More about Israel.

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Not confused about Israel, but I am confused by your comments about covenants once made it cannot be modified. Why are you arguing that with me? You are preaching to the choir about that point. What does the Moab covenant and the Sinai covenant have to do with the Abrahamic covenant? Yes, they are two covenants by Moses, but that does not mean that the sign of circumcision is not part of the Abrahamic covenant. Three separate events, three different covenants.

I keep making the point that there were two distinct covenants because you have continued to insist that there is only one "Abrahamic covenant" that was made in Genesis 15 and later modified in Genesis 17. I mentioned the Moab covenant as an scriptural example to support my point that God doesn't modify covenants he makes with his people. And now you have me really confused because you are saying the Abrahamic covenant is composed of three different covenants.

As I stated before, I will address "seed" comment you stated after we can settle that the sign of circumcision is part of the Abrahamic covenant otherwise we will talk in circles and I do not want to do that,

The reason you won't address Abraham's seed in Galatians 3:16, which is fatal to your argument, is because you are trying to control the framing that establishes the two distinct covenants God made with Abraham as one covenant, ie., the "Abrahamic covenant". That terminology, which doesn't appear in scripture, is a theological construct with a theological purpose that is not valid for the reasons I've mentioned. You are trying to get me to agree with that framing as a basis for the discussion. I don't agree with your framing and have demonstrated with scripture why. Without providing clear scriptural evidence that your framing is true, rather than just providing your opinion or appeal to authority (as you did below) your arguments are just circular reasoning.

You also stated that you "understand what people have been taught and repeat as if it's the indisputable truth, but it doesn't match what scripture says." People are not just saying this based on nothing, this is backed by Jewish scholarship, Christian Old Testament scholarship, Ancient Near Eastern covenant studies, Critical scholarship, Evangelical scholarship, and Catholic scholarship. If you would like I can cite those sources. So, are you saying that you know better than all these scholarships?

The above is an appeal-to-authority logical fallacy.

You said that I did not address your position that chapter 15 and 17 are different, but I clearly did. Restating your position that 15 and 17 are different does not disprove my points I have already presented. The burden of prove is on you now to prove that what I wrote is incorrect. I also presented my argument as to why chapter 17 is not conditional, but rather an acknowledgement to receive blessings. Yes, the people of Israel must assign themselves to circumcision before receiving the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant, just like those who have a will must sign papers before receiving their inheritance. The inheritance is unconditional; hence it is already theirs, they just need to sign the papers to claim it. The same is true with the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant. Circumcision is proof that Israel is the inheritors of those blessings just as signed papers is proof that a person is the inheritor of that will.

You really haven't scripturally addressed the points I've made. You did provide excerpts from three verses, and stated your opinion about them that they showed there was only one covenant, but I refuted your conclusions by providing the full verses and explaining that they were referring to the covenant of circumcision, not the covenant of Genesis 15. I ignored your modern day example of wills because it is irrelevant to the discussion because wills are not covenants. Furthermore, circumcision was the sign that Israel was the inheritor of the blessings of the covenant of circumcision, but not the promise of the covenant of Genesis 15. Yet you keep insisting that they were the heirs without addressing Galatians 3:16 that says they weren't; Christ alone is the heir of all of the promises because he is the firstborn.

And that is the crux of the matter. God designed everything so that no man could inherit the promises apart from Christ. Circumcision was a temporary chosenness to bring Israel to Christ, who became the firstborn and heir of all of the promises (Galatians 3:16). Now for any person to inherit the promises he must do so through faith in Christ, who will apportion to each believer their lot in the resurrection (as Joshua the firstborn, Christ's type, did when he allotted the land to the tribes of Israel). But you are trying to find a loophole for Israel to enter the sheepfold some other way by claiming they are still chosen, and using your theological construct of the "Abrahamic covenant" that robs Christ of his full inheritance to do so.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

btw @PotofSoup, I'm not saying or implying that you are intentionally or even knowingly trying to rob Christ of his full inheritance. That's simply baked into the ""Abrahamic covenant" teaching you believe.

 

[PotofSoup]

I keep making the point that there were two distinct covenants because you have continued to insist that there is only one "Abrahamic covenant" that was made in Genesis 15 and later modified in Genesis 17. I mentioned the Moab covenant as an scriptural example to support my point that God doesn't modify covenants he makes with his people. And now you have me really confused because you are saying the Abrahamic covenant is composed of three different covenants.



