Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[Magenta]

Grace

 

[dkontner]

Grace

The Lord is my light and my salvation, Amen!

 

[memberofthebride]

Let me ask you the same question then. Did Jesus forgive your sins or did he pay for them? It's either one or the other.

my sin are paid for by the shed blood of Christ, they are not forgiven - paid for.

If you owe me money and I forgive the debt,, you do not pay me back, you owe zero

If the Father forgave my debt for my sins which is death, then Christ did not need to die. no debt no death

death penalty sins can not be forgiven -- some one must die

for physical sin like eating unclean meat can be forgiven but even for physical sin, Christ paid the physical debt as well

Remember the scripture " by His stripes we are healed" the physical beating Christ took to His body paid our physical debt for our physical sins

I will, never use the phrase by "grace we are saved " , there is no life in grace, life is in the blood.

 

[memberofthebride]

By the time the New Testament was written, “Jew” had become the broad religious and ethnic term for all Israelites, in contrast to Gentiles. Therefore, the fact that Abraham and Isaac are not called Jews in the Old Testament is irrelevant from a New Testament perspective. In Galatians 3:28, the term is used in the present tense as a general label for the descendants of Abraham and Jacob, so its use there is appropriate and clear. Since Galatians 3:29 defines Abraham’s seed as those who are in Christ, the specific ethnic label applied to Abraham and Jacob—whether in the Old Testament or the New Testament—does not affect the point or lineage.

[Gal 3:28-29 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

By the time the New Testament was written, “Jew” had become the broad religious and ethnic term for all Israelites

that is not possible,
by the time of Christ the 10 tribes had vanished in to the north for over 750 years.
and never seen or heard of again. only the House of Judah, 2 tribes, remained in the middle east and they are the Jews

when things do not match with what folks want reality to be they always improvise, but that does not make their improvised reality truth.

the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, the House of Judah, are the Jews
The House of Israel, the 10 tribes, are Hebrews and they are lost but not to Christ, He knows each by name.

 

[dkontner]

Romans 9​

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

Galatians 3​

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[Roger316]

my sin are paid for by the shed blood of Christ, they are not forgiven - paid for.

If you owe me money and I forgive the debt,, you do not pay me back, you owe zero

If the Father forgave my debt for my sins which is death, then Christ did not need to die. no debt no death

death penalty sins can not be forgiven -- some one must die

for physical sin like eating unclean meat can be forgiven but even for physical sin, Christ paid the physical debt as well

Remember the scripture " by His stripes we are healed" the physical beating Christ took to His body paid our physical debt for our physical sins

I will, never use the phrase by "grace we are saved " , there is no life in grace, life is in the blood.

When you get time, take a look at the first chapter of John.

 

[Magenta]

The Architect

 

[memberofthebride]

When you get time, take a look at the first chapter of John.

making doctrine from one scripture or one chapter or even one apostle, is not wise.
And ignoring the words from the mouth of God, Jesus Christ, is beyond foolish, but all words must be read together. not separate. "Every word", we are not to pick and chose.

I know The Many firmly hold on to "Just believe". you are not going to like what I will say next, I know you can not.

Satan has deceived the entire world including what are called christian churches.

If that were not so why does Christ call His the few and that the Many are deceived and He does not know them?
why does He say "many: not a few but many will come in His name and will deceive many?
the web says there are tens of thousands of diverse churches -- how can that be,,, is Christ divided?
how are they not the deceived many?

I admit I am one of the few, no one accepts what I hold as truth on this site, I am alone. that does not make me right, I am not on the same page as everyone else, but it does place me in with the few.

when Christ says I did not come to destroy the Torah
How can I believe the churches when they teach, Christ came to void the Law by Grace, we are saved by grace?
and they do, not accusing you, many on this site are "under grace" not the law. I am subject to the law.

you wanted me to read John, was that so I could see, the words "believe on His Name"
I have read those words many times but I have read many others adding requirements, do's and warnings.

there is no reason to go any further, nothing I can say will change your mind, and nothing folks have said to me on this site have changed mine.

When Christ returns some are going to be happy and some are not, my mind says it is the many which are not.

