Savior),
and to make an end of sins (and to stop sinning before the Savior),
and to make reconciliation for iniquity (and to repent before the Savior),
and to bring in everlasting righteousness (and to bring in the everlasting Messiah who is John the Apostle, the servant of Jesus Christ),
and to seal up the vision and prophecy (to complete the vision and prophecy),
and to anoint the most Holy (and to anoint the holy of holies in the temple).

This verse states that the house of Judah is given 70 weeks to stop sinning and anoint the holy of holies in the temple. John is responsible for bringing this prophecy to pass. Notice the order: stop sinning and repent to bring in the servant of Jesus Christ to anoint the most holy in the temple. It is not that difficult to read. The metaphorical phrase "everlasting righteousness" is John the Apostle.

I realize this is new information to you. But try to catch the metaphorical language that the Savior and his prophets use, and then you can read the prophecy.

You might not have 1 Maccabees in your Bible so you may not understand Daniel 9.

When interpreting Daniel 9, particularly verses 24-27, through the lens of 1 Maccabees, the prophecy is widely seen by historical-critical scholars as a description of the Hellenistic crisis of the 2nd century BCE, focusing on the persecution of Jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the subsequent Maccabean revolt.
Daniel 9 centers on a "seventy weeks" ( years = 490 years) prophecy, which is interpreted as a timeline for cleaning the sanctuary (temple) and ending sinful rule.
The Amateur Exegete +1

The Context of Daniel 9

• The Prayer: Daniel 9 opens with Daniel praying for the end of the 70-year exile predicted by Jeremiah (Jer. 25:11-12).
• The Answer: Gabriel provides a vision showing that the "exile" or time of "desolation" is actually 70 sets of seven years (490 years).
• The Goal: The purpose is to end transgression, make an end of sins, atone for iniquity, and usher in everlasting righteousness.
  The Amateur Exegete +4

1 Maccabees and the Fulfillment
1 Maccabees provides the historical backdrop for the events predicted in Daniel 9:26-27, which are also detailed in Daniel 11.
The Amateur Exegete +1

• The "Anointed One" Cut Off (Daniel 9:26): Many scholars identify this figure with the legitimate High Priest Onias III, who was murdered around 171 BCE, as recorded in 2 Maccabees 4, paving the way for Hellenistic reforms.
• The Covenant with the Many (Daniel 9:27): This refers to 1 Maccabees 1:11–15, where "renegades" among the Jews made a covenant with the Gentiles (Antiochus IV) to adopt Greek customs and abandon the Torah.
• Sacrifice Ceases & The Abomination of Desolation (Daniel 9:27): In 167 BCE, Antiochus IV stopped the daily sacrifices in the Temple and set up a "desolating sacrilege" (a pagan altar to Zeus) in the Temple, as described in 1 Maccabees 1:54.
• The Half-Week (3.5 years): The period from the cessation of sacrifices to the purification of the Temple by Judas Maccabeus (Hanukkah) lasts roughly three and a half years, matching the "half of the week" (3.5 years) in Daniel 9:27.
  

Key Differences in Interpretation

[th]

Feature ​

[/th][th]

1 Maccabees/Historical View​

[/th][th]

Messianic/Christian View​

[/th]​

[td]"Anointed One"[/td][td]Onias III (High Priest)[/td][td]Jesus Christ[/td] [td]"Abomination"[/td][td]Zeus Altar (167 BCE)[/td][td]70 AD Temple Destruction[/td] [td]"Covenant"[/td][td]Hellenizing Jews[/td][td]The New Covenant[/td] [td]Timeline[/td][td]2nd Century BCE[/td][td]1st Century AD[/td]

Summary
Considering 1 Maccabees, Daniel 9 is a detailed, apocalyptic summary of the 2nd Century BCE crisis where a "coming ruler" (Antiochus IV) causes the temple sacrifices to cease and installs an abomination. The text promises that this "desolator" will meet his end, leading to the purification of the temple, a theme central to the Maccabean victory.

 

[LTL]

I don’t usually ever ask someone on these forums their Christian denomination, but would you be willing to share yours? If not, no problem at all.

I can candidly say that I have never heard this interpretation before!

Chapter 9 is ALL about the coming Messiah and John is an apostle of Jesus.

