Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[Jon777]

It is our human nature to want to take some credit for our salvation; I am saved because I believed and my neighbor did not believe. Therefore, God foresaw my will to believe and chose me. But what does God’s word say? What God says is truth, the final word.

“…just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, … In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,” (Eph 1:4-5, 11, NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, … So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:11, 16, NRSV)

“who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; … No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day… And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” (John 6:37, 44, 65, NRSV)

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (Rom 11:5-6, NRSV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” (Eph 2:8-10, NRSV)

“For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—" (Phil 1:29, NRSV)

“but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:4-5, RSV)

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.” (1Pet 1:1-2, NRSV)

“You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.” (John 15:16, NRSV)

“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13, NRSV)

 

[tablet123]

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

If it is not our choice but God chooses then why is God calling many people but few are chosen.

It sounds like we have a choice.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God wants all people to be saved.

So it seems we have a choice.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Hey we do have a choice.

And why is that because God's kingdom is true love not robotic love.

You can program your computer to say I love you but does it really love you.

And you can program your computer to say I hate you and will you get mad and smash it.

 

[Jon777]

My friends, think what sort of people you are, whom God has called. Few of you are wise by any human standard, few powerful or of noble birth. Yet, to shame the wise, God has chosen what the world counts folly, and to shame what is strong, God has chosen what the world counts weakness. He has chosen things without rank or standing in the world, mere nothings, to overthrow the existing order. So no place is left for any human pride in the presence of God. By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation. Therefore, in the words of scripture, ‘If anyone must boast, let him boast of the Lord.’ (1Cor 1:26-31, REB)

 

[ResidentAlien]

Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

It's not 100% of either, it's a cooperative undertaking.

 

[dkontner]

God's will is that all be saved. The fact that any are saved is by His grace and mercy, not will.

 

[Mreal402]

John 3:14-15 reveals Jesus being lifted up on the Cross (as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness) so that all who look to Him in faith/believe in Him will have eternal life - John 12:32 further reveals that Jesus being lifted up on the Cross resulted in this:
"And, when I am lifted up from the Earth, will draw all people to Myself."

How God's sovereignty and His omniscience interplays with His drawing all people...."whosoever believes" without question is hard to mesh and comprehend - Simple reading seems to indicate God must first draw or none would be saved, but Jesus has drawn all and its on us to respond to that drawing and believe and have faith - no one has any excuse before Him if hell is their eternity. Likewise no one can boast of themselves if heaven is their eternity. God is fascinating.

 

[GWH]

It is our human nature to want to take some credit for our salvation; I am saved because I believed and my neighbor did not believe. Therefore, God foresaw my will to believe and chose me. But what does God’s word say? What God says is truth, the final word.

“…just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, … In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,” (Eph 1:4-5, 11, NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, … So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:11, 16, NRSV)

“who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; … No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day… And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” (John 6:37, 44, 65, NRSV)

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (Rom 11:5-6, NRSV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” (Eph 2:8-10, NRSV)

“For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—" (Phil 1:29, NRSV)

“but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:4-5, RSV)

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.” (1Pet 1:1-2, NRSV)

“You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.” (John 15:16, NRSV)

“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13, NRSV)

Well, it is the sinful nature of tulipists to tell God that He cannot love all of humanity but instead must show favoritism to a few, apparently being too dumb to realize that they may not be one of the few.
They also perversely insist on defining accepting God's grace via faith as a meritorious work, ignoring GW teaching that it is God's non-meritorious condition for receiving forgiveness of sins.
May God grant them a heart to repent of such heresy!

Yes to tablet re Deut. 30:19.
Yes to RA re Phil. 2:12-13.
Yes to dk re 1Tim. 2:3-4.
Yes to Mr re John 12:32.

 

[HeIsHere]

It is our human nature to want to take some credit for our salvation; I am saved because I believed and my neighbor did not believe. Therefore, God foresaw my will to believe and chose me. But what does God’s word say? What God says is truth, the final word.

“…just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, … In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,” (Eph 1:4-5, 11, NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, … So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:11, 16, NRSV)

“who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; … No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day… And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” (John 6:37, 44, 65, NRSV)

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (Rom 11:5-6, NRSV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” (Eph 2:8-10, NRSV)

“For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—" (Phil 1:29, NRSV)

“but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:4-5, RSV)

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.” (1Pet 1:1-2, NRSV)

“You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.” (John 15:16, NRSV)

“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13, NRSV)

Belief in /Trust in does not originate in a person's will.

