Reconciled to God while enemies !
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I know what I'm talking about ... I also know what you're talking about.
That someone disagrees with your dogma does not mean they do not know what they're talking about, nor does it mean they do not understand what you're talking about.
You have no substantive rebuttal to what has been submitted relating to the proper meaning of the Greek word katallássō.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
please comprehend what you read:
the word "enemies" is translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,
Prior to being born again, we were (past tense) enemies ... irreconcilable hostility toward God.
Once we are born again, we are reconciled (not past tense) ... much more being reconciled ... the verse does not state "having been reconciled" ... the verse clearly states being reconciled.
In Romans 5:10, the first use of katallássō reflects God having provided for the reconciliation of mankind prior to creation. God provided for reconciliation through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The second use of katallássō reflects the believer being reconciled at the time he or she believes what is written in Romans 4. Righteousness is imputed to those who believe in Him that raised up the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom 4:24) ... then read Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Enemies are not reconciled until they decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position. It is not God Who changes ... it is mankind who changes at the very moment they believe the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
the "being now justified" is a direct result of what occurred prior to Rom 5:9:
Romans 4:20-5:2
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
When a person believes "on Him Who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead", he or she is then "justified by faith" because he or she has changed his or her position and is now in alignment (katallassō) with what God has stated concerning His Son.
.
hah! ... just as I said ...
you're so predictable when the light of Scripture shines upon your erroneous dogma.
Address the issues presented, brightfame52:
Rom 5:10 has them Christ died for reconciled to God while being enemies.
in response,
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
please comprehend what you read:
the word "enemies" is translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,
Prior to being born again, we were (past tense) enemies ... irreconcilable hostility toward God.
Once we are born again, we are reconciled (not past tense) ... much more being reconciled ... the verse does not state "having been reconciled" ... the verse clearly states being reconciled.
In Romans 5:10, the first use of katallássō reflects God having provided for the reconciliation of mankind prior to creation. God provided for reconciliation through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The second use of katallássō reflects the believer being reconciled at the time he or she believes what is written in Romans 4. Righteousness is imputed to those who believe in Him that raised up the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom 4:24) ... then read Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Enemies are not reconciled until they decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position. It is not God Who changes ... it is mankind who changes at the very moment they believe the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).
the word "enemies" is translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,
Prior to being born again, we were (past tense) enemies ... irreconcilable hostility toward God.
Once we are born again, we are reconciled (not past tense) ... much more being reconciled ... the verse does not state "having been reconciled" ... the verse clearly states being reconciled.
In Romans 5:10, the first use of katallássō reflects God having provided for the reconciliation of mankind prior to creation. God provided for reconciliation through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The second use of katallássō reflects the believer being reconciled at the time he or she believes what is written in Romans 4. Righteousness is imputed to those who believe in Him that raised up the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom 4:24) ... then read Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Enemies are not reconciled until they decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position. It is not God Who changes ... it is mankind who changes at the very moment they believe the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).
They are in the favor and good will of God, He is at peace with them. They are reconciled because they are Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9. You have to be legally righteous to be reconciled to God . It has nothing to do with the behavior of the ones He died for, in fact, they were ungodly when these legal transactions transpired on their behalf.
in response,
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
the "being now justified" is a direct result of what occurred prior to Rom 5:9:
Romans 4:20-5:2
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
When a person believes "on Him Who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead", he or she is then "justified by faith" because he or she has changed his or her position and is now in alignment (katallassō) with what God has stated concerning His Son.
Romans 4:20-5:2
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
When a person believes "on Him Who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead", he or she is then "justified by faith" because he or she has changed his or her position and is now in alignment (katallassō) with what God has stated concerning His Son.
.
.
More Truth on 2 Cor 5:19
Many false teachers, those who teach that Christ died for all without exception, but only some of them shall be saved and those who teach that Christ died for all and all without exception shall be saved with none lost, they both teach that the World here in 2 Cor 5:19 means all mankind without exception ! However the rest of the words in the verse 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Proves them to be liars, and that world here is restricted first by the words " theirs" and "them" which refer to God's Chosen or Called as Per 1 Cor 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
1 Cor 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Cor 1:27-28
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
also the fact that these in 2 Cor 5:19 World had not their sins laid to their charge or they were not by God counted against them, reason being they were charged against Christ, so that He would die for them and satisfy their sin debt against God's Law and Justice, it was paid in full, for non imputation of sin is an key component of the Reconciliation of the World in 2 Cor 5:19, and all men without exception cannot be said not to have their sins counting against them since they are said to be condemned already Jn 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And some men are said to be abiding under God's legal and Judicial Wrath Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The word abideth is a present indicative active, meaning they are in a state of God's Wrath or Vengeance !
However this cannot be True of any of that World of 2 Cor 5:19 because they are in a state of favor with God !
Also notice about those in Jn 3:36 who are under God's Wrath, there is a promise annexed to them, which is that they shall not see Life !