 

[rogerg]

Israel’s “divorce” in the prophets refers only to the Northern Kingdom—Ephraim—whom God judged and scattered through Assyria, but Judah was never divorced; she was disciplined, exiled, and restored. That distinction is the backbone of Paul’s claim in Romans 11 that Israel has not “stumbled so as to fall,” because the covenant line carried by Judah—the Davidic promise, the remnant, and the Messiah—was never dissolved. Paul is not denying Israel’s sin or hardening; he is insisting that God’s covenant with His people remains intact, because the root is holy, the remnant endures, and the promises to the patriarchs still govern the story.

That's right, I forgot the penalty for fornication for the southern kingdom in Eze 16, was death, not divorce. But through death (a worse punishment than divorce), its marriage to God was ended. The southern kingdom was later physically rebuilt, but God never reinstated His marriage to it. So, the southern kingdom cannot be used as a basis for Rom 9, nor upon anything that depends upon national Israel's marriage to God.

In Rom 11:14, we are informed that "might save some", not all
[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

I disagree. He speaks about the fact that the Adoption of Sons belongs to his kinsmen. (vs. 4) Then he says that the word of God has not failed. (vs. 5) Logically, the word of God that was in jeopardy was God's promise to grant the inheritance of eternal life to Paul's kinsmen as God promised.

No, God's promise was not to Paul's kinsmen, or he wouldn't have stated that he could be accused from Christ for them in 9:3.

[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

[Rom 9:6-7 KJV]
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Paul’s point in Romans 9:6 is not that “Israel” has been redefined to include Gentiles, but that the Israel connected to the promises of 9:4 has always been a subset within Jacob’s physical descendants—a people God Himself selects. When Paul says, “Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,” he is not creating a new “spiritual Israel” made up of Gentiles; he is explaining why the covenant promises have never applied to every ethnic Israelite indiscriminately. The promised line has always run through God’s chosen remnant within Israel, not through Gentiles. Gentiles are indeed included in salvation, but Paul consistently describes them as grafted-in Gentiles, not as members of Israel itself. So the Israel of Romans 9:6 is not “spiritual Israel” in a universal sense; it is the elect Israel—the sons of Jacob whom God chooses to carry forward the covenant promises.

But in 9:3, we are told that Paul could wish that himself accursed from Christ to save his kinsmen according to the flesh,
which means they weren't in Christ and would never be if he was willing to do that, except for the remnant that is. Do you actually believe that "all Israel shall be saved " - all those of the earthly Israel will be saved? If not, then for the verse to be correct, another Israel must be in Paul's mind. Or if not, what distinction do you draw between those He saves and those He doesn't save?

[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

[Rom 11:26 KJV] 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

When Paul quotes Hosea in Romans 9:26, he is not redefining “Israel” to include Gentiles; he is drawing on a prophecy originally spoken over natural Israel—specifically the Northern Kingdom whom God had called “not my people” and later promised to restore. Likewise, his quotation of Isaiah in Romans 9:27 refers to the remnant of Israel within Judah. Paul’s point is that Israel’s present unbelief fits the prophetic pattern: God judges, preserves a remnant, and then restores. Gentiles are indeed included in salvation, but Paul consistently describes them as called-from-the-nations or grafted-in, never as “Israel.” In Romans 9:26–27, the word Israel retains its Old Testament meaning—Jacob’s physical descendants—because Paul is showing that God’s dealings with ethnic Israel are unfolding exactly as the prophets said.

Disagree. Paul is saying there is only one Israel of God and that Israel consists of Jews and Gentiles alike; to be a part of that Israel human lineage plays no part

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul’s “all Israel” in Romans 11 can rightly be called spiritual Israel, but only in the sense the prophets use the term: the purified, Spirit‑renewed, covenant‑faithful Israel that God Himself creates at the end of the age. It is not a mixed body of Jews and Gentiles; it is the restored nation of Israel whose hardness God removes when He fulfills His promises to the patriarchs. Gentiles are indeed saved and grafted into the people of God, but Paul never calls them “Israel.” In Romans 11, “spiritual Israel” is simply Israel made spiritual—the natural branches restored, the remnant expanded, the nation transformed by the Spirit in fulfillment of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea. Paul’s point is not that Gentiles become Israel, but that Israel will finally become what she was always meant to be.

Disagree. See the above.

Plus
[Gal 3:26-29 KJV]
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are you getting tired of this back and forth? I certainly am. And as most of these types of things go, neither of us will convince the other. You see it one way, I another, and feel as certain of my understanding of it as you do with yours. So, why don't we end this particular discussion at this point rather than continue it as we're repeating ourselves at this point?

