Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Its axis is Christ. Jesus did not need to minister a full 2,520 literal days (seven years of 360 days). The prophecy required that in the midst of the week the Messiah would be cut off. That is precisely what occurred. The covenant was confirmed

But it says that he would confirm the covenant for a period of one week, not one half of one week.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In the Book of Revelation Chapter 7, Manasses is filling the void left by calling Dan to function as judges for the whole of Israel. Dan has that birthright. Thus Levi is returned to the whole, and Dan is called to serve.

Dan received no birthright; only Ephraim did. What you are referring to is a prophecy uttered by Jacob

 

[Mem]

They will magnify the Messiah. And when they conclude, redemption’s great cycle will stand complete—exactly as written.

The Greatest Epic ever written.

 

[LTL]

Dan received no birthright; only Ephraim did. What you are referring to is a prophecy uttered by Jacob

Genesis 49:1
1And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

Genesis 49:16-18: "
16Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
17Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
18I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.

Okay, it is a last-days prophecy. I am using the KJV. This may be a little different in another version.

Dan, one of the tribes, in the last days, is a judge in Israel. This applies to Rev. 7:4-8.

 

[JustThinking]

But it says that he would confirm the covenant for a period of one week, not one half of

I will consider what you say. FWIW, I do not believe the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 are the 12 tribes of natural israel for several reasons, but primarily because those are not the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Joseph and Levi were not part of the 12 tribes under the old covenant, and Ephraim and Dan are missing. Therefore, I believe the 12 tribes in Revelation 7 are the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel, which has nothing to do with the flesh, and everything to do with God's choice.

Very nice comment and thank you. Would you consider the following:

I do agree that Revelation 7 is not a standard Old Testament tribal list. Dan is missing, Ephraim is not named, Joseph is included, Levi is included, and Judah is placed first. So I agree that John is doing something more than giving a simple genealogical census of national Israel.

But I would still not say the 144,000 have nothing to do with Israel according to the flesh. A symbolic tribal list does not necessarily erase Israel; it may show Israel being presented in a restored, purified, and covenantal form. In other words, Revelation 7 may not be describing Israel merely by bloodline, but neither does that automatically mean it has no connection to Israel at all. Scripture often takes literal people and presents them in symbolic or covenantal form. The unusual tribal arrangement may be showing God’s chosen remnant of Israel under spiritual restoration, not ordinary tribal bookkeeping.

The missing tribe of Dan, the omission of Ephraim’s name, the inclusion of Joseph and Levi, and the priority of Judah all seem purposeful. They may indicate that this is Israel viewed through God’s redemptive purpose, not simply Israel according to old covenant land allotments. So I agree the list is spiritual and covenantal. But I would not say it has “nothing to do with the flesh” in the sense of having no connection to Israel. It may be better to say Revelation 7 presents Israel not as a natural nation in ordinary tribal order, but as a divinely sealed covenant remnant chosen and arranged by God.

I believe that God will do exactly what He did to Paul after the cross, He will give His people a "Damascus" like experience where they will recognize the One they have pierced. This will cause them to go out and preach as Paul did with clarity and purity in the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus for 3.5 years. This will fulfill their 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle time and bring in the Messiah. And I am sure you can imagine just how the world - especially the Christian world will react to Jews preaching Jesus!!! The entire Christian world will immediately see just how corrupt the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus has been preached for the past 1500 years. The most powerful Christian institutions will not receive this lightly and I believe these 3.5 final years represents the Great Tribulation period when we will find father against son, mother against daughter, etc. It will not be a pleasant time at all.

 

[JustThinking]

But it says that he would confirm the covenant for a period of one week, not one half of one week.

You are certainly correct but please consider the following: Here is another brief carve out discussing the "One Week" phrase found in the chapter 9:27 commentary.


One Week

The phrase “one week” in Daniel 9:27 stands at the center of longstanding interpretive debate. Some theological systems separate this final week from the preceding sixty-nine and project it into the distant future, constructing a seven-year tribulation governed by a future antichrist figure. This approach—first articulated during the Counter-Reformation and later developed within modern dispensationalism—introduces a chronological gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks. Yet the text itself gives no indication of such a pause.

