Is cessation an observation or theology?

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I was in the Pentecostal Movement for 20 years. Seven as an ordained minister. I left the Movement out of disgust over the 'falseness' of so called 'supernatural phenomena. I saw people and healing evangelists claim healings, when a few weeks later, the claims were very false. I saw people coached into speaking in tongues, which were nothing but gibberish.
I saw and experienced 'spiritual abuse' on a large scale. I had to help people pick up their lives after dealing with so called leaders.

There was much noise and activity but little holiness or Christlikeness.
This is a very sad commentary. I have seen many people trying to make revivals and miracles happen by stirring up an atmosphere they believe RESEMBLED "moves of God" in the past. The fact that they TRY shows that it is not real but a human action. I grew weary with simulated revivals and unverifiable miracles. Besides that, the medications I take to treat Bipolar Disorder are neuro-inhibiters which chemically suppress any large "waves" of emotion.

While I have at certain times experienced what can only be understood as the supernatural charismata, I believe, if God is really doing these things, then they will serve HIS purpose which is to either reach out to unsaved as well as to heal, restore and edify His people. This and not putting on a show, is what God wants. All that being said, I believe that the most authentic evidence of the Holy Spirit's miraculous work can be found in the fruit He grows in our character.
 
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Because it’s beneficial, but doesn't change the necessary pattern. Lights, the HVAC system, cars, the building/ house are all beneficial, but they don’t change the pattern we see in the NC.

LOL! So it's all good when you decide so but if you disagree with something, then not good

Actually, spiritual gifts are beneficial. Says so in the Bible.

You are defending your 'truth'. Not biblical truth.
 
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I believe the key word in the sentence you are quoting is "continuing". There is little in scripture to support the existence of the miraculous continuing without the prima facie that was shown in the New Testament.

IOW, Jesus, Peter and Paul presented physical supernatural phenomena, Pentecostals present claims.

If Pentecostals want the world to believe their claims (which they most certainly do), then they must reasonably explain the lack of prima facie to their claims.

I am not picking on Pentecostals, I expect this from the claims of the Flat Earthers as well.

BTW, I do not expect prima facie about space aliens, Big Foot or Loch Ness claims since the claimants insist that they are purposely hiding.
So, to you, any and all claims of miracles are on par with Big Foot, Nessie and flat-earthers? This shows that you have assumed the philosophical premise of Naturalism which is the assumption that only natural laws and forces (as opposed to supernatural ones) operate in the universe. According to Naturalism, the causes of all phenomena are to be found WITHIN THE UNIVERSE and not TRANSCENDENTAL causes that lie beyond it. Philosophers often treat Naturalism as equivalent to physicalism or materialism. I hope you can see that this idea is opposed to YHWH the One whose very name indicates that the Causeless Creator is transcendent above nature. Are you really adopting this belief along with all that is entailed by it or is it just a rhetorical tactic you are using to score "gotcha" points in an argument? You do understand, I hope that STRAW men are not legitimate in debate because they do not represent your opponents real views.
 
Those are not considered miraculous.

Reallly? You have been in attendance for anything in anyone's life they might call an intervention by God? aka a miracle

You presume so much and call it truth when it is nothing but your own subjective reasoning. You depend on your flesh when scripture teaches us that those in Jesus must walk in the Spirit....be led, instructed and dependant upon the Holy Spirit. Do they teach that in your church?

That’s not subtle!

Can you read? He plainly stated that many 'miracles' are subtle. He was stating the opposite of what you falsely say.

I think we’re all talking about miraculous miracles (the blind to receive sight, the mute to talk, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, broken limbs to heal immediately, the sick to have immediate recovery of health, the dead to rise again). None of these things happen anymore.

Are we though? See, if you were observant, you might see and or understand how God often works behind the scenes for those who are His. Is the 'god' you believe in simply letters on a page?
 
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This is a very sad commentary. I have seen many people trying to make revivals and miracles happen by stirring up an atmosphere they believe RESEMBLED "moves of God" in the past. The fact that they TRY shows that it is not real but a human action. I grew weary with simulated revivals and unverifiable miracles. Besides that, the medications I take to treat Bipolar Disorder are neuro-inhibiters which chemically suppress any large "waves" of emotion.

