Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

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memberofthebride said:
but I showed not one is predestined to the lake of fire
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Yes they are, the vessels of wrath are, all their lives God is fitting them for destruction, i believe that destruction is the lake of fire Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The word destruction apōleia:
  1. destroying, utter destruction
    1. of vessels
  2. a perishing, ruin, destruction
    1. of money
    2. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

They were born for that purpose 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
 
brightfame52 said:
Im not getting into eschatology, I just know this second chance stuff you spewing is garbage
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so the god you follow is going the put to death or worse put in to this Hell forever, 6 billion that are alive today, that live in gentile nations that follow pagan religions and have for centuries ?? that is a merciful god for sure.

and then explain what occurs to the babies that die at birth or at one or two or three,
what happens to those born autistic -- can't think

The doctrine you have been taught is very very problematic.

What happened to those in Noahs flood ??

what you are believing is God can't save but very few
 
memberofthebride said:
so the god you follow is going the put to death or worse put in to this Hell forever, 6 billion that are alive today, that live in gentile nations that follow pagan religions and have for centuries ?? that is a merciful god for sure.

and then explain what occurs to the babies that die at birth or at one or two or three,
what happens to those born autistic -- can't think

The doctrine you have been taught is very very problematic.

What happened to those in Noahs flood ??

what you are believing is God can't save but very few
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Now you really starting to sound off
 
brightfame52 said:
No that's not what Jn 3:16 says, that's your imposition that into the text.
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How do you read the verse below?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yeah you deny the Death of Christ that it came short of reconciling both parties, God and man, that's an attack on the efficacy of His Death. Rom 5:10
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Yes. I deny this for obvious reasons.
brightfame52 said:
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice it says we were reconciled to God, not God was reconciled to us.
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Paul is talking about himself and his audience, who have responded to the gospel with faith and surrender. He isn't talking about those of us who came later.

We can also be reconciled to God but we must also respond to the gospel with faith and surrender.
 
memberofthebride said:
not sure of your reaction to what I wrote, but I showed not one is predestined to the lake of fire -- I do not find this "hell" that tortures humans that do not have eternal life -- for ever. that is satanic lies.
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I supplied the logical/Biblical rationale for what you wrote, but I had a senior moment and neglected to include GW regarding annihilation after justice is achieved:

Evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14). :love:
 
memberofthebride said:
so the god you follow is going the put to death or worse put in to this Hell forever, 6 billion that are alive today, that live in gentile nations that follow pagan religions and have for centuries ?? that is a merciful god for sure.

and then explain what occurs to the babies that die at birth or at one or two or three,
what happens to those born autistic -- can't think

The doctrine you have been taught is very very problematic.

What happened to those in Noahs flood ??

what you are believing is God can't save but very few
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All of the elect will become saved.
What you stated above applies only if there isn't election, not if there is. If there isn't, then everyone's salvation would depend
upon random chance. But election isn't dependent upon random chance - whether it be the conditions or timeframe in which they may live, they must become saved. God has publicly assumed responsibility for that so they will hear the gospel, they will be given faith, and they will come to Christ as true believers. Christ did/does it all on their behalf because He is their Savior.
 
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rogerg said:
All of the elect will become saved.
What you stated above applies only if there isn't election, not if there is. If there isn't, then everyone's salvation would depend
upon random chance. But election isn't dependent upon random chance - whether it be the conditions or timeframe in which they may live, they must become saved. God has publicly assumed responsibility for that so they will hear the gospel, they will be given faith, and they will come to Christ as true believers. Christ did/does it all on their behalf because He is their Savior.
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Re "election isn't dependent upon random chance": Correct, it is conditional upon intentional choice.
Yes, the Gospel or proto-Gospel is revealed from the beginning of sinful humanity, whom God loves.
Yes, God enables all sinners to have faith, which may be exercised to believe GW or Satan's lies.
 
Roger316 said:
Why keep it a secret? How difficult is it to have a simple conversation? What do you think it is saying?
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You do know that there are two worlds mentioned in scripture, not one, right? And since this world will be destroyed
by God, this one can't be the one He "loved".
 
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GWH said:
Re "election isn't dependent upon random chance": Correct, it is conditional upon intentional choice.
Yes, the Gospel or proto-Gospel is revealed from the beginning of sinful humanity, whom God loves.
Yes, God enables all sinners to have faith, which may be exercised to believe GW or Satan's lies.
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Man's choice plays no part whatsoever in election; only God's choice did.
 
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memberofthebride said:
so the god you follow is going the put to death or worse put in to this Hell forever, 6 billion that are alive today, that live in gentile nations that follow pagan religions and have for centuries ?? that is a merciful god for sure.
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What the others point out is that apart from God's intervention, some folks will face justice. We are saved by his Grace, It is also worth mentioning the fact that God is fair, just, righteous and truthful so whatever punishment they receive will be appropriate.

We don't know how many people will receive God's mercy but I don't think it will be as few as you imagined. Remember what the Apostle Paul said in his letter to the Hebrews. In chapter 11, Paul describes several heroes of the faith and they all share a striking distinction. They knew very little about how God would save them. Paul sums it up. All one needs to know is that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6. Folks like Enoch and Noah didn't know that Jesus would die on a cross to save them from their sins, but Enoch was taken because he had faith in God.

The same is true of Gentile pagans living in other nations. Among their number, there undoubtedly exist some who believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him. One does not need to know the entire content of the gospel in order for God to save them.

memberofthebride said:
and then explain what occurs to the babies that die at birth or at one or two or three,
what happens to those born autistic -- can't think
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I can't speak to the issue of babies, but I know that God is loving, good, and righteous. And I trust that he would do the right thing, whatever it is. As for Autistic children, I can speak from experience. I have a friend who has an autistic child and I watched him grow up to become a young adult. And I could see the spirit of God at work in this young man. He was genuinely interested in the gospel and was able to communicate his thoughts.

Then there was the case of another autistic child who, although he could barely speak, was genuinely engaged with the teaching at church. One day, I stood in the back of the church and prayed, "O' God, let help this boy speak his mind." The boy grew up to be a thoughtful young man, and he graduated from College. God is truly great. merciful and worthy of praise.
memberofthebride said:
The doctrine you have been taught is very very problematic.

What happened to those in Noahs flood ??

what you are believing is God can't save but very few
Click to expand...
You are right to be concerned. Hopefully I have given you some things to think about.
 
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