Daniel presents the seventy weeks as a unified prophetic period—seventy sevens, or 490 years—decreed upon Daniel’s people and holy city (Daniel 9:24). The progression is sequential and uninterrupted: decree, rebuilding, Messiah’s arrival after sixty-nine weeks, Messiah cut off, covenant confirmed. The seventieth week is not detached from the sixty-nine; it is their culmination. The Hebrew construction reinforces this continuity. The text simply reads:

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many — one week.”​

There is no explicit preposition before “one week.” Hebrew frequently expresses duration without inserting a word equivalent to the English “for.” As a result, the phrase may be translated “for one week,” “during one week,” or “within one week.” The emphasis is temporal—it identifies the span in which the covenant is strengthened. It does not describe a negotiated treaty lasting seven years, but a covenant confirmed within the final segment of the prophetic timeline.

This grammatical observation aligns naturally with the structure already established in the chapter. The final week is the last division of the seventy. It does not stand apart from them; it completes them. Within this final week:

The Messiah appears and begins His public ministry (27 AD).​

​

In the midst of the week—after three and a half years—He is “cut off” (30/31 AD), bringing sacrifice and offering to their appointed fulfillment (Daniel 9:27; Hebrews 10:10–12).​

​

The remaining three and a half years extend to 34 AD, completing the seventy weeks, during which the gospel is proclaimed primarily to Israel before the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7–8).​

The week is therefore not a suspended future event awaiting fulfillment. It is the climactic moment of redemptive history—the divinely appointed window in which the Messiah arrives, ministers, is cut off, and confirms the covenant. To remove the seventieth week from the seventy fractures the very structure the prophecy carefully builds. Daniel does not suggest a parenthesis. He reveals a completion. And this final week was no ordinary span of years. It was a week set apart for the Messiah Himself. It was the sacred interval in which He would fulfill the six redemptive objectives of Daniel 9:24—to finish transgression, make an end of sins, make reconciliation for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal vision and prophecy, and anoint the Most Holy.

In the sanctuary pattern woven throughout Scripture, this week represents the restoration of what had long been missing—the true Ark of the Covenant. Not a wooden chest overlaid with gold, but the living presence of God in the Son. In Christ, mercy and law meet again. The covenant is no longer carried in a chamber; it is embodied in the Messiah who stands at the center of history. The seventieth week is not merely chronological. It is covenantal. It is the appointed moment when God restores His dwelling among His people through the One who is Himself the mercy seat.

The Strengthened Covenant

Even more significant than the phrase “one week” is the verb that governs the clause. Daniel 9:27 states that “he shall confirm the covenant with many.” The Hebrew verb used here is וְהִגְבִּיר (vehegbīr)—derived from gābar, meaning “to make strong,” “to cause to prevail,” or “to strengthen.” It does not ordinarily describe the initiation of a brand-new covenant, nor the signing of a political treaty. Rather, it conveys the idea of reinforcing, upholding, or causing something already established to prevail. This is critical.

The text does not say the “he” makes a new covenant. It says he makes strong the covenant. The definite structure implies continuity, not innovation. The covenant already exists in God’s redemptive plan—promised to Abraham, administered under Moses, foretold by the prophets—and in the final week it reaches its decisive confirmation.

Within the seventy-weeks framework, this makes perfect sense. The Messiah does not arrive to invent a new political arrangement; He arrives to bring the covenant promises to their fulfillment. By His ministry and ultimately by His blood, He causes the covenant to prevail—establishing it in its intended, completed form. This reading aligns naturally with the broader testimony of Scripture. At the Last Supper, Jesus does not speak of drafting a treaty; He speaks of confirming covenant reality: “This is My blood of the covenant” (Matthew 26:28). In Hebrews, Christ is not portrayed as negotiating, but as inaugurating what had long been promised (Hebrews 8–10). Thus the force of Daniel 9:27 rests not on the duration of a supposed treaty, but on the strengthening of God’s covenant within the final week of the seventy. The grammatical structure reinforces what the timeline already demonstrates: the focus is redemptive, not political.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The remaining three and a half years extend to 34 AD, completing the seventy weeks, during which the gospel is proclaimed primarily to Israel before the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7–8).

