The book of Job

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I gave you the answer in post 593. I would commend Job. There is not too many people that would bless God after losing their children and all their possessions.
Is there any evidence in the Old Testament prophecies about Esau, or in the New Testament, that would indicate that Esau (the people, not the man) that they blessed God after losing their children and possessions? Because that would be a key criteria in confirming your interpretation. I think we can correlate this to Abraham and to David, but not to Esau. Perhaps you can see this with Samson and Ruth and Mordecai. Of course you can see it with Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Surely you can see this with Jesus and all of the apostles.
 
Is there any evidence in the Old Testament prophecies about Esau, or in the New Testament, that would indicate that Esau (the people, not the man) that they blessed God after losing their children and possessions? Because that would be a key criteria in confirming your interpretation. I think we can correlate this to Abraham and to David, but not to Esau. Perhaps you can see this with Samson and Ruth and Mordecai. Of course you can see it with Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Surely you can see this with Jesus and all of the apostles.

I never claimed they were identical twins. Lack of evidence is proof of nothing.
 
Because Job blessed God after the first test even though he had lost everything.

What does James write in his letter *specifically* in his commendation of Job?

And why is James referencing Job at all in his letter to his brethren and fellow believers?
 
What does James write in his letter *specifically* in his commendation of Job?

And why is James referencing Job at all in his letter to his brethren and fellow believers?

You keep asking me questions that I keep answering, but you have consistently refused to answer this question.

Why did God say this to Job, and would your answer be the same if God asked you the same question?

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
 
You keep asking me questions that I keep answering, but you have consistently refused to answer this question.

Why did God say this to Job, and would your answer be the same if God asked you the same question?

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
What was Job's reply? Did he say, "Yes God, I will disannul your judgment, and I will condemn You so that I may be righteous"? Not at all! Job's answer is found at the start of chapter 42:

NKJV (Job 42:1) Then Job answered the LORD and said:
(Job 42:2) "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
(Job 42:3) You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
(Job 42:4) Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
(Job 42:5) "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.
(Job 42:6) Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."
 
What was Job's reply? Did he say, "Yes God, I will disannul your judgment, and I will condemn You so that I may be righteous"? Not at all! Job's answer is found at the start of chapter 42:

NKJV (Job 42:1) Then Job answered the LORD and said:
(Job 42:2) "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
(Job 42:3) You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
(Job 42:4) Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
(Job 42:5) "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.
(Job 42:6) Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

You have not answered the question. The question was, why did God ask this very unique question about Job's righteousness? Would it be that it is too much like the statement Elihu made?
Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?

Or could it be too much like the statement the spirit made? Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
 
You have not answered the question. The question was, why did God ask this very unique question about Job's righteousness? Would it be that it is too much like the statement Elihu made? Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?

Or could it be too much like the statement the spirit made? Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
I think you have misunderstood, because I certainly did not say that my righteousness is more than God's. I would never say such a thing.
 
Can you explain your position?
How do the pieces of the Bible fit together? Jesus is a priest. Job suffered. James says faith without works is dead. But, can you explain how those three things connect as a single, coherent argument running through the whole of Scripture?


This document makes the argument: there is a priestly office older than Moses, older than Aaron, older than Israel itself, and it has been operating continuously through human history from the moment God killed an animal in a garden to cover two people who were guilty of sin. That office is named after a man called Melchizedek — a king-priest who appears in Genesis, resurfaces in the Psalms, and then becomes the central argument of the book of Hebrews. The New Testament calls it the priesthood Jesus holds forever. The book of 1 Peter says every believer has been enrolled in it. Job is its clearest Old Testament portrait, and James spent five chapters describing how to live inside it without mentioning its name once. Once you see that, you see your calling to participate in the ministry of reconciliation.


Most treatments of Job use Job to answer the question: why do bad things happen to good people? But if you were to write the story of Tom Brady, bad things happened to him even though he was a good quarterback. But that would not be the focus of your story. Job is about a man whose daily life — his morning offerings, his intercession for his children, his blameless character in an obscure corner of the ancient world — registers in the heavenly court before he knows anything is happening. His faithfulness has standing in a room he cannot see. This is what we really want to know: how did Tom Brady become Tom Brady. That is what the book of Job is primarily about.


"Faith without works is dead" has been at the center of theological arguments for centuries. Entire denominations have been defined by which side of that argument they occupy. But James was not writing a treatise on the mechanics of salvation. He was writing a pastoral letter to scattered believers who needed to know what the tested, proven, patient priestly life actually looks like when it is being lived — the same life Job lived, the same pattern God modeled in Genesis 3. Read that way, James becomes a description of what a person looks like when their faith has been tested and has held. It looks like someone who controls their tongue when provoked. Someone who sits with the poor man instead of directing him to a lesser seat. Someone who goes after the person who has drifted away and brings them home, even when it costs something. That is the portrait of a priest.