While I have at certain times experienced what can only be understood as the supernatural charismata, I believe, if God is really doing these things, then they will serve HIS purpose which is to either reach out to unsaved as well as to heal, restore and edify His people. This and not putting on a show, is what God wants. All that being said, I believe that the most authentic evidence of the Holy Spirit's miraculous work can be found in the fruit He grows in our character.
Ironically, when God moves the skeptics come out every time.

Your same speech is found in the scoffers when the Holy Spirit fell on the church at Pentecost in the book of acts.

Nothing has changed.

When the Holy Spirit invades a church in the heavy weight of His manfrst presence, with signs, wonders and miracles, many are saved every time.
Every time.
Usually about half or 1/3 of the church leaves.
These are the religious crowd that hates the move of God.
The skeptics.

Happens at every move of God.

The Holy Spirit "put on a show " in the book of acts at the baptism in the Holy Spirit in the upper room.

God always puts on a show in a corporate move of his power.

Look at Elijah.
Moses and the exodus
Jerico.
David and Goliath

When the Holy Spirit is told what He can and can not do.....well...the dead church is born and incubated
 
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I find it hard to believe that you have never seen or heard anything miraculous. I have experienced miracles many times, including being saved from almost drowning, avoiding the need to have my right arm amputated, meeting the perfect woman to be my wife, hands laid on me to instantly heal painful ear infections, and much more.

People typically assume incredible blessings to be coincidence or luck, but I would bet that almost everyone has experienced miraculous healing, job acquisitions, narrow escapes from disaster, deliverance from addictions, recovery from serious illness, reception to the gospel, etc.

Miracles are often subtle, not always regrowing a missing limb or giving sight to the blind.

Christian testimonies of fantastic rescues abound.
The OP is about Physical Supernatural Manifestations of the Holy Spirit as what was experienced during the New Testament time.

Raising the dead, giving sight to the blind and healing the lame, not getting hired at Burger King.

If you were to truly witnesses a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit you would be ashamed of labeling the mundane as miraculous.
 
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Whatever Paul meant as "the perfect", it most surely has come.

This would explain why tongues have ceased.
Your phrase "whatever Paul meant (i.e., by "the Perfect") shows that you yourself either do not know or will not venture to say what you THINK Paul meant when he used that term. Despite being admittedly unable to say for certain what Paul meant you, nevertheless, go on to conclude that this "unknown" "perfect thing" had surely come.

Does this sound anything LIKE a logical argument to you? It does not to me. Yet, you assure us all that your highly uncertain proposition PROVES that tongues ceased. However, undefined highly uncertain propositions cannot prove anything. The fact that you add the ADVERB surely does not make what you say any more credible or certain. Those who wish to be "skillful workmen who rightly divide the word of truth" cannot base their conclusions about the meaning of scriptures on own their own presuppositions. That is a logical fallacy known as CIRCULAR REASONING.

You also must deal with the fact that Cessationism was not the historic view of the Early Church. If it had been, established doctrine or even a firm tradition passed down from the Apostles or even from Christians who lived in the Ante-Nicene period, do you not think they would have said so? Yet some of us here have cited them claiming to have witnessed the ongoing operation of the charismata.

Even Augustine, the theological grandfather of the Reformation (which included such figures as Luther, Zwingli and Calvin) after initially teaching Cessationism ended up publishing a retraction of that very view in several of his books:
Augustine believed in miracles. His writings clearly indicate that he believed that God miraculously healed people of illness in order to support the authority of those who ministered in the name of Christ. The most detailed examples of this are written in the last book of his huge work, City of God. In Book 22 of the eighth chapter of City of God, of which is entitled, Of Miracles Which Were Wrought that the World Might Believe in Christ, and Which Have Not Ceased Since the World Believed.
(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120122.htm )

In this book Augustine gives a very lengthy description of miracles. These were physical cures which he had either witnessed himself, or about which he had heard from those whom he considered to be reliable witnesses. There the reader learns about a blind man cured in Milan while Augustine and Alypius were there as laymen. Augustine devotes many lines to another man named Innocentius, whom he knew a little later in Carthage, when Augustine as a layman was a guest in the house of Innocentius. The miraculous cure of this man, who had been an advocate of the deputy prefecture, happened under the eyes of Augustine. Innocentius was being treated by medical men for fistulae, of which he had a large number intricately seated in the rectum. The cure of this man, who had been an advocate of the deputy prefecture, happened under Augustine's very own eyes: "...
 