I'm going to point out issues (in this case, minor) I have as I go along reading your post. While what you say here is true, Acts 11:19 says that Jews continued to proclaim the gospel only to other Jews after the dispersion caused by Stephan's stoning.

Indeed then the ones dispersed from the affliction that came into being with Stephen went unto Phoenicia, and Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews only. Acts 11:19​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Even more significant than the phrase “one week” is the verb that governs the clause. Daniel 9:27 states that “he shall confirm the covenant with many.” The Hebrew verb used here is וְהִגְבִּיר (vehegbīr)—derived from gābar, meaning “to make strong,” “to cause to prevail,” or “to strengthen.” It does not ordinarily describe the initiation of a brand-new covenant, nor the signing of a political treaty. Rather, it conveys the idea of reinforcing, upholding, or causing something already established to prevail. This is critical.

Another point, The LXX uses the word δυναμόω which means to enable. In this case, Jesus enabled, or empowered, his people to become like him by destroying the power of the devil, ie, the law, through his death that sealed the new covenant.

And he shall strengthen (δυναμόω) a covenant with many one period of sevens. And in the half of the period of seven shall be lifted away sacrifice and libation offering, and upon the temple an abomination of the desolations will be; and until the completion of time, completion shall be given unto the desolation. Daniel 9:27​

G1412 δυναμόω dunamoo (d̮ï-na-mo'-ō) v.
to enable.

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains
74.6 δυναμόω; ἐνδυναμόω: (derivatives of δύναμαι ‘to be able,’ 74.5) to cause someone to have the ability to do or to experience something—‘to make someone able, to give capability to, to enable, to strengthen, to empower.’
δυναμόω: ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει δυναμούμενοι κατὰ τὸ κράτος τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ ‘being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might’ Col 1:11. ἐνδυναμόω: πάντα ἰσχύω ἐν τῷ ἐνδυναμοῦντί με ‘I can do all things by the one who makes me able’ or ‘I am able to face anything by the one who makes me able (to do it)’ Php 4:13; ἀλλ’ ε’νεδυναμω’θη τῇ πι’στει ‘but he was enabled by faith’ Ro 4:20.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Within the seventy-weeks framework, this makes perfect sense. The Messiah does not arrive to invent a new political arrangement; He arrives to bring the covenant promises to their fulfillment. By His ministry and ultimately by His blood, He causes the covenant to prevail—establishing it in its intended, completed form. This reading aligns naturally with the broader testimony of Scripture. At the Last Supper, Jesus does not speak of drafting a treaty; He speaks of confirming covenant reality: “This is My blood of the covenant” (Matthew 26:28). In Hebrews, Christ is not portrayed as negotiating, but as inaugurating what had long been promised (Hebrews 8–10). Thus the force of Daniel 9:27 rests not on the duration of a supposed treaty, but on the strengthening of God’s covenant within the final week of the seventy. The grammatical structure reinforces what the timeline already demonstrates: the focus is redemptive, not political.

IMO, unless I am not understanding you correctly, you are in essence doing the same thing that dispensationalists do by splitting off half of the final week in order to project its fulfillment into the future. I know why they do what they do, but I don't understand what it accomplishes in your case, unless it's the same thing, which is denying that all of God's promises to natural Israel are fulfilled in Christ and his body.

In terms of the gospel there really is no reason to think that the final 3.5 years were any different than the first 3.5 years, because it was still Christ establishing the new covenant with Israel. Whether he was personally present, or not, is irrelevant. It was him doing it in the first 3.5 year period, and it was him doing it in the final 3.5 year period because:

The one hearing you, hears me; and the one disregarding you, disregards me; and the one disregarding me, disregards the one having sent me. Luke 10:16​

 

[JustThinking]

IMO, unless I am not understanding you correctly, you are in essence doing the same thing that dispensationalists do by splitting off half of the final week in order to project its fulfillment into the future. I know why they do what they do, but I don't understand what it accomplishes in your case, unless it's the same thing, which is denying that all of God's promises to natural Israel are fulfilled in Christ and his body.

