Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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brightfame52 said:
You dont understand the truth
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They always come back, brightfame52, to the proposition that they must do or contribute something for salvation
rather than of trusting exclusively in Christ, the Savior, and the effectiveness of His finished work, in whom, is complete rest from all works found. Yet even though they like to loudly tout God's grace, at the same time, they would nullify it by trying to add to it.
 
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rogerg said:
They always come back, brightfame52, to the proposition that they must do or contribute something for salvation
rather than of trusting exclusively in Christ, the Savior, and the effectiveness of His finished work, in whom, is complete rest from all works found. Yet even though they like to loudly tout God's grace, at the same time, they would nullify it by trying to add to it.
Click to expand...

Actually, rather than your strawman, come back to GW teaching MFW, including:

M – Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31).

F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27 like Jesus also lamented in Matt. 13:14-15.

W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).

The NT proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is God's condition for grace: IF sinners repent they will be IN Christ. There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
 
GWH said:
Actually, rather than your strawman, come back to GW teaching MFW, including:

M – Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31).

F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27 like Jesus also lamented in Matt. 13:14-15.

W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).

The NT proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is God's condition for grace: IF sinners repent they will be IN Christ. There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
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Everything required for salvation was perfectly and completely achieved by Christ, with nothing left for man to do, which makes Him THE Savior and not man - it's really just that simple. Should you read Scripture and not perceive Christ alone as its logical foundation and logical conclusion, then you've missed the boat. Until and unless you can find in the gospel somewhere that it is explicitly states that Christ isn't, of Himself, sole Savior (which you can't), then, you need to check yourself. If you believe yourself a Christian, then it is astounding that you don't see that. You do know that the word "Christian", itself, was built upon "christ" alone - they didn't choose to call themselves "Christandourworksians", just "Christians", so that alone should tell you a lot.

Here it is again, as clear as it can be:

[Tit 3:4-6 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
 
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GWH said:
The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion
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I ain't gonna go through all of your post because there is so much wrong with it as it would take me forever to untangle it, and I'm not interested in expending that much time and effort in doing so, given as you probably won't be able to grasp it anyway.
So, I'll just focus on the above:

Regarding Eph 2:8-10 (BTW, I find yours and others, interpretation of it mind boggling, that you would try to twist it the way you do.)
Your focus is only on the word "faith", but you completely ignore the words before and after it. Not to mention that verse was not written as standalone but within the context of vs 2:1 through 2:22, none of which, mention anything about a requirement for man to satisfy - it is something that you are trying to force into it. Have you ever read and understood all of them? I think not.
Here is vs 2:8. I also included 2:7 as an example. If you can understand 2:7, then you will see that its "exceeding riches of his grace", only come through Christ Jesus, and NOT THROUGH ANY CONTRIBUTION OF MAN'S, including by his faith - read the verse closely. Vs 2:8 begins with the word "For". The "For" means that it is a continuation of verse 2:7 specifically, and the ones prior to it generally. Vs 2:8 tells us that by that grace (the grace described in vs 2:7) - it being God's grace through Jesus Christ - are we saved. Furthermore, since the grace is His grace - then by that - the faith must also be His faith, which faith, was brought to fruition through His grace- there is no other pathway possible from/to the "faith" then by His grace. Any other conclusion would be a logical impossibility and contradiction of that. Additionally, were the faith of vs 2:8 to actually mean man's faith, it would completely invalidate the remainder of the verse - that it is actually completely and solely God's gift. Were it not solely by/from God alone, then the " and that not of yourselves" could not possibly be true. So, based upon all of the verses of Eph 2, it is clear that salvation, in its entirety, is bequeathed, as completely a free gift from an exceedingly merciful, gracious and forgiving God, through Jesus Christ THE Savior, unto His chosen ones, according to His good pleasure.


[Eph 2:7-8 KJV]
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

I don't understand your reference to 2:9 & 10, because they support my position regarding salvation, not yours. The "good works" are Christ's good works unto salvation, not man's good works.

