Is "touch starvation" a real thing?

[Lovette]

So yeah... Welcome to the forum and all its oddball regulars. Like cinder who knows a lot about the Bible and has a disconcerting habit of saying things I would have said if she hadn't beat me to it. And seoulsearch who makes long posts about things she has been thinking about for at least three days (usually much longer) so you really do want to take the time to read them. Rod uses this forum like twitter, always very short posts but always pithy. ZNP has a thing for prophesying economic doom. And so forth.

You'll get used to all of us eventually.

Lovette always has an axe to grind. Even her questions are more statements than questions, for she has already made up her mind. Woe betide anybody who dares to disagree with her, for she will go to the ends of the earth and spend her last breath to get the last post in.

Lanolin, now, she's a true chaotic neutral. Like, roleplay people should use her personality as the standard to judge whether they got their chaotic neutral characters right. She usually misunderstands comments, and takes conversations off on long tangents as a result. Then again, sometimes she will say something so trenchant and insightful that it amazes me. (Lately she has been absolutely crushing it in the Star Mashup thread.)

So a Lovette vs Lanolin deathmatch thread is a true wonder of entertainment, something to savor. Sit back, pop a drink, grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.

Your assessment of me is inaccurate, my mind is not made up, I'm genuinely puzzled over many issues, human agency is one, for instance. Is everything predetermined by God, there's no option but to submit? Or are we enabled and empowered by God, with a free will, to make a difference?

 

[Lovette]

I'm an OG from the BBS days. Forums are definitely social media.

If this isn't social media, what are all these comments doing here?

Well if you bring up social media, what most people instantly have in mind would be those platforms I just mentioned, not an old school forum for a niche group.

 

[Lynx]

Your assessment of me is inaccurate, my mind is not made up, I'm genuinely puzzled over many issues, human agency is one, for instance. Is everything predetermined by God, there's no option but to submit? Or are we enabled and empowered by God, with a free will, to make a difference?

But you set forth with righteous indignation to valiantly fight the evil forces of all who might disagree with you.

Odd contrasts there.

 

[Lynx]

Well if you bring up social media, what most people instantly have in mind would be those platforms I just mentioned, not an old school forum for a niche group.

Preaching against social media on a forum is like needing to drink a beer to get the courage to berate people about the evils of alcohol.

 

[Lovette]

But you set forth with righteous indignation to valiantly fight the evil forces of all who might disagree with you.

Odd contrasts there.

I see it as a legitimate discussion on whether this "touch starvation" is a grief over the loss of a pleasant past experience or an inherent, essential human need. The former suggests it's not a real thing, the latter suggest it is.

Preaching against social media on a forum is like needing to drink a beer to get the courage to berate people about the evils of alcohol.

Here you;re wrong again. I ain't preaching, I'm venting. And kind of practicing, or else my languistic skill would totally atrophy.

 

[passion84god]

Is everything predetermined by God, there's no option but to submit? Or are we enabled and empowered by God, with a free will, to make a difference?

In Galatians 1:15-16, Paul said that God had separated him from his mother's womb, by his grace, that he might preach the gospel. In 1 Corinthians 9:16-17, Paul said that he would experience woe if he did not preach the gospel, whether willingly or unwillingly. This leads me to believe that Paul had the option of not submitting to God's calling upon his life. A reward if he did. Woe if he did not. That sounds like a free will choice to me, with enabling empowerment from God available to answer the call and with greatly different results or outcomes based upon one's choice.​

 

[passion84god]

I see it as a legitimate discussion on whether this "touch starvation" is a grief over the loss of a pleasant past experience or an inherent, essential human need. The former suggests it's not a real thing, the latter suggest it is.

You might be wise to look at the life of Jesus, who should always be our example, to find the answer that you are seeking. It seems to me that Jesus had some sort of touch in the early years of his life because I am assuming that his mother, Mary, and possibly Joseph, held him during his infant years. Do we see Jesus needing or experiencing touch after his ministry began? To my recollection, we see people touching him to receive healing or him touching them to heal them, but this is not the type of touch that you seem to be inquiring about. Jesus spent a lot of time alone during his ministry years and that was spent praying to his heavenly Father. That seemed to be sufficient for him, so I do not know that "touch starvation" represents an inherent, essential human need. To me, it seems more like the loss of a pleasant past experience.​

 

[passion84god]

Weaknesses can be a good thing. They should lead us to more dependence on God.

Which is basically what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:10.

I know that it's not the same exact thing, but going back to the original question, God did starve the children of Israel of that which they hungered for in the wilderness while providing them with the manna they truly needed, which represents Jesus, the true bread from heaven. Is it possible that God similarly starves some of us where touch is concerned so we might hunger more after him? Paul did say that it is good for a man not to touch a woman so he might wait upon and serve the Lord without distraction. Of course, not everyone can live that type of life, but it certainly is an attainable lifestyle. This leads me to believe that "touch starvation" is not reflective of an inherent human need but reflective of human desire instead.​

 

[Lovette]

You might be wise to look at the life of Jesus, who should always be our example, to find the answer that you are seeking. It seems to me that Jesus had some sort of touch in the early years of his life because I am assuming that his mother, Mary, and possibly Joseph, held him during his infant years. Do we see Jesus needing or experiencing touch after his ministry began? To my recollection, we see people touching him to receive healing or him touching them to heal them, but this is not the type of touch that you seem to be inquiring about. Jesus spent a lot of time alone during his ministry years and that was spent praying to his heavenly Father. That seemed to be sufficient for him, so I do not know that "touch starvation" represents an inherent, essential human need. To me, it seems more like the loss of a pleasant past experience.​

Well that settles it. Just a misfortune of this era, especially since the "social distancing", which is rather a horrible social experiment.