James describes the Melchizedekian priestly life without once naming Melchizedek. Hebrews describes the Melchizedekian priestly office without once naming Job. Between them, the two books cover the whole ground: James gives you the life, Hebrews gives you the office, and Job gives you both at once in the form of a story. Three authors, writing in different centuries, and the same pattern runs through all three like a thread.


When James wants to illustrate what that priestly life looks like in practice, he reaches for two examples. One is Abraham — the patriarch, the father of the covenant, the man Melchizedek himself blessed. The other is Rahab. A Canaanite prostitute living in a city whose destruction had already been decided. No covenant credentials. No religious standing. No connection to Israel's God except what she had heard and believed. When the Israelite spies came to Jericho, she hid them at personal risk, and she said out loud what she knew: "The LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath." She ends up in Matthew 1, in the family line of Jesus. James chose the most marginal person he could find to make the point that this office has no credential requirements — only faith that proves itself real when everything is on the line.


The Melchizedekian priesthood, as this document describes it, is not a credential for religious professionals. It rests on what the book of Hebrews calls "the power of an indestructible life." Not office. Not title. Not bloodline. The quality of the life itself. That means the office is available to anyone whose faith has been tested and has not collapsed — anyone who has come through something that should have broken them and found themselves, on the other side, willing to go after the person who is still in it.


Job prayed for the friends who wronged him. God accepted the prayer. That is the shape of the thing, and it has been the shape of the thing since the garden.


If you have ever wondered whether your suffering has a purpose, whether your ordinary faithfulness matters, whether the mess you have come through could possibly be useful to anyone else — this is written for you. It will not give you easy answers. But it will give you a framework large enough to hold the real ones.

 
How do the pieces of the Bible fit together? Jesus is a priest. Job suffered. James says faith without works is dead. But, can you explain how those three things connect as a single, coherent argument running through the whole of Scripture?


This document makes the argument: there is a priestly office older than Moses, older than Aaron, older than Israel itself, and it has been operating continuously through human history from the moment God killed an animal in a garden to cover two people who were guilty of sin. That office is named after a man called Melchizedek — a king-priest who appears in Genesis, resurfaces in the Psalms, and then becomes the central argument of the book of Hebrews. The New Testament calls it the priesthood Jesus holds forever. The book of 1 Peter says every believer has been enrolled in it. Job is its clearest Old Testament portrait, and James spent five chapters describing how to live inside it without mentioning its name once. Once you see that, you see your calling to participate in the ministry of reconciliation.


Most treatments of Job use Job to answer the question: why do bad things happen to good people? But if you were to write the story of Tom Brady, bad things happened to him even though he was a good quarterback. But that would not be the focus of your story. Job is about a man whose daily life — his morning offerings, his intercession for his children, his blameless character in an obscure corner of the ancient world — registers in the heavenly court before he knows anything is happening. His faithfulness has standing in a room he cannot see. This is what we really want to know: how did Tom Brady become Tom Brady. That is what the book of Job is primarily about.


"Faith without works is dead" has been at the center of theological arguments for centuries. Entire denominations have been defined by which side of that argument they occupy. But James was not writing a treatise on the mechanics of salvation. He was writing a pastoral letter to scattered believers who needed to know what the tested, proven, patient priestly life actually looks like when it is being lived — the same life Job lived, the same pattern God modeled in Genesis 3. Read that way, James becomes a description of what a person looks like when their faith has been tested and has held. It looks like someone who controls their tongue when provoked. Someone who sits with the poor man instead of directing him to a lesser seat. Someone who goes after the person who has drifted away and brings them home, even when it costs something. That is the portrait of a priest.


James describes the Melchizedekian priestly life without once naming Melchizedek. Hebrews describes the Melchizedekian priestly office without once naming Job. Between them, the two books cover the whole ground: James gives you the life, Hebrews gives you the office, and Job gives you both at once in the form of a story. Three authors, writing in different centuries, and the same pattern runs through all three like a thread.


When James wants to illustrate what that priestly life looks like in practice, he reaches for two examples. One is Abraham — the patriarch, the father of the covenant, the man Melchizedek himself blessed. The other is Rahab. A Canaanite prostitute living in a city whose destruction had already been decided. No covenant credentials. No religious standing. No connection to Israel's God except what she had heard and believed. When the Israelite spies came to Jericho, she hid them at personal risk, and she said out loud what she knew: "The LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath." She ends up in Matthew 1, in the family line of Jesus. James chose the most marginal person he could find to make the point that this office has no credential requirements — only faith that proves itself real when everything is on the line.


The Melchizedekian priesthood, as this document describes it, is not a credential for religious professionals. It rests on what the book of Hebrews calls "the power of an indestructible life." Not office. Not title. Not bloodline. The quality of the life itself. That means the office is available to anyone whose faith has been tested and has not collapsed — anyone who has come through something that should have broken them and found themselves, on the other side, willing to go after the person who is still in it.


Job prayed for the friends who wronged him. God accepted the prayer. That is the shape of the thing, and it has been the shape of the thing since the garden.


