Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[GWH]

I see you were talking with the guy who thinks he is groovy. He is a liar. These people have CDS
and it does not matter what you say, they will just keep coming after you for your Biblical beliefs
which oppose their opinions. I tell the truth about them out of my love and respect for the Word
of God. Their love of the Word stops at their opinions. Like with heishere? She does not believe
God is required in the process of coming to believe at all. Scripture says, the world cannot receive
the spirit of truth. Her view is, it can. Scripture says the man of flesh (unregenerated) cannot submit
to or obey God. Her view is, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things
of God. She says he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God.
She says he can. Scripture says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Her view is, it can. Scripture
says the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God. Her view is, he is not. Scripture says
the gospel is hid. She says the gospel is not hid. Jesus said not everyone hears. She says everyone hears.
Scripture says flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. She of course disagrees. The
flesh in her theology chooses to make a decision a plethora of Scriptures say it cannot, to bring forth
fruit unto life. Scripture says the devil has taken people captive to do his will. She calls this, man having
a will that is free. No matter how you look at it, her theological stance on this issue directly contradicts
and outright denies what the Bible explicitly articulates, and she is not likely to change it any time soon
because to bring her view into line with what Scripture actually teaches would bring her whole house
of cards down. and demolish her vain self-exalting stance. She cannot have that. She is far too attached
to it. One could even say she was in love with it. She certainly loves it more than the Truth of Scripture.
Her opinion is so important to her she prefers to blaspheme God than admit the Truth of Scripture and
she applauds those who do likewise.

My nickname is Groovy. Ask Mag to provide a quote of me lying.
I offended her last year and she has never forgiven me, despite my numerous apologies.

 

[GWH]

You depict God as acting and doing things the way YOU would if YOU were God.

Instead of trusting Him and His Word on the matter.

No one has yet said why some believe the Word, while others don’t.

I think I know why.

No, I believe GW teaching that God is loving and just, whereas you don't.

First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice.

TULIP teaches the opposite, thereby perverting the Gospel and warranting Paul's curse of heresy in Gal. 1:6-9.

 

[Roger316]

The order is important because we need to follow what Paul teaches and to make sure we do not change the character of God of someone who leaves people in their sin because for some unknown reason he decides to pass them over.

Your wrong soteriology changes the nature of God.

We are in the NT not the OT.

The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

This tells me that God did not create humans being from birth without the moral inability to respond positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus.. because if he had Peter would not pen these words.

I also agree that we need to follow what Paul teaches. I don't see how my view changes the nature of God. In my view, God is keeping his promises, and God wants everyone to come to repentance.

But I think our disagreement is centered on the nature of man, not the nature of God. Does the Bible teach that a person will (not can) believe the gospel apart from being born again? The answer is "yes, they can, but apart from being born again, they won't.

Jesus teaches in John 6:44 that no one is able to come to Him unless the Father first draws him, making faith not a natural human capacity but the result of God’s prior, effective action. The verb “can” (dunatai) speaks of ability, not permission, and the verb “draw” (helkō) describes a decisive pull that brings about the very movement it commands. Jesus reinforces this throughout the chapter: the Father gives a people to the Son (6:37), draws them (6:44), and grants them the ability to come (6:65), so that their coming is the effect of God’s work, not the cause of it. In Jesus’ own teaching, faith is the fruit of the Father’s initiative, the Son’s keeping, and the Spirit’s life‑giving power — a unified act of divine grace that supplies the very heart that believes.

 

[lrs68]

It was men like Noah whom God destroyed in the flood, men He created Gen 6:6-7

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

The hebrew word for man is 'āḏām mankind

You dont get it

Let a Jew explain Hebrew to You

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown.

דהַנְּפִלִ֞ים הָי֣וּ בָאָ֘רֶץ֘ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵם֒ וְגַ֣ם אַֽחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֲשֶׁ֨ר יָבֹ֜אוּ בְּנֵ֤י הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־בְּנ֣וֹת הָֽאָדָ֔ם וְיָֽלְד֖וּ לָהֶ֑ם הֵ֧מָּה הַגִּבֹּרִ֛ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר מֵֽעוֹלָ֖ם אַנְשֵׁ֥י הַשֵּֽׁם:

5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time



Notice Verse 4 the Fallen Angels came to human daughters and made Nephilim and Verse 5 is when God said He saw the evil. But it wasn't men God mentioned but God specifically mentions the DAUGHTERS of man.

