Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

[mikeboll64]

it also said God became flesh and dwelt among us....Do you discard that.

Actually, it is said that the Word OF God became flesh and dwelt among us. Tell me, what GLORY did this Word have as a flesh being? The glory of God Himself? Or the glory of the only begotten OF God? What does scripture say about it? (John 1:14)

John 1:1 is from where much of the problem stems, because so many Trinitarian translators render part c as "and the Word was God". This is a bad translation that makes no sense because the BEING of God could not possibly have been WITH the BEING of God.

This is from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars that produced NETBible (NETBible: John 1:1):
Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God&#8221 rather than indefinite (“a god&#8221 here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

What this tells us is that Colwell's Rule, (the rule used as support of a "THE theos", or "God with a capital G" rendering of 1:1c) is only ONE of the THREE possible translations of 1:1.

The other two possibilities are:
1. "a god"
2. "god" in a qualitative nuance

Moffatt's Translation uses #2, rendering it as "and the Word was divine". And the JWs New World Translation uses #1, rendering it as "and the Word was a god".

Both of these are as grammatically acceptable as mainstream Christianity's "God with a capped G" translation. But here's the clincher:
The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”

This is 25 TRINITARIAN scholars acknowledging what those of us without a "Jesus is God" bias already accept as simple common sense: God cannot possibly be said to be WITH God. So of the THREE possibilities, "THE God" is the only one these scholars eliminate.

Jehovah is the God OF gods. Jesus and Satan are only two of the many gods in heaven and on earth that Jehovah is the God OF. So try understanding John 1:1 to be saying that Jesus, who is the Word, was WITH his own God in the beginning, and was himself a god (mighty one). Because that IS what John was telling us.

peace,
mike

 

[Grandpa]

Actually, it is said that the Word OF God became flesh and dwelt among us. Tell me, what GLORY did this Word have as a flesh being? The glory of God Himself? Or the glory of the only begotten OF God? What does scripture say about it? (John 1:14)

John 1:1 is from where much of the problem stems, because so many Trinitarian translators render part c as "and the Word was God". This is a bad translation that makes no sense because the BEING of God could not possibly have been WITH the BEING of God.

This is from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars that produced NETBible (NETBible: John 1:1):
Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

What this tells us is that Colwell's Rule, (the rule used as support of a "THE theos", or "God with a capital G" rendering of 1:1c) is only ONE of the THREE possible translations of 1:1.

The other two possibilities are:
1. "a god"
2. "god" in a qualitative nuance

Moffatt's Translation uses #2, rendering it as "and the Word was divine". And the JWs New World Translation uses #1, rendering it as "and the Word was a god".

Both of these are as grammatically acceptable as mainstream Christianity's "God with a capped G" translation. But here's the clincher:
The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”);

This is 25 TRINITARIAN scholars acknowledging what those of us without a "Jesus is God" bias already accept as simple common sense: God cannot possibly be said to be WITH God. So of the THREE possibilities, "THE God" is the only one these scholars eliminate.

Jehovah is the God OF gods. Jesus and Satan are only two of the many gods in heaven and on earth that Jehovah is the God OF. So try understanding John 1:1 to be saying that Jesus, who is the Word, was WITH his own God in the beginning, and was himself a god (mighty one). Because that IS what John was telling us.

peace,
mike

It makes perfect sense to me. God has three aspects that taken as a whole make Him One God. God's spirit is with God and is God. Not little g, big G. God's Word is with God and is God.

What do your 25 Scholars have to say about Isaiah 9:6?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[jandian]

Just wondering..... Who do you say Jesus is? considering His seed is not of Joseph but of the Holy Spirit? Where did He come from?

 

[Crossfire]

In every way Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. However, the scriptures are clear that Jesus was a man in every way also. The only thing which separated Christ from men was that He was not born with the selfish nature that has been passed down through the generations since Adam and Eve.

Read the scriptures and you will find that Jesus did not perform one supernatural miracle in and of His own divine strength. If He had done so He would have been in violation of the Father's will for His life which was to humble Himself and become a man. Every temptation that Jesus endured while the desert was Satan's way of trying to trick Jesus into proving His own divinity. Thankfully Jesus didn't fall for it.

Every miracle Christ performed was due to the Father both living in Him and working through Him. Every authoritative word that came out of His mouth was the Father speaking through Him. If modern Christians could only grasp the concept that we, as believers, are the temple of the Living God and that we are to live a surrendered life just as Jesus did, we could and would see true Biblical Christianity lived out on this earth today.