In terms of the gospel there really is no reason to think that the final 3.5 years were any different than the first 3.5 years, because it was still Christ establishing the new covenant with Israel. Whether he was personally present, or not, is irrelevant. It was him doing it in the first 3.5 year period, and it was him doing it in the final 3.5 year period because:

The one hearing you, hears me; and the one disregarding you, disregards me; and the one disregarding me, disregards the one having sent me. Luke 10:16​

Thanks for your comments. Apparently, my narrative may not have been as clear as I had thought. Please consider the following:

First, I do not believe my view is doing what dispensationalism does. Dispensationalism commonly separates the seventieth week from the first sixty-nine weeks and projects that final week into the future, often applying Daniel 9:27 to a future antichrist covenant or political treaty. I am doing the opposite. I am keeping Daniel 9:27 centered on the Messiah. Christ is the One who caused the covenant to prevail. Christ is the One who fulfilled the covenant promises. Christ is the One who completed the redemptive requirements of Daniel 9:24.

In my view, the seventy-weeks prophecy began in 457 BC and continued without a gap. During the first sixty-nine weeks, Israel was given its assigned role in the restoration process. The people, city, temple, walls, sacrifices, feasts, sabbatical cycles, and sacred order had to be restored after the Babylonian destruction. They were also to return to the Scriptures, study the promises, and prepare for the coming Messiah. Then, on the first day of the seventieth week, the Messiah arrived to complete what only God Himself could complete. Israel could restore the city, the walls, the ceremonies, and the outward sanctuary order, but Israel could not restore the true Presence of God. That final restoration belonged to God alone. In that sense, Jesus came as the true Presence of God among His people — the true fulfillment of what the ark represented. Everything taken away through Babylon was being restored in reverse order, and the final restoration was not merely a piece of furniture in the sanctuary, but God’s own presence returning in the person of the Messiah.

That is one reason I do not believe there can be a 2,000-year gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week. The whole restoration process moves toward the Messiah. If the Messiah does not arrive at the appointed time, the restoration remains incomplete. But He did arrive. He did minister. He did confirm the covenant. And after 3.5 years, He was rejected and crucified. Yet that rejection did not prevent Him from fulfilling His mission. He left nothing undone. So I am not saying the Messiah still has unfinished work from Daniel 9:24. He finished His work. The seventy-weeks prophecy was fulfilled in Him.

Where I make a distinction is between the seventy-weeks prophecy and the fourth Great Jubilee cycle. I see them as running on the same 490-year span, like two rails of the same track. One rail is the seventy-weeks prophecy, fulfilled completely by the Messiah. The other rail is the fourth Great Jubilee cycle, which also began in 457 BC and was intended to end at the same appointed time. But when Israel rejected and crucified the Messiah 3.5 years before the end of that Jubilee cycle, the Jubilee counting could no longer continue for them. They were no longer standing in right covenant relationship with their God. Their rejection of the Messiah caused the abomination that causes desolation, and the result was the long period Jesus referred to as the times of the Gentiles. That is why I do not place the remaining 3.5 years on Christ, as though He still has something left to fulfill from Daniel 9:24. I place it on Israel’s unfinished covenant response within the Jubilee framework. The Messiah completed His side. Israel did not complete theirs.

So the final 3.5 years are not a future antichrist treaty, and they are not an unfinished portion of Christ’s redemptive mission. They belong to Israel’s final restoration. When the times of the Gentiles end, God will remove their blindness, much like Paul’s Damascus experience, and a restored remnant of Israel will proclaim the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. That final witness completes what was interrupted by their rejection of the Messiah.

So I agree that all God’s promises are fulfilled in Christ. But I do not believe Israel has yet corporately received and proclaimed the One in whom those promises are fulfilled. The covenant was completed by Christ; the remaining issue is Israel’s final covenant response to Christ.

Hope this is clearer and makes sense, look forward to your thoughts.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But when Israel rejected and crucified the Messiah 3.5 years before the end of that Jubilee cycle, the Jubilee counting could no longer continue for them.