 

[passion84god]

Well that settles it. Just a misfortune of this era, especially since the "social distancing", which is rather a horrible social experiment.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to belittle anybody who desires things like touch and socialization. Those things are not inherently bad, and they can certainly bring great joy to peoples' lives. I am just trying to say that following God's will for our lives may lead us away from such things. If not totally, then certainly for extended periods of time.

To be totally transparent, I work in sales. As one might imagine, I get rejected a lot. Sometimes continually for days at a time. That can be very taxing on one's psyche, and I have certainly been paying those types of taxes a lot lately. Just a few days ago, a woman and her daughter walked past me at work, and they both sincerely and politely said "Good morning" to me. This may not be a manly thing to admit, but I almost burst into tears when they said that. It had been a good three weeks or so since anyone had truly even acknowledged my existence, and their simple words really moved me. When they walked past me in the other direction a few minutes later, I approached them both and thanked them for their kind words. They both looked at me like I was from outer space, but I truly did appreciate even that slight bit of human interaction. Was that reflective of an inherent human need in me? Honestly, probably not because I often go long periods of time without any true human fellowship or interaction. At the same time, I am always relying upon God to be my strength, and that type of fellowship is always at my disposal. I would certainly prefer more socialization and fellowship on the human level, but I know that I can survive without it.​

 

[Lovette]

Just to be clear, I am not trying to belittle anybody who desires things like touch and socialization. Those things are not inherently bad, and they can certainly bring great joy to peoples' lives. I am just trying to say that following God's will for our lives may lead us away from such things. If not totally, then certainly for extended periods of time.

To be totally transparent, I work in sales. As one might imagine, I get rejected a lot. Sometimes continually for days at a time. That can be very taxing on one's psyche, and I have certainly been paying those types of taxes a lot lately. Just a few days ago, a woman and her daughter walked past me at work, and they both sincerely and politely said "Good morning" to me. This may not be a manly thing to admit, but I almost burst into tears when they said that. It had been a good three weeks or so since anyone had truly even acknowledged my existence, and their simple words really moved me. When they walked past me in the other direction a few minutes later, I approached them both and thanked them for their kind words. They both looked at me like I was from outer space, but I truly did appreciate even that slight bit of human interaction. Was that reflective of an inherent human need in me? Honestly, probably not because I often go long periods of time without any true human fellowship or interaction. At the same time, I am always relying upon God to be my strength, and that type of fellowship is always at my disposal. I would certainly prefer more socialization and fellowship on the human level, but I know that I can survive without it.​

Now I kind of envy you though. I don't know whether I'm autistic or cynical, if I receive any emotional outburst, either laughter, cry, shout, complaint, trauma dumping, etc. my instinctive reaction is to recognizing it as an assault and walling it off, either intellectualize their issue or distract them from it, in a matter-of-fact manner, even though I personally don't like this kind of left brain response, I just don't know anything else; if somebody said "good morning" to me, I'll just greet back without any second thought. However, I could get emotional over certain contents that lift up my spirits and carry me onto another dimension. I read a substack article titled "every time I watched the Nutcracker it made me cry," and just by reading this article and quietly playing Tchaikovsky in my mind made me cry!

 

[passion84god]

Now I kind of envy you though. I don't know whether I'm autistic or cynical, if I receive any emotional outburst, either laughter, cry, shout, complaint, trauma dumping, etc. my instinctive reaction is to recognizing it as an assault and walling it off, either intellectualize their issue or distract them from it, in a matter-of-fact manner, even though I personally don't like this kind of left brain response, I just don't know anything else; if somebody said "good morning" to me, I'll just greet back without any second thought. However, I could get emotional over certain contents that lift up my spirits and carry me onto another dimension. I read a substack article titled "every time I watched the Nutcracker it made me cry," and just by reading this article and quietly playing Tchaikovsky in my mind made me cry!

Whatever you do, don't envy me because I am still trying to figure it all out myself. I certainly don't know anything about left brain responses or anything like that. What I do know is that Jesus was moved with compassion and he wept. In what would seem to be the loneliest or most isolated points in my life to outsiders and even to myself, that is when these types of heart attitudes, or character traits, or emotions, or whatever one might call them seem to be the most forged or developed within me. It's as if I need to be isolated from society in order to grow and potentially aid society somewhere down the line. I guess that is part of losing our lives to find them.