 

[Mreal402]

Belief in /Trust in does not originate in a person's will.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." John 16:8 "...and when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment." I openly acknowledge I am limited before God and can only know what He condescends to reveal about Himself to me... This verse comes to mind, Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God but the things revealed belong to us..." Scripture seems clear regarding God must draw and seek all out first - I believe currently the Holy Spirit does exactly what John 16:8 says He would do... John 3:16 uses the word "whosoever"...which at least to me indicates His offer is freely given to all and we are given by God the freedom to receive or refuse His offer of grace in the Lord Jesus Christ. Exactly how important this distinction is quite frankly is beyond me - although I will say if election is true and some were elected to be saved, and some were chosen for destruction without any ability to receive His grace... why would evangelism be necessary?

 

[HeIsHere]

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." John 16:8 "...and when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment." I openly acknowledge I am limited before God and can only know what He condescends to reveal about Himself to me... This verse comes to mind, Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God but the things revealed belong to us..." Scripture seems clear regarding God must draw and seek all out first - I believe currently the Holy Spirit does exactly what John 16:8 says He would do... John 3:16 uses the word "whosoever"...which at least to me indicates His offer is freely given to all and we are given by God the freedom to receive or refuse His offer of grace in the Lord Jesus Christ. Exactly how important this distinction is quite frankly is beyond me - although I will say if election is true and some were elected to be saved, and some were chosen for destruction without any ability to receive His grace... why would evangelism be necessary?

Let me further elaborate on my post.

You can’t believe something by force of will.

Not possible. Make yourself believe 2+2=5.
This is why we must hear. Some will be persuaded and some will not.

 

[pinebeach]

It is our human nature to want to take some credit for our salvation; I am saved because I believed and my neighbor did not believe. Therefore, God foresaw my will to believe and chose me. But what does God’s word say? What God says is truth, the final word.

I refuse to take any credit for my salvation and God will happily make that very plain to a person if they seek Him and His truth which deviates quite often from our opinions.

Of course God knows the beginning from the end and therefore can state who are His chosen. Does He choose those who believe? Or, do we believe because He chooses. I do not think, for all the myriad posts I have read, opinons heard or articles printed, that we can unravel that as well as some seem to think we can.

However, I see nowhere in scripture where God forces anyone to believe but rather states many times, CHOOSE. Sounds like a choice to me whether or not He knows what choice will be made.

Calvinism is not the gospel found in scripture. We are responsible to follow Christ; God does not force anyone even though at times it may seem like it as we bear the results of our choices. Let us not blame God for our circumstances, but rather seek His face, His mercy and forgiveness and allow Him the throne room in our lives. God treats people as individuals; Jesus died for all.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I refuse to take any credit for my salvation and God will happily make that very plain to a person if they seek Him and His truth which deviates quite often from our opinions.

Of course God knows the beginning from the end and therefore can state who are His chosen. Does He choose those who believe? Or, do we believe because He chooses. I do not think, for all the myriad posts I have read, opinons heard or articles printed, that we can unravel that as well as some seem to think we can.

However, I see nowhere in scripture where God forces anyone to believe but rather states many times, CHOOSE. Sounds like a choice to me whether or not He knows what choice will be made.

Calvinism is not the gospel found in scripture. We are responsible to follow Christ; God does not force anyone even though at times it may seem like it as we bear the results of our choices. Let us not blame God for our circumstances, but rather seek His face, His mercy and forgiveness and allow Him the throne room in our lives. God treats people as individuals; Jesus died for all.

Right. A lot of people quote:

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

But they ignore the verse after it:

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So there is synergy. God the Father doesn't just draw people to His Son, Jesus, in some random way. They must be willing and actually listen and learn from the Father. God has given all of us that innate ability. That is the Father's criteria. Whether we learn from Him or not is the deciding factor.

 

[Jon777]

I can only believe what God’s word states and realize I do not have the mind of God to be able to solve the philosophical problem of free will versus determinism. If theologians and philosophers down through history cannot solve the mystery, far be it from me to do so.

For what human being knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God. (1Cor 2:11, NRSV)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

“Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

These are indeed but the outskirts of his ways; and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?” (Job 26:14, NRSV)

He has made everything suitable for its time; moreover he has put a sense of past and future into their minds, yet they cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (Eccl 3:11, NRSV)

O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Rom 11:33-34, NRSV)

I keep in mind that no human has seen God’s book of life and knows who is in it. We can only know when we are brought to faith by God’s free grace.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29, NRSV)

When Jesus began his ministry, his words are recorded:

After John had been put in prison, Jesus went to Galilee and preached the Good News from God. “The right time has come,” he said, “and the Kingdom of God is near! Turn away from your sins and believe the Good News!” (Mark 1:14-15, GNB92)

And then we find it recorded:

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers. (Acts 13:48, GNB92)

 

[GWH]

I can only believe what God’s word states and realize I do not have the mind of God to be able to solve the philosophical problem of free will versus determinism. If theologians and philosophers down through history cannot solve the mystery, far be it from me to do so.