 

[rogerg]

By the time the New Testament was written, “Jew” had become the broad religious and ethnic term for all Israelites

that is not possible,
by the time of Christ the 10 tribes had vanished in to the north for over 750 years.
and never seen or heard of again. only the House of Judah, 2 tribes, remained in the middle east and they are the Jews

when things do not match with what folks want reality to be they always improvise, but that does not make their improvised reality truth.

the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, the House of Judah, are the Jews
The House of Israel, the 10 tribes, are Hebrews and they are lost but not to Christ, He knows each by name.

Asher was one of the ten northern tribes that had been deported by Assyria over 700 years earlier. Anna's presence proves that individuals still kept careful genealogical records and knew exactly which northern tribe they belonged to.

[Luk 2:36 KJV] 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

 

[rogerg]

Asher was one of the ten northern tribes that had been deported by Assyria over 700 years earlier. Anna's presence proves that individuals still kept careful genealogical records and knew exactly which northern tribe they belonged to.

[Luk 2:36 KJV] 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

@memberofthebride

I should have included that the verse demonstrates there was lineage from the northern kingdom present in Israel during the New Testament times. There are other similar examples of that

 

[memberofthebride]

Asher was one of the ten northern tribes that had been deported by Assyria over 700 years earlier. Anna's presence proves that individuals still kept careful genealogical records and knew exactly which northern tribe they belonged to.

[Luk 2:36 KJV] 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

nothing states it was every last one of each of the tribes, but never found a mention of any of the 10, existing as tribes.
Judah and Benjamin appears to have mixed, not certain even of that, Paul knew He was from Benjamin.

I have known and done business and partnered with many Jews and not one ever mentioned they were from Judah or Benjamin, but all knew they were Jews. I only used Jewish attorneys, CPA's and doctors, they do have the best minds.

 

[Hakawaka]

Thanks, and yeah, I know, because if they were able to understand it, they already would have understood it, but like you say, it's
like it isn't even there.

Gotta have that esoteric hidden knowledge calvinists humblebrag about all the time. Strange that not a single Christian read it the way you do for centuries. The Spirit just wasnt illuminating manichean truth up until that point in the church, everyone got it wrong

 

[Roger316]

making doctrine from one scripture or one chapter or even one apostle, is not wise.
And ignoring the words from the mouth of God, Jesus Christ, is beyond foolish, but all words must be read together. not separate. "Every word", we are not to pick and chose.

I know The Many firmly hold on to "Just believe". you are not going to like what I will say next, I know you can not.

Satan has deceived the entire world including what are called christian churches.

If that were not so why does Christ call His the few and that the Many are deceived and He does not know them?
why does He say "many: not a few but many will come in His name and will deceive many?
the web says there are tens of thousands of diverse churches -- how can that be,,, is Christ divided?
how are they not the deceived many?

I admit I am one of the few, no one accepts what I hold as truth on this site, I am alone. that does not make me right, I am not on the same page as everyone else, but it does place me in with the few.

when Christ says I did not come to destroy the Torah
How can I believe the churches when they teach, Christ came to void the Law by Grace, we are saved by grace?
and they do, not accusing you, many on this site are "under grace" not the law. I am subject to the law.

you wanted me to read John, was that so I could see, the words "believe on His Name"
I have read those words many times but I have read many others adding requirements, do's and warnings.

there is no reason to go any further, nothing I can say will change your mind, and nothing folks have said to me on this site have changed mine.

When Christ returns some are going to be happy and some are not, my mind says it is the many which are not.

Dear one, I was not attempting to argue with you or to be disagreeable. I would like to be encouraging if you will let me.

I want to quote the following passage and make comments on it. I will quote a large section so you can see it in context. And I believe the message will be very positive and encouraging to you.

This section is from John's first letter, chapter one.

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10)​

​

By your reading and dedication to Torah you demonstrate that you are one of those who follows the light and has fellowship with God. You don't walk in darkness; you walk in the light. You practice the truth. You have fellowship with others who also walk in the light and therefore YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

Jesus forgives your sins and he always will. Hang in there and don't give up.

 

[Roger316]

The Architect

Rejoice in the Lord always.

 

[Roger316]

That's right, I forgot the penalty for fornication for the southern kingdom in Eze 16, was death, not divorce. But through death (a worse punishment than divorce), its marriage to God was ended. The southern kingdom was later physically rebuilt, but God never reinstated His marriage to it. So, the southern kingdom cannot be used as a basis for Rom 9, nor upon anything that depends upon national Israel's marriage to God.

