False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[Journey_man]

Why can you add your words, but I cannot?

God's "common grace" signifies His desire for all humanity to be saved.

Re "God does not enable all sinners to have saving faith and repent. Instead, Gods Word reveals that saving grace is special, not universal.": Those are your words. Ditto re "Salvation is not dependent on the cooperation of the unbeliever with God...."

Re "saving faith satisfies God's condition for becoming elect" and "election causes faith": The first view is correct.

Re "You said that you have been a truthseeker all of your life and went against your Baptist denomination's teaching of OSAS",
but Gods Word reveals in Romans 3:10: “There is none righteous, no, not one...": Correct, I did not go against that teaching.

Re "11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” This needs to be harmonized with Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6.

Re "God is the truth, His Word reveals that none seek after Him, but as usual you reject what God said and claim that you have been seeking the truth all of your life.": No, as usual you reject context and seek straw men, such as ignoring that 2Thes. 2:13 mentions belief/faith.

Re "You claim that John 15:16 was spoken to the Twelve. By this I assume you're claiming that the gospel message was only meant for the Apostles.": No, your assumption is another straw man. I merely stated the obvious: Jesus chose the Twelve to be his special disciples/apostles.

Re "You said that God chooses those who repent and seek Him (Matt. 7:7, Heb. 11:6). But Gods Word reveals that He chose His elect before they were born. So how can a non existent person, "repent and seek Him"?: GW says what I cited, and your question also applies to your misinterpretation that impugns God's love for humanity.

Over...

I did say that "Salvation is not dependent on the cooperation of the unbeliever with God....". But this doesn't mean I agree with your "universalism", where God will save every single person who ever lived, regardless of who they are or what they believe. Such nonsense makes a mockery of Christs atonement.

I was stating that, "salvation is not dependant on anything a man does, instead it's absolutely dependant on what God does.

I have previously corrected your unbiblical view, that God desires to save every single person. You didn't find any fault in my response, but here you are parroting the same line again. How about you go back and read my correction, before we go around this merry-go-round again.
Re "You said that you have been a truthseeker all of your life and went against your Baptist denomination's teaching of OSAS",
but Gods Word reveals in Romans 3:10: “There is none righteous, no, not one...": Correct, I did not go against that teaching. Incorrect, you did go against His teaching, "He said there are none who seek", you said "I have been seeking all my life". See you can't even admit to the bleeding obvious, contradiction.

You can't claim that Romans 3:10 needs to harmonise with Matthew 7:7 Romans 3:10 states that "there are none who seek". Matt 7:7 doesn't support your view because the Lord Jesus never claimed that any unbeliever is "seeking". So your strawman falls over right there.

I'm not sure if you Minister ever taught you that the reprobate never seek after the truth, only the regenerated (elect of God) seek the truth because we are led by the Holy Spirit, while the unbelievers are led by their sin and Satan, so they will never seek the truth because it's foolishness to them.

You still haven't revealed what you believe about John 15:16 I believe it applies to all believers in every age. And not only to the 12 Disciples, as you believe.

 

[GWH]

I did say that "Salvation is not dependent on the cooperation of the unbeliever with God....". But this doesn't mean I agree with your "universalism", where God will save every single person who ever lived, regardless of who they are or what they believe. Such nonsense makes a mockery of Christs atonement.

I was stating that, "salvation is not dependant on anything a man does, instead it's absolutely dependant on what God does.

I have previously corrected your unbiblical view, that God desires to save every single person. You didn't find any fault in my response, but here you are parroting the same line again. How about you go back and read my correction, before we go around this merry-go-round again.
Re "You said that you have been a truthseeker all of your life and went against your Baptist denomination's teaching of OSAS",
but Gods Word reveals in Romans 3:10: “There is none righteous, no, not one...": Correct, I did not go against that teaching. Incorrect, you did go against His teaching, "He said there are none who seek", you said "I have been seeking all my life". See you can't even admit to the bleeding obvious, contradiction.

You can't claim that Romans 3:10 needs to harmonise with Matthew 7:7 Romans 3:10 states that "there are none who seek". Matt 7:7 doesn't support your view because the Lord Jesus never claimed that any unbeliever is "seeking". So your strawman falls over right there.