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The OP is about Physical Supernatural Manifestations of the Holy Spirit as what was experienced during the New Testament time.

Raising the dead, giving sight to the blind and healing the lame, not getting hired at Burger King.

If you were to truly witnesses a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit you would be ashamed of labeling the mundane as miraculous.
I actually have witnessed and experienced physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

And what you dismiss as “mundane” is God working in this world to rescue us from various problems, including disease.

You should be ashamed. You dishonor God by mocking His current operations. You believe in a supernatural God who has shut down His miracle shop, so now all you get is a purely natural universe operating on natural laws that any unsaved person can agree with.

You think God cannot still do any miracles, mighty signs, or wonders, but you have zero support for this in scriptures. You are carnal in your understanding. Your blinded attitude is if you haven’t seen it, it cannot ever happen.

According to your faith, or lack thereof, be it unto you.
 
Miracles alleviate suffering. Since suffering continues to exist, miracles continue to exist.

Sad that ignorant pastors, who believe in a supernatural God, preach against miracles, because they do not have enough faith to experience them.

No one knows how frequent or rare miracles are today. Many miracles occur quietly, with no publicity.

People who have not seen any miracles claim they no longer happen because the Bible canon is complete, or because the original apostles are dead, or some other ridiculous reason.

Those who have seen miracles have no desire to shout down the miracle deniers. We just keep praising our miracle working God who loves us so much.

Miracles may happen, but everyone walks by faith (2Cor. 5:7).
There are two miracles sinners must believe in order to be saved:
creation (Gen. 1:1, Rom. 1:20, which is an ongoing supernatural miracle),
and recreation/resurrection (1Cor. 15:14-19, Rom. 10:9).
 
LOL! So it's all good when you decide so but if you disagree with something, then not good
It has nothing to do with likes and dislikes. Lol
Actually, spiritual gifts are beneficial. Says so in the Bible.
Yes, they are. But once again, you’re ignoring Scripture on Prophecy, Knowledge, and miraculous miracles ceasing when the “Perfect” comes (the Bible).
You are defending your 'truth'. Not biblical truth.
Nothing is my Truth, I’m speaking from Scripture. I’m merely stating the differences.

Do those beneficial things change the pattern of worship? No!

It’s only when you start changing the actual basic pattern (singing, prayer, Lord’s Supper, message in sermon), that is given by example in Scripture, that you have violated His word.
 
I actually have witnessed and experienced physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

And what you dismiss as “mundane” is God working in this world to rescue us from various problems, including disease.

You should be ashamed. You dishonor God by mocking His current operations. You believe in a supernatural God who has shut down His miracle shop, so now all you get is a purely natural universe operating on natural laws that any unsaved person can agree with.

You think God cannot still do any miracles, mighty signs, or wonders, but you have zero support for this in scriptures. You are carnal in your understanding. Your blinded attitude is if you haven’t seen it, it cannot ever happen.

According to your faith, or lack thereof, be it unto you.
When you tell us that you’ve witnessed the following MIRACULOUS miracles, I’ll believe:

-raising the DEAD
-healing the LAME to walk (full recovery)
-giving sight to the BLIND
-full recovery to all kinds of DiSEASED/ illnesses
-immediate healing of BROKEN LIMBS/ BONES
-casting out DEMONS with one word
-turning water into the best WINE ever
-healing all kinds of MENTAL issues

Cheers!
 
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Your phrase "whatever Paul meant (i.e., by "the Perfect")
I would like to respond to this post but first what Bible uses "the Perfect" in 1st Corinthians 13:10?

The Perfect implies deity.

It seems you are changing the grammar of the verse to fit your theology.

What Bible translation are you using that has such verbiage?
 