I don't follow your reasoning for this. Nothing changed except Christ's location.

They were no longer standing in right covenant relationship with their God.

Of course they were. Who do you think the 12 apostles and numerous other disciples were? They were the chosen remnant of Israel that grew in size day by day as the gospel went forth into all the world and became the holy nation of God.

The Messiah completed His side. Israel did not complete theirs.

Israel according to the flesh, as Paul described them, certainly didn't, nor will they ever; but the elect remnant certainly did.

So I agree that all God’s promises are fulfilled in Christ. But I do not believe Israel has yet corporately received and proclaimed the One in whom those promises are fulfilled. The covenant was completed by Christ; the remaining issue is Israel’s final covenant response to Christ.

It seems to me that you really don't believe that all promises and prophecy was fulfilled in Christ and his body because you make the assumption that there has to be a corporate covenant response in the future. Have you examined why you believe that way?
.

 

[JustThinking]

I don't follow your reasoning for this. Nothing changed except Christ's location.

What do you mean? What is causing the confusion... specifically?

Of course they were. Who do you think the 12 apostles and numerous other disciples were? They were the chosen remnant of Israel that grew in size day by day as the gospel went forth into all the world and became the holy nation of God.

The 12 apostles and numerous other disciples certainly accepted Jesus as their Messiah - after the cross. These are the same people that are found and identified in Daniel 2:41-44 as the "pottery clay:" those that would accept Jesus as their Messiah and would go out into the pagan Roman Empire and preach the Good News. However, within these same verses you will find the "ceramic or miry" clay that represent His people that had rejected and crucified Him - and still do. By the time of Constantine, the Gentiles dominated the Christian church and effectively removed or excluded Jews from the church they began. But "corporate Israel" continues to reject Jesus as their Messiah.

Israel according to the flesh, as Paul described them, certainly didn't, nor will they ever; but the elect remnant certainly did.

Certainly, the apostles and other's who accepted Jesus spread the Word of God and the testimony of Jews throughout the Empire. But even today, "corporate Israel" does not accept Jesus. You say they never will but I believe that is not true. They will definitely be called by God before the return of Jesus to preach the Good News and restore their relationship with their God. This will last for the final 3.5 years and then bring in the Messiah's return.

It seems to me that you really don't believe that all promises and prophecy was fulfilled in Christ and his body because you make the assumption that there has to be a corporate covenant response in the future. Have you examined why you believe that way?
.

To be candid, I have been extremely clear about this and yet you repeat the same comment - no matter how much more I try to explain it. Jesus fulfilled ALL that was asked of Him from His Father and returned to Him after the cross.

The ONLY unfulfilled requirement applies NOT TO THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY, but ONLY to the completion of the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle which stopped counting at the time of the cross or 486.5 years after it began. And the ONLY people that can fulfill or complete this 4th Great Jubilee cycle is Israel - not the Christian church, it is not a spiritual fulfillment, but one that is an obligation given by God to His people in Leviticus.

I don't see how I can be any clearer than I have been. Now, whether you agree with this or accept it is completely yours. Thanks.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The ONLY unfulfilled requirement applies NOT TO THE 70 WEEKS OF YEARS PROPHECY, but ONLY to the completion of the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle which stopped counting at the time of the cross or 486.5 years after it began. And the ONLY people that can fulfill or complete this 4th Great Jubilee cycle is Israel - not the Christian church, it is not a spiritual fulfillment, but one that is an obligation given by God to His people in Leviticus.

You make a distinction between Israel and the Christian church. I don't. So I guess that is why you believe Israel ended, or went on pause, precluding completion of the great jubilee cycle. Paul made clear that the elect remnant was israel. So what you call the church is to me just a continuation of Israel per his words.

 

[JustThinking]

You make a distinction between Israel and the Christian church. I don't. So I guess that is why you believe Israel ended, or went on pause, precluding completion of the great jubilee cycle. Paul made clear that the elect remnant was israel. So what you call the church is to me just a continuation of Israel per his words.