I'm not sure if you Minister ever taught you that the reprobate never seek after the truth, only the regenerated (elect of God) seek the truth because we are led by the Holy Spirit, while the unbelievers are led by their sin and Satan, so they will never seek the truth because it's foolishness to them.

You still haven't revealed what you believe about John 15:16 I believe it applies to all believers in every age. And not only to the 12 Disciples, as you believe.

The astute will note that you mock a straw man, because I did not advocate universalism.
That God desires to save every sinner is Paul's teaching (1Tim. 2:3-4), which is part of the Bible.
I see you seek to make Rom. 3:10 contradict Matt. 7:7 (claiming that Jesus did not command unbelievers
to seek), whereas I harmonize them by saying the reason to seek salvation is because we are sinners.
Finally, you contradict yourself by saying that I have not revealed what I believe about John 15:16 and then
saying that I believe it applies to the Twelve disciples.

 

[Journey_man]

The astute will note that you mock a straw man, because I did not advocate universalism.
That God desires to save every sinner is Paul's teaching (1Tim. 2:3-4), which is part of the Bible.
I see you seek to make Rom. 3:10 contradict Matt. 7:7 (claiming that Jesus did not command unbelievers
to seek), whereas I harmonize them by saying the reason to seek salvation is because we are sinners.
Finally, you contradict yourself by saying that I have not revealed what I believe about John 15:16 and then
saying that I believe it applies to the Twelve disciples.

Paul never taught that "God desires to save every single sinner" in 1 Tim 2:3-4 We know your interpretation of this passage of scripture cannot be correct, as it contradicts what God says about the matter in other places.

1 Timothy 2:3-4—which says God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"—is speaking about God’s desire for the salvation of all types or all kinds of people (kings, commoners, all nations) rather than every single individual. It highlights that God does not limit salvation to one group (like the Jews) and that we should pray for all, as anyone could be elect.

If you have the gift of discernment, then you will distinguish between God’s revealed will (His desire for repentance and righteousness) and His secret/sovereign decree (whom He has chosen to save). While God finds pleasure in offering salvation to all, this does not contradict His sovereign decree that only the elect will be saved.
God does not desire to save every single person without exception, as that would mean He fails to get what He wants, given that scripture indicates not all are saved.
Your attempt to harmonise Romans 3:10 and Matt 7:7 is futile because your claim that the Lord Jesus was commanding unbelievers to seek God, is untrue. Why would God command those, whom He said were dead in their sin, to seek Him.

Gods Word reveals that belief is impossible for unbelievers without divine intervention or spiritual rebirth, emphasizing the necessity of God drawing them or opening their hearts. Key verses include John 6:44 ("No one can come to me unless the Father... draws him") and 1 Corinthians 2:14, which explains that the "natural person" cannot accept spiritual things.

Romans 3:10-12 is proof that fallen humanity is completely incapable of initiating a search for God, choosing righteousness, or doing spiritual good on their own. It highlights that salvation is entirely a work of divine grace, not human effort.

Finally I did not contradict myself, by concluding that to your interpretation of John 15:16 is unbiblical because it doesn't only apply to the 12 apostles/disciples, but it applies to every believer in every age and generation.

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you".

 

[GWH]

Paul never taught that "God desires to save every single sinner" in 1 Tim 2:3-4 We know your interpretation of this passage of scripture cannot be correct, as it contradicts what God says about the matter in other places.

1 Timothy 2:3-4—which says God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"—is speaking about God’s desire for the salvation of all types or all kinds of people (kings, commoners, all nations) rather than every single individual. It highlights that God does not limit salvation to one group (like the Jews) and that we should pray for all, as anyone could be elect.

If you have the gift of discernment, then you will distinguish between God’s revealed will (His desire for repentance and righteousness) and His secret/sovereign decree (whom He has chosen to save). While God finds pleasure in offering salvation to all, this does not contradict His sovereign decree that only the elect will be saved.
God does not desire to save every single person without exception, as that would mean He fails to get what He wants, given that scripture indicates not all are saved.
Your attempt to harmonise Romans 3:10 and Matt 7:7 is futile because your claim that the Lord Jesus was commanding unbelievers to seek God, is untrue. Why would God command those, whom He said were dead in their sin, to seek Him.