 

[mikeboll64]

What do your 25 Scholars have to say about Isaiah 9:6?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Hi Grandpa,

They're not MY 25 scholars, but YOURS. They are all Trinitarians. But what about Is 9:6? What part of that verse says that Jesus is God Most High? After all, it was God Most High who was foretelling this about somebody ELSE, right?

So which exact words in that scripture lead YOU to believe that Jesus - the one being spoken ABOUT - was also the one doing the speaking?

peace,
mike

 

[mikeboll64]

Mike Did you know that Jesus was asked this exact question? "that can't be, because no man has seen God at any time. And many people saw Jesus."

Have you read His answer?

John 14

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

that passage right there shows that Jesus IS the Father Manifested to the world.

So you claim that it was the Father, and not the Son, who came to earth as a sacrificial Lamb then?

 

[AnandaHya]

Hi Anandahya!! As I read the 2 things you wrote here,the Lord in me would have me tell you something. Matt 17:16 "And Jesus said to him,Blessed are you,( your name) because flesh and blood did not revel this to you,but MY Father wgo is in heaven." Blessing always to you sis!

love you bro. want some soup?

 

[mikeboll64]

Just wondering..... Who do you say Jesus is? considering His seed is not of Joseph but of the Holy Spirit? Where did He come from?

Jesus is the Son OF God, of course. Isn't that what the whole of the Bible teaches? He came FROM his God, as did all other things. But he was the FIRST to come FROM God, and then all other things were created BY God THROUGH Jesus - as many scriptures tesitfy.

Nor is his seed of the Holy Spirit, or he would be called "Son of the Holy Spirit". He is instead the Son of the Father God Almighty, who caused Mary to become pregnant THROUGH His Holy Spirit.

We need only understand the simple word "OF". If Jesus is OF God, then Jesus is NOT God. If the Holy Spirit is OF God, then it is NOT God.

Jandian, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you accept these scriptures as truth?

If not, then why?

peace,
mike

 

[AnandaHya]

So you claim that it was the Father, and not the Son, who came to earth as a sacrificial Lamb then?

no I don't deny that Jesus is the Son who manifest the Father. no one saw the Father except through the Son but the Son is the Word and the Word, the Father and the Spirit are All one in Heaven but they agree as one on Earth. how they function on Earth and only appear to agree as one instead of BEING one like they are in Heaven is another discussion altogether.

I'm not trinatarian, and I don't believe in three persons but ONE God. not oneness either and you can keep your 25 scholars and Jehovah witness Bible.

Jesus and Satan are not just gods under Jehovah.

You wouldn't be a Jehovah witness by chance?

it would explain a lot of your views. I've spoken to quite a few. wonderful people but we really disagree on quite a few points of theology

saw your last post.

question what is the difference between JESUS the ONLY Begotten Firstborn Son of God and Adam son of God?

 

[mikeboll64]

A. In every way Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

B. Read the scriptures and you will find that Jesus did not perform one supernatural miracle in and of His own divine strength. If He had done so He would have been in violation of the Father's will for His life which was to humble Himself and become a man.

C. Every miracle Christ performed was due to the Father both living in Him and working through Him.

Hi Crossfire,

It seems to me that your point A doesn't align with your points B and C. If Jesus WAS God on earth, then surely as God he would have followed HIS OWN will.

If Jesus WAS God on earth, then surely he would have performed miracles of HIS OWN power.

Can you not see that everything about your posts speaks of TWO, one of which commanded and empowered the other? How does our ONE Being of God command and empower our ONE Being of God?

mike

 

[AnandaHya]

Jesus showed how mankind could be recoiled to GOD by His life and Death. His resurrection is our hope and promise. He lived his life for the most part to show us who we are meant to be not as who HE really was except when it was benefical to show how He fullfilled THIS Prophecy:


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[mikeboll64]

no I don't deny that Jesus is the Son who manifest the Father. no one saw the Father except through the Son

What scripture tells us this? I've seen scripture that says no man has seen the Father EXCEPT FOR Jesus, but none that say others have seen the Father "through Jesus".

you can keep your 25 scholars and Jehovah witness Bible.

Did I post something PARTICULAR that they said with which you disagree? If so, which thing and why?

Jesus and Satan are not just gods under Jehovah.

Well, is Satan called a god? Sure - by both Paul and Jehovah Himself. But is Satan the God Most High, who is the God OF gods and called "the Father"? Nope.

Is Jesus called a god? Yep. But is Jesus the God Most High - or the SON OF that One? What does scripture tell us?

You wouldn't be a Jehovah witness by chance?