[Eph 2:9-10 KJV]
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Regarding Phl 1:4-5, you neglected to include vs6, which completes 4-5 - that it is God who begins the "good work in you" and who alone will perform it until the "day of Jesus Christ". So, according to the verses, man makes no contribution to that whatsoever:

[Phl 1:4-6 KJV]
4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
 
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rogerg said:
Everything required for salvation was perfectly and completely achieved by Christ, with nothing left for man to do, which makes Him THE Savior and not man - it's really just that simple. Should you read Scripture and not perceive Christ alone as its logical foundation and logical conclusion, then you've missed the boat. Until and unless you can find in the gospel somewhere that it is explicitly states that Christ isn't, of Himself, sole Savior (which you can't), then, you need to check yourself. If you believe yourself a Christian, then it is astounding that you don't see that. You do know that the word "Christian", itself, was built upon "christ" alone - they didn't choose to call themselves "Christandourworksians", just "Christians", so that alone should tell you a lot.

Here it is again, as clear as it can be:

[Tit 3:4-6 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Click to expand...

Your reply continues to ignore Scripture that contradicts your opinion, including Matt. 7:7, 23:37, Heb. 11:6, Eph. 2:8-9 and so forth plus those that refute TULIP.
Yes, Christ saves, IF sinners repent--which is indeed quite simple. Saving faith does not negate Christ as Savior. Tit. 3:4-6 does not nullify the need for sinners to repent and have faith in order to receive God's gift of salvation. Harmonization of GW is needed.
 
rogerg said:
I ain't gonna go through all of your post because there is so much wrong with it as it would take me forever to untangle it, and I'm not interested in expending that much time and effort in doing so, given as you probably won't be able to grasp it anyway.
So, I'll just focus on the above:

Regarding Eph 2:8-10 (BTW, I find yours and others, interpretation of it mind boggling, that you would try to twist it the way you do.)
Your focus is only on the word "faith", but you completely ignore the words before and after it. Not to mention that verse was not written as standalone but within the context of vs 2:1 through 2:22, none of which, mention anything about a requirement for man to satisfy - it is something that you are trying to force into it. Have you ever read and understood all of them? I think not.
Here is vs 2:8. I also included 2:7 as an example. If you can understand 2:7, then you will see that its "exceeding riches of his grace", only come through Christ Jesus, and NOT THROUGH ANY CONTRIBUTION OF MAN'S, including by his faith - read the verse closely. Vs 2:8 begins with the word "For". The "For" means that it is a continuation of verse 2:7 specifically, and the ones prior to it generally. Vs 2:8 tells us that by that grace (the grace described in vs 2:7) - it being God's grace through Jesus Christ - are we saved. Furthermore, since the grace is His grace - then by that - the faith must also be His faith, which faith, was brought to fruition through His grace- there is no other pathway possible from/to the "faith" then by His grace. Any other conclusion would be a logical impossibility and contradiction of that. Additionally, were the faith of vs 2:8 to actually mean man's faith, it would completely invalidate the remainder of the verse - that it is actually completely and solely God's gift. Were it not solely by/from God alone, then the " and that not of yourselves" could not possibly be true. So, based upon all of the verses of Eph 2, it is clear that salvation, in its entirety, is bequeathed, as completely a free gift from an exceedingly merciful, gracious and forgiving God, through Jesus Christ THE Savior, unto His chosen ones, according to His good pleasure.


[Eph 2:7-8 KJV]
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

I don't understand your reference to 2:9 & 10, because they support my position regarding salvation, not yours. The "good works" are Christ's good works unto salvation, not man's good works.

[Eph 2:9-10 KJV]
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Regarding Phl 1:4-5, you neglected to include vs6, which completes 4-5 - that it is God who begins the "good work in you" and who alone will perform it until the "day of Jesus Christ". So, according to the verses, man makes no contribution to that whatsoever:

[Phl 1:4-6 KJV]
4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Click to expand...

Your reply proves my point: that you prefer jousting with strawmen rather than engaging in serious discussion of Scripture.
It is mind-boggling that you will not admit faith is the requirement for salvation cited in Eph. 2:8-10.
Actually, it is rather weird that someone who stresses Christ alone would not agree to faith alone and Scripture alone as Luther taught.
Assuming you have given a gift, was it opened?
That is the role of faith.
Did the recipient's opening of the gift mean they gave it or earned it?
 
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GWH said:
Your reply continues to ignore Scripture that contradicts your opinion, including Matt. 7:7, 23:37, Heb. 11:6, Eph. 2:8-9 and so forth plus those that refute TULIP.
Yes, Christ saves, IF sinners repent--which is indeed quite simple. Saving faith does not negate Christ as Savior. Tit. 3:4-6 does not nullify the need for sinners to repent and have faith in order to receive God's gift of salvation. Harmonization of GW is needed.
Click to expand...