Gods Word reveals that belief is impossible for unbelievers without divine intervention or spiritual rebirth, emphasizing the necessity of God drawing them or opening their hearts. Key verses include John 6:44 ("No one can come to me unless the Father... draws him") and 1 Corinthians 2:14, which explains that the "natural person" cannot accept spiritual things.

Romans 3:10-12 is proof that fallen humanity is completely incapable of initiating a search for God, choosing righteousness, or doing spiritual good on their own. It highlights that salvation is entirely a work of divine grace, not human effort.

Finally I did not contradict myself, by concluding that to your interpretation of John 15:16 is unbiblical because it doesn't only apply to the 12 apostles/disciples, but it applies to every believer in every age and generation.

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you".

No, you opine that 1Tim. 2:3-4 refers to types of people in order that you can claim God does not love every single individual.
I suppose you have the same perverse opinion regarding favoritism (Rom. 2:11): God does not show favoritism because He elects some of every kind of people, although this means He effectively hates nonelect humanity. That was Augustine of Hippos view that Tulipists adopt, thereby demeaning divine love.

The discernment tulipists need in order to avoid that heresy is between God's intentional and permissive wills: Although God desires for everyone to become elect, He allows sinners to exercise their MFW by rejecting His call to believe the Gospel of salvation (Matt. 13:14-15, 23:37). Again, God/Christ commands all unbelievers to seek His salvation because He loves them all (John 3:16); He loves His enemies (Matt. 5:40&44, Rom. 5:6-8).

Harmonizing GW is crucial rather than futile. John 6:44 must be connected with John 12:32. Romans 3:10-12 must be connected with Rom. 3:21-5:1 & 6:23.

I already stated that John 15:16 refers to the choosing of the Twelve to be Jesus' Apostles, so now I will explain 1Cor. 2:14, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:

1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” Using Mag’s favorite terminology, God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe.

1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”. This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor. 1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).

 

[Journey_man]

No, you opine that 1Tim. 2:3-4 refers to types of people in order that you can claim God does not love every single individual.
I suppose you have the same perverse opinion regarding favoritism (Rom. 2:11): God does not show favoritism because He elects some of every kind of people, although this means He effectively hates nonelect humanity. That was Augustine of Hippos view that Tulipists adopt, thereby demeaning divine love.

The discernment tulipists need in order to avoid that heresy is between God's intentional and permissive wills: Although God desires for everyone to become elect, He allows sinners to exercise their MFW by rejecting His call to believe the Gospel of salvation (Matt. 13:14-15, 23:37). Again, God/Christ commands all unbelievers to seek His salvation because He loves them all (John 3:16); He loves His enemies (Matt. 5:40&44, Rom. 5:6-8).

Harmonizing GW is crucial rather than futile. John 6:44 must be connected with John 12:32. Romans 3:10-12 must be connected with Rom. 3:21-5:1 & 6:23.

I already stated that John 15:16 refers to the choosing of the Twelve to be Jesus' Apostles, so now I will explain 1Cor. 2:14, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:

1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” Using Mag’s favorite terminology, God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe.

1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”. This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor. 1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).

Your interpretation of 1 Tim 2:3-4 makes no sense. If God wanted to save everyone, and then failed to do so, He would not be almighty God. Almighty God cannot fail in anything He sets out to do. You have a low view of God.

Have you ever wondered why the majority of mankind will be cast into the lake of fire. Why would God do that to those He tried to save. You interpretation doesn't make any sense, never mind Augustine. Your narrative is a self defeating contradiction.

The "free will, free choice" theory is not supported by any scripture. The Gnostics invented that theory.
You don't get to dictate which verses of scripture, should be harmonised. Gods Word speaks for itself. God doesn't need you to decide what He's trying to say.

You said, "In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:"

The truth is, in order to understand the scripture correctly, one must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He reveals the truth to Gods elect. So the only requirement to understand Gods Word, is be one of those God choose for salvation before time began.

You can preach Christ crucified, until you turn blue in the face, but only those God chose will believe. The rest will never believe, because it's foolishness to them.