Nope. Nor does that have anything to do with our scriptural discussion. If I ever speak unscripturally, then show me my error and I will adjust my understanding accordingly. But other than that, it wouldn't matter if you classified me as a "Devil Worshipper" - as long as what I post is aligned with the words of scripture.

saw your last post.

question what is the difference between JESUS the ONLY Begotten Firstborn Son of God and Adam son of God?

Jesus was created as a spirit being, and existed in the form of God long before being made in the likeness of a human being. Adam was created from the dust of the earth right from the start.

There are many other differences between them also, but no difference that would make Adam being called the son of God mean something different than when Jesus is called the Son of God. In other words, they are BOTH God's children who were brougth forth into existence by their God. And BOTH of them have Jehovah as their Father AND their God.

peace,
mike

 

[mikeboll64]

Jesus showed how mankind could be recoiled to GOD by His life and Death. His resurrection is our hope and promise. He lived his life for the most part to show us who we are meant to be not as who HE really was except when it was benefical to show how He fullfilled THIS Prophecy:


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I agree with your words, Ananda. However, they don't say anything about Jesus being the God he is the Son of.

And what particular part of Is 9:6 tells us that Jesus is God Most High?

 

[AnandaHya]

Jehovah is the God OF gods. Jesus and Satan are only two of the many gods in heaven and on earth that Jehovah is the God OF. So try understanding John 1:1 to be saying that Jesus, who is the Word, was WITH his own God in the beginning, and was himself a god (mighty one). Because that IS what John was telling us.

peace,
mike

i disagree with the statement in red and do find it offensive for it degrades who JESUS really is but I don't have time to discuss it with you right now. have to take care of my kids.

You all will be in my prayers. night.

May God's Light reveal His Truth to the hearts of all who truly Seek HIM and His wisdom.

 

[jandian]

Well look at that;
you are confused about three persons one God
and I'm confused as to how to how many gods u really believe in..
I guess we're even

May God lead us into HIS truth

All the best

 

[Leehen]

This is one of the reasons the jews laugh at us and say we (christians) are pegans. in the old testiment God never told Isreal or the prophets that he would come, but he told them that he would send messiah. Now we know, or atleast should know, that christ is just another way of saying messiah
Now if jesus is God then God is the messiah now if you don't know all about messiah then study on it and see that jesus was a man just like you and me.
And had to live as a man just like you and me. Tempted like you and me, had to have faith in God just like you and me. Reading through some of the post, someone said something about doctrine of men and brother that is the truth, because if you give a child the bible and teach him nothing but let him read and then ask him the question who is jesus, everytime the answer will be son of God. Men are taught that jesus is God, none of the disciples taught such a thing. We have the truth all you have to do is pray, read, and get it for yourself.

 

[AnandaHya]

This is one of the reasons the jews laugh at us and say we (christians) are pagans.

yes and this is why they laughed at Jesus and cruxified Him and why He called them a brood of vipers.

in the old testiment God never told Isreal or the prophets that he would come, but he told them that he would send messiah. Now we know, or atleast should know, that christ is just another way of saying messiah
Now if jesus is God then God is the messiah now if you don't know all about messiah then study on it and see that jesus was a man just like you and me.
Yes fully man and FULLY GOD. yet you reject the second part to your own destruction.

And had to live as a man just like you and me. Tempted like you and me, had to have faith in God just like you and me. Reading through some of the post, someone said something about doctrine of men and brother that is the truth, because if you give a child the bible and teach him nothing but let him read and then ask him the question who is jesus, everytime the answer will be son of God.

Men are taught that jesus is God, yes by the Holy Spirit

none of the disciples taught such a thing. yes they did but no matter how many times the scriptures are given to you you will not hear or see the truth for you have stated below that you see so you remain blind.

We have the truth all you have to do is pray, read, and get it for yourself.

the prophecies of the Messiah include the one where He is Immanuel or God among us. where He is called Almighty God, Everlasting Father for He is the Child who is the Prince of peace and lions and sheep lie down together in peace.

as for the child reading the Bible jab. If anyone not guided by the Holy Spirit reads the Bible then they will think it foolishness. that is why so many can not accept what Jesus taught or says.

He says He is the I AM which is another name for GOD, that is why the Jews wanted to Stone HIM.

Philippians 2:5-7
New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.


no matter what you say Jesus is NOT on the same level as Satan and NONE of the disciples EVER taught that.

Who Jesus is is basic milk but some want to just spit it out and call it foolishness. Reading the Bible and knowing the will of God is not just for babes but fro those who are of full age.

Hebrews 5
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

yet babes often refuse to understand the basics/drink their milk and still need someone to teach them the first principles of the oracles of God.