I actually have witnessed and experienced physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
Getting hired at Burger King is not experiencing a physical supernatural manifestation!!!

And what you dismiss as “mundane” is God working in this world to rescue us from various problems, including disease.
God can use the mundane as He wishes but that does not make the mundane a physical supernatural manifestation.
You should be ashamed. You dishonor God by mocking His current operations. You believe in a supernatural God who has shut down His miracle shop, so now all you get is a purely natural universe operating on natural laws that any unsaved person can agree with.
God created our natural universe and He can, has and will act in a physical supernatural way to fulfill His will in this universe. But this does not excuse you from mocking the power of the Holy Spirit by calling the mundane as divine.
You think God cannot still do any miracles, mighty signs, or wonders, but you have zero support for this in scriptures. You are carnal in your understanding. Your blinded attitude is if you haven’t seen it, it cannot ever happen.
I have never made such a claim and you have zero support in the scriptures that getting a job is a physical supernatural event.

It is your carnal mind that does not understand the difference between the providential work of God and the physical supernatural intervention of the Holy Spirit.

I suggest you reread the OP.
 
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Miraculous miracles were to be seen. There are none today. Yes, miracles happen, I believe through prayer, but not the miraculous variety to be seen.
As I said if you are not seeing them maybe the issue lies with you. You are not the eyewitness of every believer. Nor are you the validator of what God has done in every people's life. That is why we are witness and testify of what we have seen. Those like you would doubt that Jesus has risen from the dead Because you did not see it . Jesus also was attacked and said Believe me for the very works that I do. And Jesus said these same works we will do. BUT because you have not seen it Jesus must have lied. What Arrogant prideful mind-set you have.
"There are none today."

Wow Hey everyone throw your bible away because one person has not seen anything. LOL.
 
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As I said if you are not seeing them maybe the issue lies with you. You are not the eyewitness of every believer. Nor are you the validator of what God has done in every people's life. That is why we are witness and testify of what we have seen. Those like you would doubt that Jesus has risen from the dead Because you did not see it . Jesus also was attacked and said Believe me for the very works that I do. And Jesus said these same works we will do. BUT because you have not seen it Jesus must have lied. What Arrogant prideful mind-set you have.
"There are none today."

Wow Hey everyone throw your bible away because one person has not seen anything. LOL.
Instead of throwing mindless insults, why don’t you just point out all of the miraculous miracles that have happened today?!
 
As I said if you are not seeing them maybe the issue lies with you. You are not the eyewitness of every believer. Nor are you the validator of what God has done in every people's life. That is why we are witness and testify of what we have seen. Those like you would doubt that Jesus has risen from the dead Because you did not see it . Jesus also was attacked and said Believe me for the very works that I do. And Jesus said these same works we will do. BUT because you have not seen it Jesus must have lied. What Arrogant prideful mind-set you have.
"There are none today."

Wow Hey everyone throw your bible away because one person has not seen anything. LOL.
Maybe you are seeing them because your definition of a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit is wrong. You are not the arbiter of what the OP meant by physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Nor are you the adjudicator of every claim of the miraculous. This is why God has given us open minds to review such claims but not so open that our brains fall out. Someone like you would have believed that Simon Magus was "someone great" and would refer to him as "the Great Power of God". And why would CS1 believe Sam Magus? Because CS1 has no discernment. Jesus also warned that "false christ and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders" but you CS1 embrace this falsehood and push the unaware toward it. BUT because of your arrogance you refuse to admit the foolishness of these baseless claim.

"Jesus must have lied." ----TruthDefender made no such statement. What a deceitful and prideful mind-set you have.

Wow, hey everyone throw away your discernment because one person thinks we cannot trust our own eyes. LOL.
 