 

[GWH]

Your interpretation of 1 Tim 2:3-4 makes no sense. If God wanted to save everyone, and then failed to do so, He would not be almighty God. Almighty God cannot fail in anything He sets out to do. You have a low view of God.

Have you ever wondered why the majority of mankind will be cast into the lake of fire. Why would God do that to those He tried to save. You interpretation doesn't make any sense, never mind Augustine. Your narrative is a self defeating contradiction.

The "free will, free choice" theory is not supported by any scripture. The Gnostics invented that theory.
You don't get to dictate which verses of scripture, should be harmonised. Gods Word speaks for itself. God doesn't need you to decide what He's trying to say.

You said, "In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:"

The truth is, in order to understand the scripture correctly, one must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He reveals the truth to Gods elect. So the only requirement to understand Gods Word, is be one of those God choose for salvation before time began.

You can preach Christ crucified, until you turn blue in the face, but only those God chose will believe. The rest will never believe, because it's foolishness to them.

No, you fail to understand that God's will includes enabling human souls to have MFW. Anyone can create robots.
My view understands how God justly allows unrepentant sinners to reap the result of their choice in hell,
whereas yours apparently does not, since you did not answer your own question.
Scripture supporting MFW includes Deut. 30:19 and Matt. 23:37, which apparently you ignore.
I encourage you to be filled with the HS so you will understand these and similar Scriptures.
Yes, per your perverted view it is pointless to preach about Christ's atonement.

 

[Journey_man]

No, you fail to understand that God's will includes enabling human souls to have MFW. Anyone can create robots.
My view understands how God justly allows unrepentant sinners to reap the result of their choice in hell,
whereas yours apparently does not, since you did not answer your own question.
Scripture supporting MFW includes Deut. 30:19 and Matt. 23:37, which apparently you ignore.
I encourage you to be filled with the HS so you will understand these and similar Scriptures.
Yes, per your perverted view it is pointless to preach about Christ's atonement.

You fail to understand that God's ultimate will is not to save every single person without exception. Instead, God sovereignly wills to save a specific group, known as the elect, while displaying His justice through the punishment of others (reprobate), ultimately for His glory.

In Deuteronomy 30:19—"I have set before you life and death... choose life"— should be interpreted within the context of covenantal responsibility rather than libertarian free will. It's a genuine command for moral responsibility, where the enabling grace to choose life is provided only to the elect.
While humanity is in bondage to sin (total depravity), God still legitimately commands obedience. The command reveals humanity's duty, not necessarily their ability to fulfill it without grace.
Deuteronomy 30:6 ("the Lord your God will circumcise your heart") sets the stage for 30:19. The enabling to "choose life" is a result of God's prior action in changing the heart.

God's sovereignty over human choices is compatible with human responsibility. Humans choose what they desire, and to choose life is to trust in God's promises, enabled by him.
The choice represents the terms of the covenant with Israel (blessing vs. curses). It is a call to covenant faithfulness—to love and obey God rather than turning to idols.
We need to distinguish between God's desire for all to be saved (in a general sense of compassion) and His sovereign, eternal decree (which is always accomplished).

Matthew 23:37 ("...how often I would have gathered your children together... and you were not willing!") this verse makes the distinction between God’s revealed will (or desire) and His sovereign decree. Jesus, in His human ministry, expresses sincere longing for salvation, while simultaneously, the people's stubborn refusal displays human responsibility.

God has a revealed, preceptive will (desiring repentance) and a sovereign, secret decree (ordaining events). The text shows Jesus' genuine human sorrow over the sinners' rebellion, which He allows according to His higher plan. We need to distinguish between "Jerusalem" (interpreted as the apostate religious leaders, the scribes, and Pharisees) and the "children" (the individuals or the collective people they hindered).

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

A hundred fifty years ago, when the work week was often 12-hour days, 6 days a week, there were lots of average people who had the time to learn Greek and Latin, they were called "educated", many also learned Hebrew. And if you study the history of theology, there are huge cases of doctrines and understandings of verses recorded. A verse suddenly goes from meaning one thing to meaning something totally different, doctrines go from being clearly spelled out in scripture to being clearly denied in scripture, and that is even within the same denominational tradition. Unless one can explain the drastic shifts, one cannot truthfully claim to have proper insight. And a hint, some of the drastic shifts coincide with political shifts, it became politically expedient to proclaim a different message than was previously pronounced, and sometimes the new message is the one that is preserved to this day.