In Rom 11:14, we are informed that "might save some", not all
[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.



No, God's promise was not to Paul's kinsmen, or he wouldn't have stated that he could be accused from Christ for them in 9:3.

[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

[Rom 9:6-7 KJV]
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.



But in 9:3, we are told that Paul could wish that himself accursed from Christ to save his kinsmen according to the flesh,
which means they weren't in Christ and would never be if he was willing to do that, except for the remnant that is. Do you actually believe that "all Israel shall be saved " - all those of the earthly Israel will be saved? If not, then for the verse to be correct, another Israel must be in Paul's mind. Or if not, what distinction do you draw between those He saves and those He doesn't save?

[Rom 9:3 KJV] 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

[Rom 11:26 KJV] 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



Disagree. Paul is saying there is only one Israel of God and that Israel consists of Jews and Gentiles alike; to be a part of that Israel human lineage plays no part

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Disagree. See the above.

Plus
[Gal 3:26-29 KJV]
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are you getting tired of this back and forth? I certainly am. And as most of these types of things go, neither of us will convince the other. You see it one way, I another, and feel as certain of my understanding of it as you do with yours. So, why don't we end this particular discussion at this point rather than continue it as we're repeating ourselves at this point?

We can end it here if you like. But before we go I would like to comment on something you said. I believe, the reason why Paul said he would give up his salvation is focused on God. To paraphrase, I think Paul is saying something like this. "I would rather give up my salvation in Christ than to find out that God was unfaithful. But since God's word didn't fail then I can continue to preach the gospel."

Anyway, may the Lord richly bless you and keep you. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[rogerg]

We can end it here if you like. But before we go I would like to comment on something you said. I believe, the reason why Paul said he would give up his salvation is focused on God. To paraphrase, I think Paul is saying something like this. "I would rather give up my salvation in Christ than to find out that God was unfaithful. But since God's word didn't fail then I can continue to preach the gospel."

Anyway, may the Lord richly bless you and keep you. Thanks for the discussion.

If you feel like you want to continue, we can - I just don't think it will be productive.
Thank you, and the same to you. I'm sure it goes without saying that I see the above differently than you do.

 

[memberofthebride]

Dear one, I was not attempting to argue with you or to be disagreeable. I would like to be encouraging if you will let me.

I want to quote the following passage and make comments on it. I will quote a large section so you can see it in context. And I believe the message will be very positive and encouraging to you.

This section is from John's first letter, chapter one.

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10)​

​

By your reading and dedication to Torah you demonstrate that you are one of those who follows the light and has fellowship with God. You don't walk in darkness; you walk in the light. You practice the truth. You have fellowship with others who also walk in the light and therefore YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

Jesus forgives your sins and he always will. Hang in there and don't give up.

Thank you, I do appreciate your kind efforts.

One comment concerning my personality, which is very evident.

I have come to have difficulty with words --- words for me must not be abstract or have many interpretations. i like clear mental pictures, not always possible.

the word" forgive" is misleading to me.. our sins are paid for by Christ death, sin demand a death.

When others say our sins are forgiven or they are under grace, in my mind this is ignoring the horrendous price Christ paid for us to be given the gift of eternal life.

and when the word "pardon" is used --------

I hope I am not being too strict, but I can not understand in any other way.

I am a 2 + 2 = 4 person and can not change LOL

 

[DavidLamb]

Thank you, I do appreciate your kind efforts.

One comment concerning my personality, which is very evident.

I have come to have difficulty with words --- words for me must not be abstract or have many interpretations. i like clear mental pictures, not always possible.

the word" forgive" is misleading to me.. our sins are paid for by Christ death, sin demand a death.

When others say our sins are forgiven or they are under grace, in my mind this is ignoring the horrendous price Christ paid for us to be given the gift of eternal life.

and when the word "pardon" is used --------

I hope I am not being too strict, but I can not understand in any other way.

I am a 2 + 2 = 4 person and can not change LOL

What about a bible passage like this one, which does mention sin and forgiveness, but does so in a non-abstract way:

(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
(Col 2:14) having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Jesus has wiped out the handwriting of requirements, has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. The bible mentions forgiveness many times, but I find Colossians 2:13-14 particularly practical. I hope that helps.

 

[dkontner]

We are made free!