Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[GWH]

That is what the Bible states... Believe, over and over again..... and never once does it state you will be regenerated first so that can happen.

Yes, and not once does the Bible say that saving faith is a meritorious work whereby sinners merit/earn salvation
rather than God's condition for forgiveness/grace that is followed by reception of the HS and loving fruit
(Matt. 16:16, Acts 16:31, Rom. 4:1-25, 5:5, Gal. 5:6&22-23, Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[lrs68]

He drowned men [adam] who He made /created Gen 6

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

You still dont get it

You definitely fibbed using the name you chose for this site.

 

[Magenta]

Not once does thew Bible say the natural man's will is free... in fact, quite the opposite, since he is a slave to sin and captive to to the will of the devil, blinded to truth, opposed to the spiritual things of God, unable/incapable of submitting to God or obeying Him. But in the mind of free willer/Pelagian heretics that is freedom. He hears the gospel as foolishness but the foolishness of free willers is that that person will choose to believe even though Jesus said it is impossible. The natural man can no more change his God hating heart than an Ethiopian can change the colour of his skin or a leopard his spots. He is unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called.

It is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favour of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated, and really seem unable to stop ascribing to the unregenerated man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that only the regenerated person is in possession of. Some of these people are so liberated in their thinking against Biblical truth that they routinely blaspheme God and freely and repeatedly slander those they disagree with.

Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.

 

[brightfame52]

You have a lot of nerve telling God that saving faith is a meritorious work!
God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not. You, apparently not.

You a work salvation person, doing requirements, thats a debt paid salvation

 

[lrs68]

If God always is the initiater then how is it possible for man not to be free to choose when Romans chapter 1 explains God manifest Himself to them and instead of acknowledging God they purposely rejected God and therefore God gave them over to a reprobate mind.

1. God initiates
2. People are able to choose or reject God

Even when Stephen was preaching the Gospel the Bible said they heard then they shut their ears.

1. Once again, God initiated through Stephen.
2. People heard the Gospel.
3. People made a choice to reject and close their ears.

Nowhere in any Scripture does it say God made them reject God after God manifested Himself to them.

This was done by people making their own free will choice.

They could have accepted God but they decided not to.

 

[brightfame52]

People are able to choose or reject God

Man is born dead to God and cannot choose to undead themselves. While dead we automatically reject God, the True God that is. The only way men can become alive to God, is by Gods sovereign act of regeneration, quickening or being made alive. Eph 2:1-5

 

[lrs68]

Man is born dead to God and cannot choose to undead themselves. While dead we automatically reject God, the True God that is. The only way men can become alive to God, is by Gods sovereign act of regeneration, quickening or being made alive. Eph 2:1-5

I said God first initiated.

Once God does that people are free to choose for themselves just like Acts and Romans explain.

 

[GWH]

Not once does thew Bible say the natural man's will is free... in fact, quite the opposite, since he is a slave to sin and captive to to the will of the devil, blinded to truth, opposed to the spiritual things of God, unable/incapable of submitting to God or obeying Him. But in the mind of free willer/Pelagian heretics that is freedom. He hears the gospel as foolishness but the foolishness of free willers is that that person will choose to believe even though Jesus said it is impossible. The natural man can no more change his God hating heart than an Ethiopian can change the colour of his skin or a leopard his spots. He is unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called.

It is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favour of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated, and really seem unable to stop ascribing to the unregenerated man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that only the regenerated person is in possession of. Some of these people are so liberated in their thinking against Biblical truth that they routinely blaspheme God and freely and repeatedly slander those they disagree with.

Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.

Re "Not once does thew Bible say the natural man's will is free...": Untrue.
Make an artistic panel of Rom. 5:6-6:22. If that is too long, quote Rom. 5:6&15, 6:6-7 & 16-18.
Add Rom. 1:20 if there is room for reference to general revelation
and Deut. 30:19 for an OT reference.

 

[brightfame52]

I said God first initiated.

Once God does that people are free to choose for themselves just like Acts and Romans explain.

Once God iniates, one is saved, made alive

 

[GWH]

Once God iniates, one is saved, made alive

If that were true, all would be saved beginning with A&E.

 

[brightfame52]

If that were true, all would be saved beginning with A&E.

Thats a foolish unlearned statement

 

[HeIsHere]

The purpose of my reply is not to convince you but to point out to others the flaws in your logic.

No, Paul is not saying that because they were faithful that “all those who are faithful in Christ are predestined” as you stated. Ephesians 1 makes no such demand is found anywhere. If you believe it is, then please post it. In fact, Eph 1 mentions nothing of any demand in order to be placed “in Christ” other than of it being by God’s choice alone. That Paul was addressing the faithful does not mean their faithfulness was a prerequisite to be in Christ. That is a non sequitur based upon your assumption of how you would like it to read, but not upon the actual text itself. Ephesians 1:4 -5 confirms you are wrong – they tell us exactly what the basis of v4 was: solely BY CHRIST Himself.

Ephesians 1:4 tells us they were chosen from before the foundation of the world; it does not say they were placed in Christ from the before foundation of the world, meaning that they would later be placed in Christ. Being chosen and being placed in Him were by God’s two separate actions - nothing of themselves. Verse 1:4 tells us that "he has chosen us"; it doesn't say that "we caused Him to choose us", which, were it by our faithfulness, in order to be correct, it would have to say that but doesn't. Therefore, it is/was all done unilaterally by Christ. You really should read the whole chapter to gain a correct understanding, (not to mention that it is all of one complete thought from start to end) given as it completely contradicts your conclusion.