For what human being knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God. (1Cor 2:11, NRSV)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa 55:8-9, NRSV)

“Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. (Job 11:7-9, NRSV)

These are indeed but the outskirts of his ways; and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?” (Job 26:14, NRSV)

He has made everything suitable for its time; moreover he has put a sense of past and future into their minds, yet they cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (Eccl 3:11, NRSV)

O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Rom 11:33-34, NRSV)

I keep in mind that no human has seen God’s book of life and knows who is in it. We can only know when we are brought to faith by God’s free grace.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29, NRSV)

When Jesus began his ministry, his words are recorded:

After John had been put in prison, Jesus went to Galilee and preached the Good News from God. “The right time has come,” he said, “and the Kingdom of God is near! Turn away from your sins and believe the Good News!” (Mark 1:14-15, GNB92)

And then we find it recorded:

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers. (Acts 13:48, GNB92)

Yes, and a problematic interpretation of some is defining faith as a meritorious work
instead of as merely satisfying God's condition (IF/MFW) of seeking forgiveness,
as GW does (Matt. 4:17, 7:7, 23:37, John 6:29, Rom. 3:21-5:1, 10:9, etc.).
Defining faith wrongly perverts the Gospel (Gal. 1:6-9),
so no one should do that!

 

[Jon777]

Belief in /Trust in does not originate in a person's will.

Paul speaking to believers, Christians:

Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Phil 2:12-13, NRSV)

 

[Jon777]

John Gill on Romans 5:1 –

Therefore being justified by faith,.... Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see Ro 4:25; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it; and so we come to
have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle having set the doctrine of justification in a clear light, and fully proved that it is not by the works of men, but by the righteousness of God; and having mentioned the several causes of it, proceeds to consider its effects, among which, peace with God stands in the first place; and is so called, to distinguish it from peace with men, which persons, though justified by faith in Christ's righteousness, may not have; but are sure, having a sense of this, to find peace with God, even with him against whom they have sinned, whose law they have transgressed, and whose justice they have affronted; reconciliation for sin being made, and a justifying righteousness brought in, and this imputed and applied to them, they have that "peace of God", that tranquillity and serenity of mind, the same with "peace with God" here, "which passes all understanding", Php 4:7; and is better experienced than expressed: and this is all through our Lord Jesus Christ; it springs from his atoning sacrifice, and precious blood, by which he has made peace; and is communicated through the imputation of his righteousness, and the application of his blood; and is only felt and enjoyed in a way of believing, by looking to him as the Lord our righteousness.

To label “faith” as a “means” or “instrument” in obtaining justification, it surely has become a work, a merit because that believer did something the lost man did not.

From the 1646 First London Confession of Faith
XXVIII.
Those that have union with Christ, are justified from all their sins by the blood of Christ, which justification is a gracious and full acquittance of a guilty sinner from all sin, by God, through the satisfaction that Christ hath made by His death for all their sins, and this applied (in manifestation of it) through faith.

1 John 1:7; Heb. 10:14, 9:26; 2 Cor. 5:19; Rom. 3:23; Acts 13:38,39; Rom. 5:1, 3:25,30.

Justification took place at the cross, not at the time someone believes.

who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous. (Rom 4:25, YLT)

 

[Ceph]

Are you people serious about having the same boring debates over and over again, or do you just like constantly writing out big paragraphs?

If it's the latter, you should work on something fun, like a fantasy book, instead of this foolishness.

 

[brightfame52]

So there is synergy. God the Father doesn't just draw people to His Son, Jesus, in some random way. They must be willing and actually listen and learn from the Father. God has given all of us that innate ability. That is the Father's criteria. Whether we learn from Him or not is the deciding factor.

This is salvation by works. Also listening and learning from the Father required being born again first, that's what the drawing initiated. The Father only draws to the Son the ones He selected to give to the Son Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

In fact some greek scholars say the word draw may be a derived from the greek word :

draw.
Or helko hel'-ko; probably akin to haireomai; to drag (literally or figuratively) -- draw. Compare helisso.

see GREEK haireomai:

choose.
Probably akin to airo; to take for oneself,

 

[brightfame52]

Justification took place at the cross, not at the time someone believes.

who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous. (Rom 4:25, YLT)

Thats correct !

 

[brightfame52]

. Does He choose those who believe? Or, do we believe because He chooses.

God chooses who will be sanctified by the Spirit so they will believe the Truth of the Gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.