The reason you won't address Abraham's seed in Galatians 3:16, which is fatal to your argument, is because you are trying to control the framing that establishes the two distinct covenants God made with Abraham as one covenant, ie., the "Abrahamic covenant". That terminology, which doesn't appear in scripture, is a theological construct with a theological purpose that is not valid for the reasons I've mentioned. You are trying to get me to agree with that framing as a basis for the discussion. I don't agree with your framing and have demonstrated with scripture why. Without providing clear scriptural evidence that your framing is true, rather than just providing your opinion or appeal to authority (as you did below) your arguments are just circular reasoning.



The above is an appeal-to-authority logical fallacy.



You really haven't scripturally addressed the points I've made. You did provide excerpts from three verses, and stated your opinion about them that they showed there was only one covenant, but I refuted your conclusions by providing the full verses and explaining that they were referring to the covenant of circumcision, not the covenant of Genesis 15. I ignored your modern day example of wills because it is irrelevant to the discussion because wills are not covenants. Furthermore, circumcision was the sign that Israel was the inheritor of the blessings of the covenant of circumcision, but not the promise of the covenant of Genesis 15. Yet you keep insisting that they were the heirs without addressing Galatians 3:16 that says they weren't; Christ alone is the heir of all of the promises because he is the firstborn.

And that is the crux of the matter. God designed everything so that no man could inherit the promises apart from Christ. Circumcision was a temporary chosenness to bring Israel to Christ, who became the firstborn and heir of all of the promises (Galatians 3:16). Now for any person to inherit the promises he must do so through faith in Christ, who will apportion to each believer their lot in the resurrection (as Joshua the firstborn, Christ's type, did when he allotted the land to the tribes of Israel). But you are trying to find a loophole for Israel to enter the sheepfold some other way by claiming they are still chosen, and using your theological construct of the "Abrahamic covenant" that robs Christ of his full inheritance to do so.

btw @PotofSoup, I'm not saying or implying that you are intentionally or even knowingly trying to rob Christ of his full inheritance. That's simply baked into the ""Abrahamic covenant" teaching you believe.

Thanks, for keeping the posts consolidated, it helps keeping all the comments in one train of thought. I noticed you answered my comments at 6:30 AM eastern. Either you are an early bird, or you live in another country. In any event, not sure how you interpreted me as writing that the Abrahamic covenant are three covenants, because I did not say that. I said, the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Moab covenants are all different from each other to summarize what I said.

The will is to help you understand what is going on with the Abrahamic covenant. I don't know any modern-day examples of covenants being made in the modern world, if you do, let me know, otherwise the will is the closest thing I can think of in modern times. Yes, there not the same thing exactly, but the principles are the same, that is the point. Jesus did this many times to help others understand points.

So, I am really trying to understand what you are trying to communicate to me. You said that "God doesn't modify covenants he makes with his people", please clarify the point you are attempting to make here. By the way, your incorrect about your assumptions about controlling the framing. The reasons I stated earlier is the honest truth. Moving on to discuss the seed would deflect from the conversation of two or one covenant discussion and the last thing I think this discussion needs is to be side tracked. Unless, the seed is relevant to the discussion, it does not need to be brought up just yet.

As for the scripture you presented to me as proof that chapter 15 and 17 are different, which is the scripture? Was it chapters 15 and 17 itself? Was it what Stephen said? Was it the Moses and Moab covenants examples? If it is chapter 15 and 17 or what Stephen said, neither supports your claim of two covenants. If it is the Moses and Moab covenants, then maybe when you explain to me your point about covenants not changing you might have something.

By the way, you still did not answer the question if you believe you know better than scholarship. You seem to believe scholarship has an agenda or motive, correct? If so, please explain.

Also, I did not see your refute on my three verses since I probably missed it being that you were separating my comments earlier. My apologizes can you restate your reasoning why you think those three verses are the so-called separate covenant of circumcision? Thanks.

BTY - there is no loophole here, just presenting the truth. I have no advantage to believing that the Jews are God's chosen people as I am not Jewish. However, if anyone here is trying to create a loophole, it would appear to be you, since I have to assume you are a Gentile, therefore having every advantage to create a loophole to be the new chosen people. This craving to be God's chosen is an age-old dispute, beginning with Cain and Abel, then Issac and Ishmeal, then Esau and Jacob, then Joseph and his brothers.