I think I understand your point and what you are relying on..... Perhaps the best place to start might be in Romans 9–11 as a whole. I agree that Paul identifies a believing remnant as Israel, but I would encourage you to look closely at whether Paul stops there, or whether he also preserves a future concern for Israel as a people.

For example, Romans 9:6–8 shows that not all who are descended from Israel are the true covenant Israel. That supports your remnant point.

But then Romans 10:1 shows Paul still praying for Israel’s salvation, which means he has not treated Israel’s corporate condition as irrelevant.​

​

Romans 11:1–5 shows the remnant according to grace. Again, I agree with that.​

​

But Romans 11:11–15 then asks whether Israel stumbled so as to fall permanently, and Paul says no. He speaks of their fall, their fullness, their casting away, and their receiving again. That sounds larger than only the first-century remnant.​

​

Then Romans 11:25–29 becomes especially important. Paul says a partial hardening has happened to Israel “until” the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, and then he speaks of Israel’s future mercy in connection with God’s covenant promises. He even says the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.​

So I would suggest reading Romans 9–11 straight through and asking: does Paul teach only a present remnant, or does he teach a present remnant plus a future mercy for hardened Israel?

I agree the church is grafted into the covenant promises through Christ. I agree there is only one way of salvation. But I do not think Paul’s remnant teaching erases his “until” teaching. The 70 weeks of years prophecy was indeed fulfilled by Jesus, but the 4 Great Jubilee's were given to His people in Leviticus and they must be completed. Further, there is a reason for this - God certainly knew His people would reject and crucify their Messiah, and it would be at this exact point in time, the cross, where the counting of the 4th and final Great Jubilee would stop. God would punish His people for some 2000 years, (times of the Gentiles), but at the end of this period He would restore His relationship with HIs people so they could complete the final Jubilee. So, once again, we can see just how unbelievable God is: how He can connect His Word, His prophecies from within Leviticus, through Daniel, through the Gospels and into Revelation. Everything is done for a purpose. The 70 weeks of years prophecy is not a stand alone prophecy - it connects or aligns with many other requirements, factors, etc. It took quite a long time for me to understand the "true" reason for the remaining 3.5 years. It was not a "prophecy" issue, it was a separate issue that ran along side the prophecy - the 4th Great Jubilee cycle. No matter how I tried, there was no way to justify an unfulfilled 3.5 year time element that needed to be addressed some 2000 years in the future - Jesus had indeed completed His mission. It wasn't until I had to go back and secure the 457 BC starting date of the prophecy when I found this date was the only one that tied in perfectly to the Great Jubilee cycles. This locked down the 457 BC date and then it also allowed me to see the remaining 3.5 years applied to this issue - not the prophecy.


Romans 9:6–8 — not all physical descendants are covenant Israel.
Romans 10:1 — Paul still prays for Israel’s salvation.
Romans 11:1–5 — there is a remnant according to grace.i
Romans 11:11–15 — Israel’s stumbling is not final; Paul speaks of their “fullness” and “receiving.”
Romans 11:25–29 — partial hardening lasts “until” the fullness of the Gentiles; God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable.
Zechariah 12:10 — Israel looks on the One they pierced and mourns.
Matthew 23:37–39 — Jerusalem’s house is left desolate “until” they say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”
Luke 21:24 — Jerusalem is trampled until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Revelation 7:1–8 — the sealed 144,000 are presented through Israel’s tribal framework, even though the list is arranged symbolically.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But then Romans 10:1 shows Paul still praying for Israel’s salvation, which means he has not treated Israel’s corporate condition as irrelevant.

He's referring to the remnant. He wished that all would be saved, but he knew better because he knew scripture and he gives many examples to support his point that only a remnant has ever been, or will be, saved.

But Romans 11:11–15 then asks whether Israel stumbled so as to fall permanently, and Paul says no. He speaks of their fall, their fullness, their casting away, and their receiving again. That sounds larger than only the first-century remnant.