But those Reconciled to God by Christ's Death while they are enemies and unbelievers, being reconciled, the promise to them is that they shall be saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This destroys arminianism as well as universalism with one stroke of the pen ! 2
Many false teachers, those who teach that Christ died for all without exception, but only some of them shall be saved and those who teach that Christ died for all and all without exception shall be saved with none lost, they both teach that the World here in 2 Cor 5:19 means all mankind without exception ! However the rest of the words in the verse 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Proves them to be liars, and that world here is restricted first by the words " theirs" and "them" which refer to God's Chosen or Called as Per 1 Cor 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
1 Cor 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Cor 1:27-28
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
also the fact that these in 2 Cor 5:19 World had not their sins laid to their charge or they were not by God counted against them, reason being they were charged against Christ, so that He would die for them and satisfy their sin debt against God's Law and Justice, it was paid in full, for non imputation of sin is an key component of the Reconciliation of the World in 2 Cor 5:19, and all men without exception cannot be said not to have their sins counting against them since they are said to be condemned already Jn 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And some men are said to be abiding under God's legal and Judicial Wrath Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The word abideth is a present indicative active, meaning they are in a state of God's Wrath or Vengeance !
However this cannot be True of any of that World of 2 Cor 5:19 because they are in a state of favor with God !
Also notice about those in Jn 3:36 who are under God's Wrath, there is a promise annexed to them, which is that they shall not see Life !
But those Reconciled to God by Christ's Death while they are enemies and unbelievers, being reconciled, the promise to them is that they shall be saved by Christ's Life Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This destroys arminianism as well as universalism with one stroke of the pen ! 2
More on Reconciliation explained !
As in Justification, there is a difference between Objective/Legal Reconciliation and Subjective/ Experiential Reconciliation.
These must be kept distinct in that there is a big difference in what the Lord Jesus Christ did for His Sheep when He died on the Cross and what shall take place in them because of it; For the Apostles Doctrine taught both of objective and subjective Reconciliation. Now to understand the difference, Paul is teaching objective Reconciliation / Justification in Two places we shall observe #1 in Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Also 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
This Reconciliation [Legal and Objective] began in the Eternal Counsels of the Eternal Covenant, when it was agreed upon between the Father and the Son, the Surety of the People of the Elect or Sheep, that instead of trespasses that the Sheep will commit being charged or imputed to them, that they would instead be charged to their Shepherd, the Son, hence they were reconciled by the mere fact of Non Imputation of Trespasses of which Paul teaches in 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
So Non Imputation equals Reconciliation, this is Objectively / Legally ! This Legal act of God had nothing to do with the actions of the sinners themselves, but only with the Divine Purpose to not to impute the Sins of the Sheep unto them but instead unto Christ their Shepherd ! So Christ is said to be slain from the foundation of the World for the sins imputed Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Secondly, Objective Reconciliation was accomplished, finished, fulfilled in time by Christ's Death and that alone Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This Reconciliation also is not based upon anything the sinner did, but solely " By the Death of God's Son " ! So what Paul has taught is that Reconciliation/ Justification began with the Offended Justice of God being satisfied for those Christ died for, and not with the offenders themselves whom Christ died for ! They themselves while this accomplished Reconciliation has taken place, are yet being enemies !
As in Justification, there is a difference between Objective/Legal Reconciliation and Subjective/ Experiential Reconciliation.
These must be kept distinct in that there is a big difference in what the Lord Jesus Christ did for His Sheep when He died on the Cross and what shall take place in them because of it; For the Apostles Doctrine taught both of objective and subjective Reconciliation. Now to understand the difference, Paul is teaching objective Reconciliation / Justification in Two places we shall observe #1 in Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Also 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
This Reconciliation [Legal and Objective] began in the Eternal Counsels of the Eternal Covenant, when it was agreed upon between the Father and the Son, the Surety of the People of the Elect or Sheep, that instead of trespasses that the Sheep will commit being charged or imputed to them, that they would instead be charged to their Shepherd, the Son, hence they were reconciled by the mere fact of Non Imputation of Trespasses of which Paul teaches in 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
So Non Imputation equals Reconciliation, this is Objectively / Legally ! This Legal act of God had nothing to do with the actions of the sinners themselves, but only with the Divine Purpose to not to impute the Sins of the Sheep unto them but instead unto Christ their Shepherd ! So Christ is said to be slain from the foundation of the World for the sins imputed Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Secondly, Objective Reconciliation was accomplished, finished, fulfilled in time by Christ's Death and that alone Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This Reconciliation also is not based upon anything the sinner did, but solely " By the Death of God's Son " ! So what Paul has taught is that Reconciliation/ Justification began with the Offended Justice of God being satisfied for those Christ died for, and not with the offenders themselves whom Christ died for ! They themselves while this accomplished Reconciliation has taken place, are yet being enemies !
Again for TSers: Harmonize/reconcile 2Cor. 5:19 and Rom. 5:10 with Rom. 3:21-5:1 and the rest of the NT creed, which may be stated thusly:
1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
It's because you still don't get it. Reconciliation is not a legal matter, and reconciliation is a two-party agreement.
Untrue. You posted 2Cor. 5:19 & Rom. 5:10, which I cited/paid attention to and harmonized with Rom. 3:21-5:1 and the rest of the NT
by sharing the Christian creed, which I hope you will believe and be saved.
Don't stop learning GW/the Gospel with a couple of prooftexts!