Why is God mad at the DAUGHTERS of man?

They submitted to the Angels and created the Nephilim.


Also if you notice ALL of Noah's lineage before him like Seth, Enoch, Lamech, and even Methuselah were ALL DEAD!!

Only Noah was alive and immediate family from the entire lineage of Seth was left, 8 people.

Everyone else are Nephilim, Daughters of men and the lineage of Cain.



You really should learn Hebrew not just one single word before trying to teach a Jew.

 

[Roger316]

Wrong again first belief then born again.
Read the passage with the right lens.

Alright have a good day............this is the same ole, same ole, I am amazed how the same tactics (deflect, move the goal posts, mine for verses, cherry pick verses, never address the verses which support the opposite) are employed over and over again by people who take in this faulty soteriology. It is really something.

Take your time. Am I making sense?

When Jesus speaks to Nicodemus, He teaches that entrance into God’s kingdom requires a birth that comes from above — a work of the Spirit that gives a new kind of life no human can produce. Nicodemus comes with religious knowledge, but Jesus tells him that “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God,” showing that the problem is not ignorance but the condition of the heart. Flesh can only give rise to flesh; only the Spirit can create spiritual life. Jesus presses Nicodemus to see that faith itself is the result of this new birth: the Son must be lifted up, and those who believe do so because the Spirit has already breathed life into them. In this conversation, Jesus reveals that salvation is not moral improvement but divine re‑creation — God supplying the very life and capacity that makes believing possible.

When Jesus tells Nicodemus that no one can see or enter the kingdom unless he is born again, He is not merely laying out a requirement — He is explaining the very reason Nicodemus has come to Him in the first place. Nicodemus approaches Jesus with a kind of openness, humility, and spiritual curiosity that the other Pharisees lack, and Jesus treats that response as evidence that the Spirit has already begun His regenerating work in Nicodemus. The new birth is not something Nicodemus must achieve but something God must give, and the fact that Nicodemus recognizes Jesus as a teacher “come from God” shows that God has already been at work in him. Jesus is saying, in effect, that Nicodemus’s ability to perceive anything true about Him is itself the first sign of the new birth — the Spirit’s quiet, sovereign wind already blowing in his heart.

 

[Roger316]

You can maintain whatever you want ..
sanctification cannot and does not precede justification,
nor does regeneration precede justification... nowhere found in scripture.

The strategy it to map out some type of moral inability first, based on isolated verses, and then work backwards/read into the text that some type of activation must occur prior to belief, that is not handling the text correctly.

One does not become saved which is >>>> born from above/born again, and then is saved, nonsensical.

I don't see it as nonsensical. It makes perfect sense for God to create someone believing in him after he has granted the believer the ability to accept what others refuse to accept.

 

[Roger316]

I can see you are hesitant to disavow any point of TULIP, so I will go first.
I was raised in the SBC denomination, which affirms the P = OSAS, but
when I read the Bible for myself I discovered/learned the following:


Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).
Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Thus, I changed my belief from OSAS to AIP (apostasy is possible).

BTW, those who commit apostasy may be described as totally depraved or unredeemable per Heb. 6:4-6.

This leaves only two more of TULIP to disavow.

Over...

I would never affirm that apostasy isn't possible. But there is a difference between can't and won't. Doesn't the Bible define those who won't?

 

[brightfame52]

Let a Jew explain Hebrew to You

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God would come to the daughters of man, and they would bear for them; they are the mighty men, who were of old, the men of renown.

דהַנְּפִלִ֞ים הָי֣וּ בָאָ֘רֶץ֘ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵם֒ וְגַ֣ם אַֽחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֲשֶׁ֨ר יָבֹ֜אוּ בְּנֵ֤י הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־בְּנ֣וֹת הָֽאָדָ֔ם וְיָֽלְד֖וּ לָהֶ֑ם הֵ֧מָּה הַגִּבֹּרִ֛ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר מֵֽעוֹלָ֖ם אַנְשֵׁ֥י הַשֵּֽׁם:

5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time



Notice Verse 4 the Fallen Angels came to human daughters and made Nephilim and Verse 5 is when God said He saw the evil. But it wasn't men God mentioned but God specifically mentions the DAUGHTERS of man.