It doesn't actually say permanently; you're reading that into the text. He's asking if Israel's stumbling caused all of Israel to fall, and the answer is. no. And he hopes to provoke some of them into repentance that they might be saved

Then Romans 11:25–29 becomes especially important. Paul says a partial hardening has happened to Israel “until” the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, and then he speaks of Israel’s future mercy in connection with God’s covenant promises. He even says the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable to the election only; the disbelievers have no part in them. You are taking liberties IMO to interpret "until" to mean the partial hardening will be lifted. It doesn't say that; it merely says that the partial blindness will last until the last gentile enters. When that happens the temple will be completed, the mystery of God will be finished, the 7th trumpet will sound and Christ will return.

The 70 weeks of years prophecy was indeed fulfilled by Jesus, but the 4 Great Jubilee's were given to His people in Leviticus and they must be completed.

You have me confused because on one hand you say all has been fulfilled in Christ, yet here you say something remains to be fulfilled.

Zechariah 12:10 — Israel looks on the One they pierced and mourns.

This was fulfilled at the cross. John explicitly said so (John 19:36-37). The similar verse in Revelation pertains to the whole world, not Israel.

Matthew 23:37–39 — Jerusalem’s house is left desolate “until” they say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”

This was fulfilled when Jesus was descending the Mt of Olives on his final approach to Jerusalem and his disciple uttered those very words. Luke has the proper sequence of those events. This was actually part of a psalm (118 I think) that was sung by pilgrims as they approached Jerusalem for the 3 yearly feasts.

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Luke 13:35​

And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. Luke 19:37-38​

Luke 21:24 — Jerusalem is trampled until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

At which point the lord will return

Revelation 7:1–8 — the sealed 144,000 are presented through Israel’s tribal framework, even though the list is arranged symbolically.

Those are not the 12 tribes of Israel under the law. Levi and Joseph were not part of the 12 tribes, and Ephraim and Dan are missing. Those are IMO the 12 tribes of spriritual Israel, which has nothing to do with the flesh.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Perhaps the best place to start might be in Romans 9–11 as a whole.

If you want we can go over those 3 chapters verse by verse. A scattered approach doesn't seem to be that helpful

 

[JustThinking]

If you want we can go over those 3 chapters verse by verse. A scattered approach doesn't seem to be that helpful

Thank you for all your comments, but I will decline. Once again, despite my unambiquous statement that the 70 weeks of years was fulfilled by Jesus you make the following statement in your last response to me:

You have me confused because on one hand you say all has been fulfilled in Christ, yet here you say something remains to be fulfilled.

I wish you the best but I will move on.

 

[LTL]

Revelation 7:1–8 — the sealed 144,000 are presented through Israel’s tribal framework, even though the list is arranged symbolically.

Hi JT.
Let's say that the 144,000 are Christian's called to represent the Father (Rev. 14:1). As such, these 144,000 do represent Israel of whom they belong, representing each of the twelve tribes. However, they are also judges whom judge the populations of the earth during the 3.5-year judgment. Thus, the more important aspect of the prophecy is that the 144,000 are called as judges.

Thus, Dan like Levi before, is taken out of the count of twelve tribes to minister as judges. These are the judges in Rev. 20. The Savior on the throne governs through his judges of whom there are 144,000.

As the judgment progresses, these judges search for repentent souls to gather out of a fallen world. Thus, the wicked are not able to stand in their way as shown in Rev. 9:4.

The tribulaiton is close now.

 

[JustThinking]

Hi JT.
Let's say that the 144,000 are Christian's called to represent the Father (Rev. 14:1). As such, these 144,000 do represent Israel of whom they belong, representing each of the twelve tribes. However, they are also judges whom judge the populations of the earth during the 3.5-year judgment. Thus, the more important aspect of the prophecy is that the 144,000 are called as judges.

Thus, Dan like Levi before, is taken out of the count of twelve tribes to minister as judges. These are the judges in Rev. 20. The Savior on the throne governs through his judges of whom there are 144,000.

As the judgment progresses, these judges search for repentent souls to gather out of a fallen world. Thus, the wicked are not able to stand in their way as shown in Rev. 9:4.

The tribulaiton is close now.

I would like to take the 144,000 separately, because I think Revelation gives us a clearer picture of their role than simply identifying them as judges.