You don't really need to learn the biblical ancient languages. You just have to listen to the Holy Spirit.

 

[GWH]

You fail to understand that God's ultimate will is not to save every single person without exception. Instead, God sovereignly wills to save a specific group, known as the elect, while displaying His justice through the punishment of others (reprobate), ultimately for His glory.

In Deuteronomy 30:19—"I have set before you life and death... choose life"— should be interpreted within the context of covenantal responsibility rather than libertarian free will. It's a genuine command for moral responsibility, where the enabling grace to choose life is provided only to the elect.
While humanity is in bondage to sin (total depravity), God still legitimately commands obedience. The command reveals humanity's duty, not necessarily their ability to fulfill it without grace.
Deuteronomy 30:6 ("the Lord your God will circumcise your heart") sets the stage for 30:19. The enabling to "choose life" is a result of God's prior action in changing the heart.

God's sovereignty over human choices is compatible with human responsibility. Humans choose what they desire, and to choose life is to trust in God's promises, enabled by him.
The choice represents the terms of the covenant with Israel (blessing vs. curses). It is a call to covenant faithfulness—to love and obey God rather than turning to idols.
We need to distinguish between God's desire for all to be saved (in a general sense of compassion) and His sovereign, eternal decree (which is always accomplished).

Matthew 23:37 ("...how often I would have gathered your children together... and you were not willing!") this verse makes the distinction between God’s revealed will (or desire) and His sovereign decree. Jesus, in His human ministry, expresses sincere longing for salvation, while simultaneously, the people's stubborn refusal displays human responsibility.

God has a revealed, preceptive will (desiring repentance) and a sovereign, secret decree (ordaining events). The text shows Jesus' genuine human sorrow over the sinners' rebellion, which He allows according to His higher plan. We need to distinguish between "Jerusalem" (interpreted as the apostate religious leaders, the scribes, and Pharisees) and the "children" (the individuals or the collective people they hindered).

You should stop kicking against the goad by coming up with weak arguments that do not address what I said, which was this:

You fail to understand that God's will includes enabling human souls to have MFW, which means the ability to ignore GW as you illustrate.

My harmonized view understands how God justly allows unrepentant sinners to reap the result of their choice in hell, whereas yours does not, since DT. 30:19 obviously refers to individuals rather than to groups, and MT 23:37 obviously applies to all sinners rather than only to the Jewish covenant.

Similarly, citing God's sovereignty does not explain how TULIP does not demean divine love ("compassion") and justness toward all.

Accepting the Gospel of Christ's atonement will enable you to be filled with the HS so you will understand GW and the need to preach about salvation to all.

 

[rewriter]

You don't really need to learn the biblical ancient languages. You just have to listen to the Holy Spirit.

True, as long as you can be certain that you are listening to the Holy Spirit. I am aware of many Christian churches that claim to be following the Holy Spirit, yet the spirit they follow is anything but holy. How do you distinguish the Holy Spirit from any other spirit as many spirits can deceive unwary Christians no matter what said Christians claim. In fact, I have heard some Christians proclaim that the guidance of the Holy Spirit feels exactly like what occurs when someone is in the presence of the demonic, so please be specific.

 

[GWH]

True, as long as you can be certain that you are listening to the Holy Spirit. I am aware of many Christian churches that claim to be following the Holy Spirit, yet the spirit they follow is anything but holy. How do you distinguish the Holy Spirit from any other spirit as many spirits can deceive unwary Christians no matter what said Christians claim. In fact, I have heard some Christians proclaim that the guidance of the Holy Spirit feels exactly like what occurs when someone is in the presence of the demonic, so please be specific.

We can only be confident of cooperating with the HS by knowing GW.
Thus, we should be grateful for translators.

 

[rewriter]

We can only be confident of cooperating with the HS by knowing GW.
Thus, we should be grateful for translators.