Why is God mad at the DAUGHTERS of man?

They submitted to the Angels and created the Nephilim.


Also if you notice ALL of Noah's lineage before him like Seth, Enoch, Lamech, and even Methuselah were ALL DEAD!!

Only Noah was alive and immediate family from the entire lineage of Seth was left, 8 people.

Everyone else are Nephilim, Daughters of men and the lineage of Cain.



You really should learn Hebrew not just one single word before trying to teach a Jew.

You still dont get it, you busy trying to explain away a plainly stated truth

 

[GWH]

I also agree that we need to follow what Paul teaches. I don't see how my view changes the nature of God. In my view, God is keeping his promises, and God wants everyone to come to repentance.

But I think our disagreement is centered on the nature of man, not the nature of God. Does the Bible teach that a person will (not can) believe the gospel apart from being born again? The answer is "yes, they can, but apart from being born again, they won't.

Jesus teaches in John 6:44 that no one is able to come to Him unless the Father first draws him, making faith not a natural human capacity but the result of God’s prior, effective action. The verb “can” (dunatai) speaks of ability, not permission, and the verb “draw” (helkō) describes a decisive pull that brings about the very movement it commands. Jesus reinforces this throughout the chapter: the Father gives a people to the Son (6:37), draws them (6:44), and grants them the ability to come (6:65), so that their coming is the effect of God’s work, not the cause of it. In Jesus’ own teaching, faith is the fruit of the Father’s initiative, the Son’s keeping, and the Spirit’s life‑giving power — a unified act of divine grace that supplies the very heart that believes.

Why do you ignore John 3:16 & 12:32?

 

[GWH]

I would never affirm that apostasy isn't possible. But there is a difference between can't and won't. Doesn't the Bible define those who won't?

Well, the Scriptures warning of the possibility of apostasy hope that the Christian readers won't.

 

[HeIsHere]

The stronger language is in Gal. 1:6-9.

Yes indeed, It seems quite clear we can draw from so many places which totally destroy the T in TULIP, where as the proponents have same tired repudiated arguments and the same cherry picked verses over and over and over again!!!

As we know without the T the rest of the system cannot stand.

Oh look it states "received"...

NOT God received for you,
NOT un-blinded you so you could receive,
NOT changed your heart so you could receive,
NOT changed you ears so you could hear and receive.

9 As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!

 

[HeIsHere]

You still dont get it, you busy trying to explain away a plainly stated truth

LOL.
The standard refrain without the poetry.

 

[HeIsHere]

I also agree that we need to follow what Paul teaches. I don't see how my view changes the nature of God. In my view, God is keeping his promises, and God wants everyone to come to repentance.

But I think our disagreement is centered on the nature of man, not the nature of God. Does the Bible teach that a person will (not can) believe the gospel apart from being born again? The answer is "yes, they can, but apart from being born again, they won't.

Jesus teaches in John 6:44 that no one is able to come to Him unless the Father first draws him, making faith not a natural human capacity but the result of God’s prior, effective action. The verb “can” (dunatai) speaks of ability, not permission, and the verb “draw” (helkō) describes a decisive pull that brings about the very movement it commands. Jesus reinforces this throughout the chapter: the Father gives a people to the Son (6:37), draws them (6:44), and grants them the ability to come (6:65), so that their coming is the effect of God’s work, not the cause of it. In Jesus’ own teaching, faith is the fruit of the Father’s initiative, the Son’s keeping, and the Spirit’s life‑giving power — a unified act of divine grace that supplies the very heart that believes.

To whom did Jesus say these words?

So Go wants everyone to come to repentance but then according to your view they won't but He only assists some to come.

Do you not see this is contradictory?

 

[HeIsHere]

Take your time. Am I making sense?