This prophecy is written for or given to His people and His city. Only the Messiah can fulfill the 6 God given requirements identified in 9:24.
Thanks.

I am a servant of Jesus Christ. I do not belong to any church, although I have attended many denominations over the years. Currently, I meet with a group on Zoom and discuss the metaphors and the prophecies. The reason you have not heard this interpretation is that very few can read the metaphors. The coming Messiah is John the apostle of Jesus Christ.

I realize this is hard information to hear. The main thing to remember is that John's responsibility is to Jesus Christ. John is to provide protection to the saints of God per the Davidic Covenant. That a Davidic King can sacrifice himself for his people. Such that the Savior sacrificed himself for his people and extends to righteous Davidic Kings, this promise. That the saints of God can be protected from their enemies if they follow their Davidic King and if that Davidic King follows Jesus Christ.

So how does Jesus save his people during the tribulation? Through his David King, that in Rev. 15:3 is called "Moses."

 

[LTL]

You might not have 1 Maccabees in your Bible so you may not understand Daniel 9.

When interpreting Daniel 9, particularly verses 24-27, through the lens of 1 Maccabees, the prophecy is widely seen by historical-critical scholars as a description of the Hellenistic crisis of the 2nd century BCE, focusing on the persecution of Jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the subsequent Maccabean revolt.
Daniel 9 centers on a "seventy weeks" ( years = 490 years) prophecy, which is interpreted as a timeline for cleaning the sanctuary (temple) and ending sinful rule.
The Amateur Exegete +1

The Context of Daniel 9

• The Prayer: Daniel 9 opens with Daniel praying for the end of the 70-year exile predicted by Jeremiah (Jer. 25:11-12).
• The Answer: Gabriel provides a vision showing that the "exile" or time of "desolation" is actually 70 sets of seven years (490 years).
• The Goal: The purpose is to end transgression, make an end of sins, atone for iniquity, and usher in everlasting righteousness.
  The Amateur Exegete +4

1 Maccabees and the Fulfillment
1 Maccabees provides the historical backdrop for the events predicted in Daniel 9:26-27, which are also detailed in Daniel 11.
The Amateur Exegete +1

• The "Anointed One" Cut Off (Daniel 9:26): Many scholars identify this figure with the legitimate High Priest Onias III, who was murdered around 171 BCE, as recorded in 2 Maccabees 4, paving the way for Hellenistic reforms.
• The Covenant with the Many (Daniel 9:27): This refers to 1 Maccabees 1:11–15, where "renegades" among the Jews made a covenant with the Gentiles (Antiochus IV) to adopt Greek customs and abandon the Torah.
• Sacrifice Ceases & The Abomination of Desolation (Daniel 9:27): In 167 BCE, Antiochus IV stopped the daily sacrifices in the Temple and set up a "desolating sacrilege" (a pagan altar to Zeus) in the Temple, as described in 1 Maccabees 1:54.
• The Half-Week (3.5 years): The period from the cessation of sacrifices to the purification of the Temple by Judas Maccabeus (Hanukkah) lasts roughly three and a half years, matching the "half of the week" (3.5 years) in Daniel 9:27.

Key Differences in Interpretation

[th]
Feature

[/th][th]
1 Maccabees/Historical View

[/th][th]
Messianic/Christian View

[/th]​

[td]"Anointed One"[/td][td]Onias III (High Priest)[/td][td]Jesus Christ[/td] [td]"Abomination"[/td][td]Zeus Altar (167 BCE)[/td][td]70 AD Temple Destruction[/td] [td]"Covenant"[/td][td]Hellenizing Jews[/td][td]The New Covenant[/td] [td]Timeline[/td][td]2nd Century BCE[/td][td]1st Century AD[/td]


Summary
Considering 1 Maccabees, Daniel 9 is a detailed, apocalyptic summary of the 2nd Century BCE crisis where a "coming ruler" (Antiochus IV) causes the temple sacrifices to cease and installs an abomination. The text promises that this "desolator" will meet his end, leading to the purification of the temple, a theme central to the Maccabean victory.

Prophecy has multiple applications. The one we are concerned with is the one coming up in the tribulation of our time.