As to what you described about yourself, be careful that in walling things off, you don't wall yourself in. I don't mean that in a judgmental way. I am just hoping that you don't cut yourself off from being yourself. That is a sort of prison that I needed to escape from in the past myself.
​

 

[passion84god]

I am just reading through the entire thread for the first time, and I saw this:

I've also realized that we're living in a strange era where it's easier than ever to have access to resources and information, yet it's harder than ever to have access to genuine human connection and relationship. It's a kind of grief, and like all grieves, you go through the five stages - denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I've reached acceptance.

Are you admitting here that you went through the first four stages of denial, anger, bargaining, and depression? If you are, then you must have lost some form of touch or genuine human connection somewhere down the line which began that process. Is it possible that you are still angry about that? I am not trying to judge you, and I am truly sorry if it appears that way. It just seems as if you harbor some anger where this topic is concerned, and I just want to make sure that you are okay. I apologize in advance if I am misreading you.​

 

[passion84god]

Well there is a time for embracing, and not embracing, right? Ecclesiastes 3:5

Or attachment, and detachment. Sometimes you just need to let go, as they say, and let God.

Good verse.

 

[passion84god]

We are not called to reach an emotionless state, but rather to allow Jesus to walk beside us so we can live victoriously in spite of whatever crap this life throws at us.

I have tried to kill all my emotions at various points in my life, for various reasons. Not only is it ineffective, it will ultimately hinder your testimony.

Amen.

God's means of protection for us is the breastplate of righteousness. Knowing that we are in right standing with God is what truly protects our hearts. When we build our own walls of protection, they inevitably turn into prison walls, with us being the prisoners.​

 

[passion84god]

I guess this is the biggest weakness of stoicism, though, the philosophy I adhere to. Stoicism has a divine logos too, i.e. the Word, but the difference is that, stoic logos is the order of the universe, an impersonal, indifferent force with no life, no emotion, no personality, and to be honest, that's still my understanding of the Holy Spirit; in Christianity, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, a real man with life, emotion and personality.

Now I understand you, and all your posts make sense. I watched some YouTube videos on Stoicism about 6 months ago, so I know the type of philosophy you are referring to. It is certainly not reflective of the mind of Christ, so you should beware of it. Incidentally, Paul sought to convert the Stoics of his day to Christianity. Acts 17:18.​

 

[Lovette]

Whatever you do, don't envy me because I am still trying to figure it all out myself. I certainly don't know anything about left brain responses or anything like that. What I do know is that Jesus was moved with compassion and he wept. In what would seem to be the loneliest or most isolated points in my life to outsiders and even to myself, that is when these types of heart attitudes, or character traits, or emotions, or whatever one might call them seem to be the most forged or developed within me. It's as if I need to be isolated from society in order to grow and potentially aid society somewhere down the line. I guess that is part of losing our lives to find them.

As to what you described about yourself, be careful that in walling things off, you don't wall yourself in. I don't mean that in a judgmental way. I am just hoping that you don't cut yourself off from being yourself. That is a sort of prison that I needed to escape from in the past myself.

If it were a prison, it'd be a prison that locks my true self out, not in. I feel more like an observer than an inmate, watching a strange man I could hardly recognize in the mirror, managing tasks and properties handed to me in a simulated world, while my true self is exploring in another world, thinking and speaking in another language. I'm just never present in this impasse of life, even though it's relatively an easy and comfortable one.

 

[Lovette]

I am just reading through the entire thread for the first time, and I saw this:

Are you admitting here that you went through the first four stages of denial, anger, bargaining, and depression? If you are, then you must have lost some form of touch or genuine human connection somewhere down the line which began that process. Is it possible that you are still angry about that? I am not trying to judge you, and I am truly sorry if it appears that way. It just seems as if you harbor some anger where this topic is concerned, and I just want to make sure that you are okay. I apologize in advance if I am misreading you.​

Nope. Resentment is murder at heart. "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca! shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. "

Now I understand you, and all your posts make sense. I watched some YouTube videos on Stoicism about 6 months ago, so I know the type of philosophy you are referring to. It is certainly not reflective of the mind of Christ, so you should beware of it. Incidentally, Paul sought to convert the Stoics of his day to Christianity. Acts 17:18.

How is inner peace not reflective of the mind of Christ? Wasn't he sleeping soundly in the midst of a storm one time? The sins of both the Epicureans and the Stoics are not the imperfections of their philosophies, but their scoffing at the concept of resurrection, that's what turned them off.

 

[passion84god]

If it were a prison, it'd be a prison that locks my true self out, not in. I feel more like an observer than an inmate, watching a strange man I could hardly recognize in the mirror, managing tasks and properties handed to me in a simulated world, while my true self is exploring in another world, thinking and speaking in another language. I'm just never present in this impasse of life, even though it's relatively an easy and comfortable one.

So, you are a man. Why was Lynx referring to you as a woman? I said earlier that my discernment must be off because I thought the opening post was written by a man, but I had it right from the beginning.

 

[Lovette]

So, you are a man. Why was Lynx referring to you as a woman? I said earlier that my discernment must be off because I thought the opening post was written by a man, but I had it right from the beginning.

He or she is wrong. And it doesn't matter though, because as I said, I constantly feel like I'm just a spectator of my own life - and other people's.