Blessings

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Thanks, for keeping the posts consolidated, it helps keeping all the comments in one train of thought. I noticed you answered my comments at 6:30 AM eastern. Either you are an early bird, or you live in another country. In any event, not sure how you interpreted me as writing that the Abrahamic covenant are three covenants, because I did not say that. I said, the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Moab covenants are all different from each other to summarize what I said.

Oh OK. My misunderstanding.

You said that "God doesn't modify covenants he makes with his people", please clarify the point you are attempting to make here.

It means that God doesn't make a covenant and then come back later and say "Oh btw, I'm adding this to it now". When he wanted to do something else he made another covenant. Like the Genesis 15:18 covenant to fulfill his Genesis 12:7 promise to give the land to Abram's seed.

And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. Genesis 12:7​

​

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18​

and then the later Genesis 17 covenant of circumcision to fulfill his Genesis 12:2 promise to make Abram great and a blessing .

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: Genesis 12:2​

​

As for me, behold, my covenant with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Genesis 17:4-6​

By the way, you still did not answer the question if you believe you know better than scholarship. You seem to believe scholarship has an agenda or motive, correct? If so, please explain.

The idea of one covenant appears to have begun with Augustine, was fleshed out by Calvin, and the term "Abrahamic covenant" didn't appear until the late 17th century in the writings of Puritan commentators. As far as I can tell, atm, the earliest church fathers held no such belief. So it seems to me that it is a later theological invention. But that's not the reason for my disagreement with them; that simply re-enforces in my mind that my exegesis is correct. My disagreement with them is that their exegesis is sloppy.

Look, I'm not going to keep going over this. I don't think you've presented anything other than opinion that there was only one covenant; an opinion you learned from others that you are simply repeating. And I've made my case, sufficiently, I think. If you can't address what Paul said in Galatians 3:16, then perhaps this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.

 

[brightfame52]

And So all Israel shall be saved !


Rom 11:25-26


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All Israel is saved by God's Mystery plan and purpose, and not according to the natural mind of men.

Israel was saved by God's hardening of non elect jews, from Covenant Israel [ which were ethnic jews who were genuine believers in the messiah] and the grafting in of gentiles believers into Covenant Israel, and in this manner all Israel shall be saved, the Israel of God !

This is confirmed by the mentioning of the gentiles as entering in eiselthein


And what are they entering into ? The Covenant Israel, the Commonwealth of Israel Eph 2:12,19

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The ethnic jews who were saved !

What Paul is saying, is that Israel of promise is being saved contrary to what people think, its not by God saving all ethnic jews, but by the breaking off of the unsaved jews, and the grafting in of the saved gentiles into fellowship with the saved jews, is how God planned and purpose to save all Israel. This was a Mystery ! 3

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What Paul is saying, is that Israel of promise is being saved contrary to what people think, its not by God saving all ethnic jews, but by the breaking off of the unsaved jews, and the grafting in of the saved gentiles into fellowship with the saved jews, is how God planned and purpose to save all Israel. This was a Mystery ! 3

It was the mystery of God, the temple of God made with living stones of all ethnicities and types. When the last gentile enters, the mystery of God will be complete, the 7th trumpet will sound and the lord will return bringing all Israel with him.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7​

​

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It was the mystery of God, the temple of God made with living stones of all ethnicities and types. When the last gentile enters, the mystery of God will be complete, the 7th trumpet will sound and the lord will return bringing all Israel with him.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7​

​

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15​

When the fullness and richness of the nations have completely entered into the new covenant (Isaiah 60), then Israel will reach it's fullness, as it is written:

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that a partial blindness has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles enters in. Romans 11:25​

​

Now if their [Israel's] fall is the riches of the world, and their [Israel's] diminishing is the riches of the Gentiles; how much more will their [Israel's] fulness be? Romans 11:12​

This was prophesied by Jacob when he said the seed of Israel would become a fullness of gentiles (the name Ephraim is used synonymously with Israel in scripture)

And his father [Jacob] refused, and said, I know, my son, I know. He [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19​

which prophecy foretold the mechanism of fulfillment of God's promise to Abram

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Genesis 15:5​

​

which fulfillment began at Pentecost, has continued for two millennia and will reach its completion when the total fullness of gentiles has entered the new covenant immediately prior to Jesus' return

​

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9​

 

[brightfame52]

When the fullness and richness of the nations have completely entered into the new covenant (Isaiah 60), then Israel will reach it's fullness, as it is written:

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that a partial blindness has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles enters in. Romans 11:25​

​

Now if their [Israel's] fall is the riches of the world, and their [Israel's] diminishing is the riches of the Gentiles; how much more will their [Israel's] fulness be? Romans 11:12​