 

[JustThinking]

I am a servant of Jesus Christ. I do not belong to any church, although I have attended many denominations over the years. Currently, I meet with a group on Zoom and discuss the metaphors and the prophecies. The reason you have not heard this interpretation is that very few can read the metaphors. The coming Messiah is John the apostle of Jesus Christ.

I realize this is hard information to hear. The main thing to remember is that John's responsibility is to Jesus Christ. John is to provide protection to the saints of God per the Davidic Covenant. That a Davidic King can sacrifice himself for his people. Such that the Savior sacrificed himself for his people and extends to righteous Davidic Kings, this promise. That the saints of God can be protected from their enemies if they follow their Davidic King and if that Davidic King follows Jesus Christ.

So how does Jesus save his people during the tribulation? Through his David King, that in Rev. 15:3 is called "Moses."

Thank you for sharing that! However, we do not see the Word of God the same. There is only one God and everyone else is a creature He created. One God, One Messiah, One Savior, One Creator and He is our Lord Jesus. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The coming Messiah is John the apostle of Jesus Christ.

You really are a hereric

 

[LTL]

Thank you for sharing that! However, we do not see the Word of God the same. There is only one God and everyone else is a creature He created. One God, One Messiah, One Savior, One Creator and He is our Lord Jesus. Thanks for your thoughts.

Your comment does not explain the difference between our viewpoints. There is the Savior Jesus Christ, and he is the God of our lives; the eternal Almighty. And secondly, there are his servants, one being the "Moses" of Rev. 15:3. Are you saying that God can not have servants? That he can not call them special? As in kings (Rev. 17:14)? Or Messiah? If the Savior Jesus Christ wants to call his special servant a Messiah, he can. Jesus appoints whomever he chooses. Or is God limited by our understanding of scripture, as you suggest?

 

[LTL]

You really are a hereric

CRD, we have been down this road before.
Jesus Christ is God Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
John the beloved is the servant of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:9).
Jesus gave John the keys over death and hell (Rev. 1:18), making John the foretold Messiah. Can you not see this?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

CRD, we have been down this road before.
Jesus Christ is God Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
John the beloved is the servant of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:9).
Jesus gave John the keys over death and hell (Rev. 1:18), making John the foretold Messiah. Can you not see this?

Total heretic and blasphemer.

 

[LTL]

Total heretic and blasphemer.

Funny, what you have said is what the Jews said about Jesus.
To recap:
Jesus is God Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
John is a servant of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:9).
Both Jesus and John are Messiahs.
Because they provide a special service to mankind.
Jesus, the eternal redeemer, atones for the sins of his people. Thereby providing eternal salvation to the saints of God.
John, a Davidic King, exercises the terms of the Davidic Covenant. Thereby providing temporal salvation to the saints of God living under his leadership.
Do you suppose that Abraham Lincoln was not a savior to the United States, having saved the Union of States? Or that a ship's Captain, preventing a wreck, is not a savior to his shipmates? We have many saviors throughout our lives. However, we have only one eternal Savior. And he has many temporal saviors for us in our lives. One of these is John the Apostle, who functions as a latter-day Messiah as shown in scripture.
Are you blind to this?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Funny, what you have said is what the Jews said about Jesus.
To recap:
Jesus is God Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
John is a servant of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:9).
Both Jesus and John are Messiahs.
Because they provide a special service to mankind.
Jesus, the eternal redeemer, atones for the sins of his people. Thereby providing eternal salvation to the saints of God.
John, a Davidic King, exercises the terms of the Davidic Covenant. Thereby providing temporal salvation to the saints of God living under his leadership.
Do you suppose that Abraham Lincoln was not a savior to the United States, having saved the Union of States? Or that a ship's Captain, preventing a wreck, is not a savior to his shipmates? We have many saviors throughout our lives. However, we have only one eternal Savior. And he has many temporal saviors for us in our lives. One of these is John the Apostle, who functions as a latter-day Messiah as shown in scripture.
Are you blind to this?

If you don;t want to be called a heretic and blasphemer, then you need to be more careful with your language. Jesus is the messiah (anointed). John was anointed and of the messiah, but he was not Christ. Nor was he a Davidic king operating under the terms of the Davidic covenant; he probably wasn't even of the tribe of Judah; that was to Christ alone. John was/is a king in and through Christ, not through David. And, no, there are no saviors besides Christ. IMO your use of that term for anyone but Christ is to be purposely provocative.