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When you tell us that you’ve witnessed the following MIRACULOUS miracles, I’ll believe:

-raising the DEAD
-healing the LAME to walk (full recovery)
-giving sight to the BLIND
-full recovery to all kinds of DiSEASED/ illnesses
-immediate healing of BROKEN LIMBS/ BONES
-casting out DEMONS with one word
-turning water into the best WINE ever
-healing all kinds of MENTAL issues

Cheers!
So you demand that someone who is truly led by the Spirit prove themselves to you by doing every one of the miracles on your list before you will believe them. Paul never said anything of the sort. He that a true child of God will recognize his kinship with the Father by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as Romans 8:16 says:
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Proof of our relationship with Him can also be seen in how He leads and guides:
14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”…(Romans 8:14-15)

It is only through the indwelling Spirit that we can overcome the nature of sin and bear the fruit of Christ
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him
(Romans 8:5-9)

Those who believe in God often find that He in His mercy will do miracles for us. However, whether He does them or not is not the heart of our relationship with Him. Bearing the fruit of His character tells far about what God has done in us than any gift. You are introducing into this discussion preposterous propositions I doubt anyone here holds. It seems that you are more interested in proving that God is remote and uninvolved (like the God of the Deists) rather than the God Jesus proclaimed.

,
 
Maybe you are seeing them because your definition of a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit is wrong. You are not the arbiter of what the OP meant by physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Nor are you the adjudicator of every claim of the miraculous. This is why God has given us open minds to review such claims but not so open that our brains fall out. Someone like you would have believed that Simon Magus was "someone great" and would refer to him as "the Great Power of God". And why would CS1 believe Sam Magus? Because CS1 has no discernment. Jesus also warned that "false christ and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders" but you CS1 embrace this falsehood and push the unaware toward it. BUT because of your arrogance you refuse to admit the foolishness of these baseless claim.

"Jesus must have lied." ----TruthDefender made no such statement. What a deceitful and prideful mind-set you have.

Wow, hey everyone throw away your discernment because one person we cannot trust our own eyes. LOL.
You have been so deceived that you can’t see Truth when it hits you in the face. Insults much!

The Scripture gives many, many examples of miraculous miracles. Try the matching game and see if you can match today’s miracle(s) up with any of those…..

Good luck!
 
So you demand that someone who is truly led by the Spirit prove themselves to you by doing every one of the miracles on your list before you will believe them. Paul never said anything of the sort. He that a true child of God will recognize his kinship with the Father by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as Romans 8:16 says:
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Proof of our relationship with Him can also be seen in how He leads and guides:
14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”…(Romans 8:14-15)

It is only through the indwelling Spirit that we can overcome the nature of sin and bear the fruit of Christ
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him
(Romans 8:5-9)

Those who believe in God often find that He in His mercy will do miracles for us. However, whether He does them or not is not the heart of our relationship with Him. Bearing the fruit of His character tells far about what God has done in us than any gift. You are introducing into this discussion preposterous propositions I doubt anyone here holds. It seems that you are more interested in proving that God is remote and uninvolved (like the God of the Deists) rather than the God Jesus proclaimed.
Not at all! Where did you come up with this idea? I never indicated this crazy idea!! lol
No, read it again. I’m questioning whether they’ve witnessed any of those miraculous miracles that Jesus and the apostles did.

It seems you’re backed into a corner and lashing out with insults.

Where did I ever say that I don’t believe in miracles? I believe in Scripture, and in what Scripture/ God actually says, as opposed to what man thinks.
 
It has nothing to do with likes and dislikes. Lol
When a church picks and chooses its own truths and teaches those in the church to do the same, you have now come to the place of human reasoning over spiritual truth. And it'snot funny.

Yes, they are. But once again, you’re ignoring Scripture on Prophecy, Knowledge, and miraculous miracles ceasing when the “Perfect” comes (the Bible).

That is just your churches dishonest interpretation.

Nothing is my Truth, I’m speaking from Scripture. I’m merely stating the differences.

Do those beneficial things change the pattern of worship? No!

It’s only when you start changing the actual basic pattern (singing, prayer, Lord’s Supper, message in sermon), that is given by example in Scripture, that you have violated His word.

You are ignoring scripture and ignoring any question I asked regarding the Holy Spirit.

You present the truth of Jesus saying 'the blind leading the blind' And I see you are becoming irritated by saying I have violated Jesus word. I'm not responding to you further. You do not accept truth, which, you have illustrated in several threads now, so best to leave you to your stubborn deception.
 
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