If you have ever wondered whether your suffering has a purpose, whether your ordinary faithfulness matters, whether the mess you have come through could possibly be useful to anyone else — this is written for you. It will not give you easy answers. But it will give you a framework large enough to hold the real ones.


I asked you a direct question and instead you give me word salad.

Job suffered because he was on his way to the pit if he didn't repent. It was all because of his pride.

God asked Job if he was going to take the king over all the children of pride for a servant forever. That is one of the clearest statements in the book of Job and yet most cover their eyes and ears when it comes to this verse.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

It was Satan that was beholding high things right from the first chapter.
 
I asked you a direct question and instead you give me word salad.

Job suffered because he was on his way to the pit if he didn't repent. It was all because of his pride.

God asked Job if he was going to take the king over all the children of pride for a servant forever. That is one of the clearest statements in the book of Job and yet most cover their eyes and ears when it comes to this verse.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

It was Satan that was beholding high things right from the first chapter.
I have answered your question repeatedly, the one thing missing is what I shared with you. No Bible verse is of its own interpretation. If you have an interpretation about the book of Job it must fit with Genesis, and with Psalms, and with Hebrews, and James and Peter. That is what I gave you, an interpretation that does that. Yours doesn't.
 
You keep asking me questions that I keep answering, but you have consistently refused to answer this question.

Why did God say this to Job, and would your answer be the same if God asked you the same question?

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Nice try.

It seems like you are avoiding the question. Why is that? And you're changing the subject, again.

I have answered this question, more than once, most recently in Post #305. Did you read it? You can look it up, but here was my reply:

"Yes, God asks Job that **question** and Job effectively answers "no". So the answer is no Job does not condemn God. This alone proves satan wrong because Job is seeing God face to face and does not curse Him as satan falsely claimed from the beginning. See? That's the story.

Elihu is wrong. Job never said what Elihu is accusing him of saying. If you have that verse, please share it. But you don't have a verse because it's not in the text. Job never said any such thing. In fact, read chapter 9 again because Job says the opposite."


Perhaps you missed that Post #305 because you never responded to it. However, an answer to that question was supplied you, both by me, and also by others on this thread. There has been no lack of response on this point.

But what is your response to the actual written words of James in his letter to his brethren, and why James holds up Job as an example to fellow believers? James is not commending Job about whether or not Job blesses God. So what is he commending Job for? What does it say? And why would James commend Job in this way?

And how does your whole interpretation of Job’s story comport with the words of James and his view of Job’s story?

What say you?
 
I have answered your question repeatedly, the one thing missing is what I shared with you. No Bible verse is of its own interpretation. If you have an interpretation about the book of Job it must fit with Genesis, and with Psalms, and with Hebrews, and James and Peter. That is what I gave you, an interpretation that does that. Yours doesn't.

You were speaking of Esau and then you said my interpretation was wild conjecture. I was simply asking if you were referring to Esau when you made that statement.

You just said no bible verse is of its own interpretation. Does that mean we can do word gymnastics and make it say anything?
 
Nice try.

It seems like you are avoiding the question. Why is that? And you're changing the subject, again.

I have answered this question, more than once, most recently in Post #305. Did you read it? You can look it up, but here was my reply:

"Yes, God asks Job that **question** and Job effectively answers "no". So the answer is no Job does not condemn God. This alone proves satan wrong because Job is seeing God face to face and does not curse Him as satan falsely claimed from the beginning. See? That's the story.

Elihu is wrong. Job never said what Elihu is accusing him of saying. If you have that verse, please share it. But you don't have a verse because it's not in the text. Job never said any such thing. In fact, read chapter 9 again because Job says the opposite."


Perhaps you missed that Post #305 because you never responded to it. However, an answer to that question was supplied you, both by me, and also by others on this thread. There has been no lack of response on this point.

But what is your response to the actual written words of James in his letter to his brethren, and why James holds up Job as an example to fellow believers? James is not commending Job about whether or not Job blesses God. So what is he commending Job for? What does it say? And why would James commend Job in this way?

And how does your whole interpretation of Job’s story comport with the words of James and his view of Job’s story?

What say you?

You did not answer my question. The question was why did God ask Job that question.
 
You were speaking of Esau and then you said my interpretation was wild conjecture. I was simply asking if you were referring to Esau when you made that statement.

You just said no bible verse is of its own interpretation. Does that mean we can do word gymnastics and make it say anything?
I think I have been crystal clear. You say that Job represents Jacob's twin brother or the people that are his descendants. I have said that without other Biblical references to support that assertion it is simply wild conjecture. I asked you for prophetic words in the Bible referencing Esau or Edom that would support your assertion, you don't have any. I showed references to Esau and Job in the New Testament which are completely contradictory.

I have also given you a very detailed Pdf document showing that Job, and Melchisedek relate to the priesthood instituted by God when He covered Adam and Eve with animal skins. I have also referenced Hebrews which explains this in detail and the book of James which is completely built on the story of Job.
 
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