When Jesus speaks to Nicodemus, He teaches that entrance into God’s kingdom requires a birth that comes from above — a work of the Spirit that gives a new kind of life no human can produce. Nicodemus comes with religious knowledge, but Jesus tells him that “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God,” showing that the problem is not ignorance but the condition of the heart. Flesh can only give rise to flesh; only the Spirit can create spiritual life. Jesus presses Nicodemus to see that faith itself is the result of this new birth: the Son must be lifted up, and those who believe do so because the Spirit has already breathed life into them. In this conversation, Jesus reveals that salvation is not moral improvement but divine re‑creation — God supplying the very life and capacity that makes believing possible.

When Jesus tells Nicodemus that no one can see or enter the kingdom unless he is born again, He is not merely laying out a requirement — He is explaining the very reason Nicodemus has come to Him in the first place. Nicodemus approaches Jesus with a kind of openness, humility, and spiritual curiosity that the other Pharisees lack, and Jesus treats that response as evidence that the Spirit has already begun His regenerating work in Nicodemus. The new birth is not something Nicodemus must achieve but something God must give, and the fact that Nicodemus recognizes Jesus as a teacher “come from God” shows that God has already been at work in him. Jesus is saying, in effect, that Nicodemus’s ability to perceive anything true about Him is itself the first sign of the new birth — the Spirit’s quiet, sovereign wind already blowing in his heart.

Faith precedes regeneration and no one was regenerated before His death on the cross and the resurrection.

Read the whole passage.
In verses 14 through 18, Jesus makes clear that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.
The requirement of belief is presented as the immediate condition for receiving this new spiritual life.

 

[HeIsHere]

I don't see it as nonsensical. It makes perfect sense for God to create someone believing in him after he has granted the believer the ability to accept what others refuse to accept.

So then this "activation" that is required to believe can be refused, that is contrary to the doctrine of irresistible grace, if that is in fact what you are saying?

 

[HeIsHere]

No, I believe GW teaching that God is loving and just, whereas you don't.

First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice.

TULIP teaches the opposite, thereby perverting the Gospel and warranting Paul's curse of heresy in Gal. 1:6-9.

Yes somehow God being preferential and exclusionary is just and loving.

 

[HeIsHere]

I think part of our disagreement may come from using the word **sanctification** in different ways. Before I respond further, could you tell me what *you* mean by the term? How do you understand sanctification, and what role do you believe it plays in salvation? If I can understand your definition, I’ll be able to address your objection more accurately and avoid talking past you.

Hebrews 10:10
This is a positional status it means set apart comes ... this status comes after justification.. already explained why.

"By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."



Hebrews 10:14
This is the result of being positionally sanctified, it is practical sanctification living outwardly the inward new life in Christ.

"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

 

[brightfame52]

Faith precedes regeneration

How ? B4 regeneration man is dead in sin, regeneration is spiritual life and faith is a fruit of the Spirit

no one was regenerated before His death on the cross and the resurrection.

Thats foolishness, how did saints of old have faith if they were not regenerated by the Spirit ? Faith that pleases God isnt in man by nature

 

[brightfame52]

Hebrews 10:10
This is a positional status it means set apart comes ... this status comes after justification.. already explained why.

False, it sanctification comes with Justification at the death of Christ b4 regeneration, and is why they will be regenerated.

 

[HeIsHere]

How ? B4 regeneration man is dead in sin, regeneration is spiritual life and faith is a fruit of the Spirit

Thats foolishness, how did saints of old have faith if they were not regenerated by the Spirit ? Faith that pleases God isnt in man by nature

Oh yes, this is the problem your soteriology creates.

No Abraham was not regenerated but he did have faith in God and because he demonstrated his faith God declared him righteous.
Nowhere does it state that God regenerated him.

Dead in sin does not equate to being born unable to respond positively to the Good News.

You have yet to make this connection without reading it into the text.

You’re not unilaterally given life so that you can decide to come to the Giver of Life. No! You come to the Life Giver in order to GET NEW LIFE!

The idea that God has to fix you in order for you to come to Jesus is not biblical. Jesus is the fix.

We can also add.....

The idea that Adam had the power and authority to break us so we wouldn't come to Jesus, is also not Biblical.

Calvinism makes Adam more sovereign than God.