In Revelation 7, the 144,000 are sealed from the tribes of Israel. I do not read that as a literal census of 144,000 individuals, nor do I think the unusual tribal list is accidental. The number itself is deeply symbolic: twelve tribes, multiplied by twelve, multiplied by a thousand. It speaks of fullness, order, covenant completeness, and the restoration of God’s people - not Christians.

So when Revelation presents the 144,000 in tribal language, I do not think God is randomly identifying Gentile Christians under Israelite names. I think He is showing the restoration of His covenant people after the long period of blindness. This fits Paul’s statement in Romans 11 that a partial hardening has happened to Israel “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” That “until” matters. Paul does not treat Israel’s blindness as permanent, and it does not refer to a Christian group as having their blindness removed. This takes place after the "times of the Gentiles," - this separates His people from a Christian group.

This also connects with Jesus’ words in Luke 21:24, where Jerusalem is trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Once that period is complete, God turns again to His people. This does not create another way of salvation. It means Israel is brought back through the same Messiah they rejected.

That is why I connect the 144,000 with the final 3.5 years. In my view, the seventy-weeks prophecy was fulfilled by Christ. He completed His work. But the fourth Great Jubilee cycle was interrupted when Israel rejected and crucified the Messiah. Israel’s final 3.5-year covenant response remains unfinished. When God removes their blindness, He restores them to covenant relationship and empowers them to proclaim the very truth they once rejected.

This is why the 144,000 should be connected to witness more than judgment. Revelation 14 shows them standing with the Lamb, having the Father’s name written on their foreheads. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are redeemed, faithful, and undefiled. That language points to restored identity and covenant loyalty.

I also see a connection with Revelation 11. The two witnesses prophesy for 1,260 days. I do not think this has to be limited to two literal individuals. The “Word of God” and the “testimony of Jesus” are the two great witnesses that God’s people are called to proclaim. Revelation itself repeatedly joins these two ideas together: the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. So the restored remnant of Israel, sealed by God, becomes the final witness to the world.

This would also explain why they are sealed before the winds are released. The sealing is not merely protection for their own survival. It marks them as belonging to God, restored to covenant, and prepared for divine service. Just as Paul’s eyes were opened on the Damascus road and he immediately became a witness to the Messiah he had opposed, Israel’s eyes will be opened at the end of the Gentile period. Then they will proclaim Christ with clarity, power, and covenant authority.

The prophets also seem to anticipate this kind of restoration. Zechariah 12:10 speaks of God pouring out the Spirit of grace and supplication, and Israel looking upon the One they pierced. Isaiah 59:20–21 speaks of the Redeemer coming to Zion and God’s Spirit and words remaining with His people. Isaiah 60:1–3 describes Israel’s light rising while darkness covers the earth, and the nations coming to that light. These passages fit the idea of Israel being restored, enlightened, and then used as a witness to the nations.

So I do not see the 144,000 primarily as judges. Revelation 20 does speak of thrones and judgment, but Revelation 7 and 14 do not directly call the 144,000 judges. Their clearest role is that they are sealed servants of God, restored Israel, faithful followers of the Lamb, and witnesses who proclaim the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus during the final 1,260 days.

In that sense, the 144,000 are not merely an end-time group appearing out of nowhere. They are the answer to Daniel’s unfinished covenant issue, Paul’s “until” in Romans 11, Jesus’ “until” regarding the times of the Gentiles, and Revelation’s final witness before the judgment of the beast system.

I apologize for not responding to your reply by, "Let's say that the 144,000 are Christian's called to represent the Father (Rev. 14:1)," because I really would not have an answer for you... I just do not see it that way.... and my response would have no value at all.
Please let me know your thoughts, you always bring interesting thoughts and interpretations.... The Scriptures are simply so difficult to unpack and be able to look into the mind of God. Thanks.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It speaks of fullness, order, covenant completeness, and the restoration of God’s people - not Christians.

Your ideas derive from the doctrine of Christian neo-pharisaism. Different details, but essentially the same bifurcated gospel of dispensationalism. Two peoples, two covenants, two gospels equals one abomination.