1 Corinthians 1:30–31 states plainly that it is because of God they were in Christ Jesus. The phrase “but of Him” in that verse, means that not only was their placement in Christ, but also that their being chosen in Christ was too, both are by God, nothing by man - they were two different yet directly associated actions by God. In other words, all was by God: He chose them for and He placed them in, Christ. And that is why, vs 31, can truthfully say "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord" and not "glorieth in man".

[1Co 1:30-31 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Again your interpretation pays no attention to the grammar of the passage, nor to whom the letter is addressed.

No person who handles scripture honestly, with depth of understanding, with knowledge of a Loving and Just God would ever believe that God is telling a story of how He created some special people to be saved and others selected for condemnation, based on no knowable reason but many excuses.

Regeneration (or whatever other label) before belief has been shown to be unequivocally a false doctrine
nowhere explicitly stated in scripture.

People just think if they can pile on the words like sin, evil, bad, dead, blind. fruit pulled out of context and they can create some kind of truth

Now, look at Ephesians 1 to 12 the pronoun is FIRST person plural.. so then who does that refer to Paul and the Israel.
All of the truths stated in these verses are historically significant and specific to that nation.
Note again Gentiles are nowhere included in these verses.

Then note that in Verse 13 Paul changes to SECOND person plural.

Here he is shifting to the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Gospel of the Christ Jesus

The relationship between Jews and Gentiles in the Gospel is the major theme of the Book.

Yes God elected Israel in verses 1 to 13 to serve and be a holy nation.

It was NOT a selection of individuals to eternal salvation or eternal damnation.

TULIP is done.
Context kills TULIP.

If you were wanting truth you would start from scratch and revisit all that you have been indoctrinated with ... but will you?

 

[rogerg]

Again your interpretation pays no attention to the grammar of the passage, nor to whom the letter is addressed.

No person who handles scripture honestly, with depth of understanding, with knowledge of a Loving and Just God would ever believe that God is telling a story of how He created some special people to be saved and others selected for condemnation, based on no knowable reason but many excuses.

Regeneration (or whatever other label) before belief has been shown to be unequivocally a false doctrine
nowhere explicitly stated in scripture.

People just think if they can pile on the words like sin, evil, bad, dead, blind. fruit pulled out of context and they can create some kind of truth

Now, look at Ephesians 1 to 12 the pronoun is FIRST person plural.. so then who does that refer to Paul and the Israel.
All of the truths stated in these verses are historically significant and specific to that nation.
Note again Gentiles are nowhere included in these verses.

Then note that in Verse 13 Paul changes to SECOND person plural.

Here he is shifting to the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Gospel of the Christ Jesus

The relationship between Jews and Gentiles in the Gospel is the major theme of the Book.

Yes God elected Israel in verses 1 to 13 to serve and be a holy nation.

It was NOT a selection of individuals to eternal salvation or eternal damnation.

TULIP is done.
Context kills TULIP.

If you were wanting truth you would start from scratch and revisit all that you have been indoctrinated with ... but will you?

Like I said, my reply was not to convince you.

 

[HeIsHere]

Re "Not once does thew Bible say the natural man's will is free...": Untrue.
Make an artistic panel of Rom. 5:6-6:22. If that is too long, quote Rom. 5:6&15, 6:6-7 & 16-18.
Add Rom. 1:20 if there is room for reference to general revelation
and Deut. 30:19 for an OT reference.

I know something The Bible never states..... that is that humans are born with the inability to respond positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus.

 

[HeIsHere]

Like I said, my reply was not to convince you.

Right. You have no response... it is extremely difficult to refute context I know.

 

[HeIsHere]

Okay, I wasn't sure. But what I said is relevant to my understanding of the New Testament. Paul refers to us as God's elect. By definition those who are God's elect are people he assigned to serve his son in the coming age, i.e they are granted eternal life to live in the kingdom of God. Ephesians 1:5

On the contrary, Paul explicitly says that Predestination is one of God's spiritual blessings. Ephesians 1:5

That is exactly what Paul says. The elect are chosen before the foundation of the earth. Ephesians 1:4

In Eph 1:5, the aorist participle *proorisas* (“predestining”) follows the aorist main verb *exelexato* (“he chose”), and in Greek this pattern normally expresses **means**, not **cause**. So Paul is saying that God’s choice of us was **carried out by** His act of predestining us. Predestination is not prior motivation but the mechanism of the choosing.


Paul does not say God chose those who were already “in Christ” because of their faithfulness; the grammar runs the other direction. In Eph 1:4–5, the aorist participle **“predestining”** functions instrumentally, meaning God’s choice was *accomplished by* His act of predestining, not prompted by our prior condition. To say we were “already in Christ” before God chose us reverses Paul’s order. According to the text, God’s predestining is the **means** by which we come to be in Christ, and His choosing is what results in our becoming holy, blameless, and adopted—not the reward for a faithfulness we supplied beforehand.

See post #912

 

[HeIsHere]

What about with scriptural support? What then?

Use proper hermeneutics and use it consistently.

 

[rogerg]

Right. You have no response... it is extremely difficult to refute context I know.

And it is extremely difficult for you to connect the dots - the context agrees with me not you

 

[HeIsHere]

And it is extremely difficult for you to connect the dots - the context agrees with me not you

If that makes you feel better you can believe that.

 

[HeIsHere]

TULIP in a nutshell

'Statistically, god probably hates you and you have no hope.'