 

[AnandaHya]

What scripture tells us this? I've seen scripture that says no man has seen the Father EXCEPT FOR Jesus, but none that say others have seen the Father "through Jesus".

ok we have these.....

John 14:7-9
New King James Version (NKJV)

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Even a child would tell you that is tells of how people See the Father through JESUS.

Did I post something PARTICULAR that they said with which you disagree? If so, which thing and why?

Well, is Satan called a god? Sure - by both Paul and Jehovah Himself. But is Satan the God Most High, who is the God OF gods and called "the Father"? Nope.

Is Jesus called a god? Yep. But is Jesus the God Most High - or the SON OF that One? What does scripture tell us?

mmm yes I disagree that Jesus should be placed on the same level as Satan and you don't know what it means to be begotten of God. Adam is said to be the son of God Created in the image of God but no one except JESUS Christ is said to be begotten of God. Yes we are begotten of our parents because we share DNA and other things from our parents but we are born again when we receive the Holy Spirit but does the Bible ever call us begotten of God?

I read these scriptures and think that Jesus is special because He was called SON even in this flesh of men before His resurrection.

Romans 8:22-24
New King James Version (NKJV)
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Nope. Nor does that have anything to do with our scriptural discussion. If I ever speak unscripturally, then show me my error and I will adjust my understanding accordingly. But other than that, it wouldn't matter if you classified me as a "Devil Worshipper" - as long as what I post is aligned with the words of scripture.

true but what you post do not align with the words of scripture.

Jesus was created as a spirit being, and existed in the form of God long before being made in the likeness of a human being. Adam was created from the dust of the earth right from the start.

There are many other differences between them also, but no difference that would make Adam being called the son of God mean something different than when Jesus is called the Son of God. In other words, they are BOTH God's children who were brougth forth into existence by their God. And BOTH of them have Jehovah as their Father AND their God.

peace,
mike

yes there are a lot of other differences between Jesus and Adam but less between God and Jehovah because JESUS is Jehovah.

you have said that no one has seen the Father except the Son, then how do you explain the appearances of Jehovah in the OT where MOSES is said to see Him Face to Face?


I believe them to be appearances of Jesus before His human manifestation and that He told the prophets of old the time HE would walk among them and redeem the world from its sin through His life and death and resurrection. However the Jews of then and today refuse to understand it was JESUS who appeared to their forefathers and taught them all His commandments.

the most important question is WHAT is the gospel, the Good news that should be proclaimed to the world?

Romans 10

Israel Needs the Gospel

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel[a] is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”[d] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[e](that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”[g]
Israel Rejects the Gospel


14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Jesus is the WORD of God.

 

[Crossfire]

Hi Crossfire,

It seems to me that your point A doesn't align with your points B and C. If Jesus WAS God on earth, then surely as God he would have followed HIS OWN will.

If Jesus WAS God on earth, then surely he would have performed miracles of HIS OWN power.

Can you not see that everything about your posts speaks of TWO, one of which commanded and empowered the other? How does our ONE Being of God command and empower our ONE Being of God?

mike

They are two, one of which derived from the other. I could go into great detail, providing much scripture in order to explain this position however, I'm rather limited one time due to my hectic work schedule. So I will leave you with the following passage:

Philippians 2:5-8

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!"

From the Amplified:

"Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!"

As far as the origins of Christ, look no further than John chapter one for details. Then Check out genesis chapter one for reference.

 

[Grandpa]

Hi Grandpa,

They're not MY 25 scholars, but YOURS. They are all Trinitarians. But what about Is 9:6? What part of that verse says that Jesus is God Most High? After all, it was God Most High who was foretelling this about somebody ELSE, right?

So which exact words in that scripture lead YOU to believe that Jesus - the one being spoken ABOUT - was also the one doing the speaking?

peace,
mike

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Everlasting Father and Mighty God, Wonderful and Counselor lead me to believe He is God, not a god. But not just these scriptures. There are lots of other ones too. Such as, the Word was with God and the Word was God. You see, the Word of God Himself says Jesus is God and the Word. The problem some have is that Jesus was also man. He humbled Himself to be inside flesh and suffer, for us, because that was/is His plan foreshadowed by Abraham and Isaac. When Abraham lifts his eyes in the OT I believe he sees the plan of God with Jesus being on the cross for all mankind.

What does Immanuel mean? God with us. That's Jesus. Messiah. That's Jesus. Wonderful, Counselor that's Jesus. All mighty God. That's Jesus. I AM. That's Jesus.

God Bless You.