True, but the comment I was responding to implied that we do not need to know the ancient languages. If no one knows the ancient languages, who will translate them for us? Those who bother to learn the ancient languages can also double check how the translators have chosen to translate specific, troublesome passages, possibly distorting the message in the process. I know of a few passages that rarely get translated without distortion because they translate them based on tradition rather than the ancient grammar.

 

[GWH]

True, but the comment I was responding to implied that we do not need to know the ancient languages. If no one knows the ancient languages, who will translate them for us? Those who bother to learn the ancient languages can also double check how the translators have chosen to translate specific, troublesome passages, possibly distorting the message in the process. I know of a few passages that rarely get translated without distortion because they translate them based on tradition rather than the ancient grammar.

I know what you responded to and disagree with that implication.
And I am grateful for y'all who know the ancient languages.

I took Spanish for four years in HS and college and took NT Greek and OT Hebrew while attending seminary,
but the only foreign language I could speak somewhat was German when I lived there and studied it for a year.
I do not have the gift of tongues!

 

[rewriter]

I know what you responded to and disagree with that implication.
And I am grateful for y'all who know the ancient languages.

I took Spanish for four years in HS and college and took NT Greek and OT Hebrew while attending seminary,
but the only foreign language I could speak somewhat was German when I lived there and studied it for a year.
I do not have the gift of tongues!

The gift of tongues does not always come with comprehension nor with an understanding of grammar. I sometimes wish that it did. I have four years of French, three years of German as well as biblical Greek and Hebrew. In a pinch though I have various contacts who are much better in languages than I am. At least one translates between Greek and Aramaic, without going through English, I suspect a couple others are also capable, but they have never admitted it, and one was one of the early scholars working on the DSS.

 

[GWH]

The gift of tongues does not always come with comprehension nor with an understanding of grammar. I sometimes wish that it did. I have four years of French, three years of German as well as biblical Greek and Hebrew. In a pinch though I have various contacts who are much better in languages than I am. At least one translates between Greek and Aramaic, without going through English, I suspect a couple others are also capable, but they have never admitted it, and one was one of the early scholars working on the DSS.

Well, tongues is useless without comprehension, although I admit to understanding what our baby's babbling meant sometimes.

 

[TruthDefender]

True, but the comment I was responding to implied that we do not need to know the ancient languages. If no one knows the ancient languages, who will translate them for us? Those who bother to learn the ancient languages can also double check how the translators have chosen to translate specific, troublesome passages, possibly distorting the message in the process. I know of a few passages that rarely get translated without distortion because they translate them based on tradition rather than the ancient grammar.

True, but you can’t expect every single saint to learn 1st century languages; it’s hard enough to learn modern day languages let alone dead languages.

If a few people can learn, so be it. This is enough. Good for you, if you know these dead languages! May God guide you in being as precise as possible.

Where do you think the discrepancies are? Please give passages.

 

[Journey_man]

You should stop kicking against the goad by coming up with weak arguments that do not address what I said, which was this:

You fail to understand that God's will includes enabling human souls to have MFW, which means the ability to ignore GW as you illustrate.

My harmonized view understands how God justly allows unrepentant sinners to reap the result of their choice in hell, whereas yours does not, since DT. 30:19 obviously refers to individuals rather than to groups, and MT 23:37 obviously applies to all sinners rather than only to the Jewish covenant.

Similarly, citing God's sovereignty does not explain how TULIP does not demean divine love ("compassion") and justness toward all.

Accepting the Gospel of Christ's atonement will enable you to be filled with the HS so you will understand GW and the need to preach about salvation to all.

You fail to understand that Gods will is to save His elect only, you will never find anything in the Bible to support your theory that God is trying to save everyone. If God is trying to save everyone and fails to do so, then He is not the God of the Bible, because the true God never fails to accomplish anything He sets out to achieve.

I'm not sure why you choose to reject what God's Word plainly reveals. You ignore all of the scriptures that reveal that fallen man has no free will, because he is in bondage to his sin and Satan. I'm not going to list the 120 Bible verses which confirm this fact, because I get the sense that you're not interested in the truth of the matter, as it exposes your denomination's erroneous interpretation of the gospel.