You're an ongoing clean-up on aisle 5! You state things that you don't understand yet state them as fact. You need someone to actually explain them to you.
I've told you this before, yet you are still unable to grasp it. If you had looked further into Scripture, you might have seen that true repentance is given by God and is manifested by turning from their works for salvation unto a complete trust in Christ as Savior for salvation.
Regarding seeking, we read in Rom 3:11 that no natural man, of himself can truly seek after God - it is as plain as it can be. Therefore,
those who do so have already been born again, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, who leads them to do so - they must first be made righteous through Christ.

[Rom 3:10-12 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 
GWH said:
Did the recipient's opening of the gift mean they gave it or earned it?
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The gift cannot be opened because the gift is given as open and effective - that it has to is a figment of your- what - imagination, or worse?
Your post demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the gospel and of God's grace through Jesus Christ
 
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GWH said:
Yes, Christ saves, IF sinners repent--
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Thats conditional salvation, and sinners repent when Christ their Saviour gives it to them Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Christ is causative of our repentance and forgiveness of sins.
 
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Hakawaka said:
After discovering that there is a group of people out there within the umbrella of Christianity who believe such a foreign gospel blew my mind.

- Jesus does not love all, did not die for all, does not want all to be saved? What?????
- God decrees the most vile of sins?
- From out of the womb the majority of people are born with ZERO choice, but were created only to glorify God in hell for eternity?
- To believe on your own is a "works-based salvation"? What????
- Their god hates most people but calls us to love our enemies?
- Anytime you see the word "ALL" and "WORLD" in the bible it always means "elect"?
- We are called "universalists" because we believe Jesus died and wants all to come to Calvary?
- And on and on and on...

There is zero good news in the Calvinist system! Don't fall for Calvinism. Escape while you can. Jesus CLEARLY SAID we have a will to choose. John 7:17... "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."
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Yes, you have captured it well, and to add additional insult to the scripture they have they have gull to call it "doctrines of grace."

It is also very apparent there is no problem with their "special elected/created status" and will in fact go to great lengths to justify it.

But those of us who follow the true doctrines of grace know quite well the profile of people who believe themselves to be special created beings for salvation while others are left in their sins with no way out.
 
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rogerg said:
You're an ongoing clean-up on aisle 5! You state things that you don't understand yet state them as fact. You need someone to actually explain them to you.
I've told you this before, yet you are still unable to grasp it. If you had looked further into Scripture, you might have seen that true repentance is given by God and is manifested by turning from their works for salvation unto a complete trust in Christ as Savior for salvation.
Regarding seeking, we read in Rom 3:11 that no natural man, of himself can truly seek after God - it is as plain as it can be. Therefore,
those who do so have already been born again, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, who leads them to do so - they must first be made righteous through Christ.

[Rom 3:10-12 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Click to expand...

Ditto re not understanding. Y'all are still unwilling to see that TULIP demeans God's love and righteousness,
making Rom. 3:10-13 to include God! The part of Romans you ignore clearly teaches that God loves and offers
salvation to all sinners, because He does not show favoritism.

I urge your cult of heretics to repent of perverting the Gospel including Eph. 2:8-10, Deut. 30:19, Acts 18:4, 28:23-24, Matt. 23:37, 7:7, Heb. 11:6, Rom. 10:10-13, John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, 5:2, 1Tim. 2:3-4, etcetera ASAP!
 
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GWH said:
Ditto re not understanding. Y'all are still unwilling to see that TULIP demeans God's love and righteousness,
making Rom. 3:10-13 to include God! The part of Romans you ignore clearly teaches that God loves and offers
salvation to all sinners, because He does not show favoritism.

I urge your cult of heretics to repent of perverting the Gospel including Eph. 2:8-10, Deut. 30:19, Acts 18:4, 28:23-24, Matt. 23:37, 7:7, Heb. 11:6, Rom. 10:10-13, John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, 5:2, 1Tim. 2:3-4, etcetera ASAP!
Click to expand...

P.S. As I posted elsewhere: "through faith" indicates the God's condition for forgiveness (IF/MFW)
and "that not of yourselves" indicates that saving faith is not meritorious.
 
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