I'm sure you've read the entire Bible, and you would have come across all of those verses so it's not a matter of being unaware of them. Possessing the correct interpretation and understanding God Word, doesn't come with age or the amount of time spent studying and learning. God only reveals the truth to His elect.

Gods Word reveals this sobering truth in; 2 Timothy 3:7, which says: "always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth". This verse describes people like you, who accumulate information but never grasp the core gospel truth, often because their desires hinder them from applying it to their lives.

 

[GWH]

You fail to understand that Gods will is to save His elect only, you will never find anything in the Bible to support your theory that God is trying to save everyone. If God is trying to save everyone and fails to do so, then He is not the God of the Bible, because the true God never fails to accomplish anything He sets out to achieve.

I'm not sure why you choose to reject what God's Word plainly reveals. You ignore all of the scriptures that reveal that fallen man has no free will, because he is in bondage to his sin and Satan. I'm not going to list the 120 Bible verses which confirm this fact, because I get the sense that you're not interested in the truth of the matter, as it exposes your denomination's erroneous interpretation of the gospel.

I'm sure you've read the entire Bible, and you would have come across all of those verses so it's not a matter of being unaware of them. Possessing the correct interpretation and understanding God Word, doesn't come with age or the amount of time spent studying and learning. God only reveals the truth to His elect.

Gods Word reveals this sobering truth in; 2 Timothy 3:7, which says: "always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth". This verse describes people like you, who accumulate information but never grasp the core gospel truth, often because their desires hinder them from applying it to their lives.

Apparently you fail to understand Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:16, Acts 1:8, 27:16-18, 28:28, Rom. 3:21-26, 10:9-13, 16:25-27, Gal. 3:6-9&14, and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

 

[rewriter]

You fail to understand that Gods will is to save His elect only, you will never find anything in the Bible to support your theory that God is trying to save everyone. If God is trying to save everyone and fails to do so, then He is not the God of the Bible, because the true God never fails to accomplish anything He sets out to achieve.

I'm not sure why you choose to reject what God's Word plainly reveals. You ignore all of the scriptures that reveal that fallen man has no free will, because he is in bondage to his sin and Satan. I'm not going to list the 120 Bible verses which confirm this fact, because I get the sense that you're not interested in the truth of the matter, as it exposes your denomination's erroneous interpretation of the gospel.

I'm sure you've read the entire Bible, and you would have come across all of those verses so it's not a matter of being unaware of them. Possessing the correct interpretation and understanding God Word, doesn't come with age or the amount of time spent studying and learning. God only reveals the truth to His elect.

Gods Word reveals this sobering truth in; 2 Timothy 3:7, which says: "always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth". This verse describes people like you, who accumulate information but never grasp the core gospel truth, often because their desires hinder them from applying it to their lives.

Let me see, God is so loving that He does not want to save all the people He created? That makes it rather hard to claim that God is love, in fact it could be seen as placing God's honor ahead of His love, yet that was not proposed until the 12th or 13th century, so it is not biblical.

 

[NeutralZone]

Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Here we see that God cannot do evil, because He can't even be tempted with evil. Nor does He tempt anyone to do evil. Therefore, Is 45:7 must be read and taught in context of James 1:13, that the God of the Bible cannot be an evil Creator creating and doing evil. Such as the pagan God Moloch.

If God cannot be tempted with evil, as you correctly stated in your Opening Post aka OP, how is it that Jesus (the son) was tempted by Satan the Devil? In Temptation #1, Satan tempted Jesus to abuse his power by turning stones into bread in order for Jesus to satisfy his physical hunger because he hadn't eaten 40 days.

Matthew 4:1 to 3 -- King James Bible
"1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread."


At Temptation #2, Satan the Devil tempted Jesus by urging him to jump from the top of a high temple, to see if the angels would respond by rescuing Jesus.

Matthew 4:5 to 6 -- King James Bible
"5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."


Finally, at Temptation #3, Satan the Devil tempted Jesus by offering him control over the entire world if Jesus would worship Satan.


Matthew 4:8 to 9 -- King James Bible
"8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."


Jesus Christ, according to the Trinity doctrine, is supposed to also be God; remember? Yet, he was being tempted by the Devil.