This was prophesied by Jacob when he said the seed of Israel would become a fullness of gentiles (the name Ephraim is used synonymously with Israel in scripture)

And his father [Jacob] refused, and said, I know, my son, I know. He [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19​

which prophecy foretold the mechanism of fulfillment of God's promise to Abram

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Genesis 15:5​

​

which fulfillment began at Pentecost, has continued for two millennia and will reach its completion when the total fullness of gentiles has entered the new covenant immediately prior to Jesus' return

​

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9​

Jacob prophesied the gathering of the people by Shiloh Christ Gen 49:10

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

No doubt this is the same gathering here Eph 1:10

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

And here Jn 11:51-52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Scattered abroad at the confusion of languages at Babel when the whole world was divided into nations,

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. Genesis 11:1​

Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Genesis 11:9​

and then was gathered back together into one nation and people beginning at Pentecost when the multitude out of every nation heard the disciples glorifying the wonderful works of God in their own languages.

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own language, wherein we were born? ... we do hear them speak in our languages the wonderful works of God. Acts 2:4-8, 11​

 

[PotofSoup]

Oh OK. My misunderstanding.



It means that God doesn't make a covenant and then come back later and say "Oh btw, I'm adding this to it now". When he wanted to do something else he made another covenant. Like the Genesis 15:18 covenant to fulfill his Genesis 12:7 promise to give the land to Abram's seed.

And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. Genesis 12:7​

​

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18​

and then the later Genesis 17 covenant of circumcision to fulfill his Genesis 12:2 promise to make Abram great and a blessing .

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: Genesis 12:2​

​

As for me, behold, my covenant with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Genesis 17:4-6​

The idea of one covenant appears to have begun with Augustine, was fleshed out by Calvin, and the term "Abrahamic covenant" didn't appear until the late 17th century in the writings of Puritan commentators. As far as I can tell, atm, the earliest church fathers held no such belief. So it seems to me that it is a later theological invention. But that's not the reason for my disagreement with them; that simply re-enforces in my mind that my exegesis is correct. My disagreement with them is that their exegesis is sloppy.

Look, I'm not going to keep going over this. I don't think you've presented anything other than opinion that there was only one covenant; an opinion you learned from others that you are simply repeating. And I've made my case, sufficiently, I think. If you can't address what Paul said in Galatians 3:16, then perhaps this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.

Ok, I understand now, I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand your position on chapters 15 and 17 of Genesis. First thing, while it is true that the church fathers did not engage in discussions about whether or not these events in 15 and 17 are one or two covenants, their writings did accord with the view of a one Abrahamic covenant. The funny thing though is you listed Calvin and Augustine as the sources of speaking for a one covenant versus two and they advocated replacement theology.

Anyway, when I was speaking about scholarship, I was not referring to medieval Christians figures, I was referring to modern day scholarship on the topic, and most agree with the one covenant chapters 15 and 17 interpretation. On the other hand, there is Paul Williamson’s view of two distinct but related covenants between chapters 15 and 17 of Genesis, but his view is a minority view among scholars. The vast majority view these chapters as one covenant.

Now that you have explained your position, I will explain why I agree with the majority consensus. You gave the Moab and Sinai covenants as an example, reasoning that since the Moab covenant had features of expansion and renewal from the Sinai covenant, making them separate covenants then this same principle should be applied to the chapters 15 and 17 events, since God does not change covenants.

Yes, but here are the main differences.

First difference is that the Moab covenant (Deuteronomy 29–30) clearly states that this is another covenant and the sign of circumcision does not.

Second difference is that the Israelite population that left Egypt and took on the Sinai covenant sinned against God and largely died out. Therefore, God was making another covenant with a mostly new generation of Israelites that were never present at Sinai (Deuteronomy 5:3). One the other hand, Abraham was present for the chapter 15 and 17 events, and he did not sin against God, so there was no need for another covenant.

Third difference is that Sinai occurred right after the Exodus in the wilderness. Moab occurs right before entering Canaan. The laws and instructions are reshaped and expanded for settled life in the land. Deuteronomy applies and adapts the Sinai material to this new reality. Abraham’s circumstances remained the same. Therefore, Israel at the Moab location needed an additional covenant because their circumstances had changed, whereas Abraham did not.

Moreover, Genesis 17 does not introduce new promises; it expands on the promises already given in Genesis 12 and 15. If you would like, I can break that down further. My sense, however, is that you already know these chapters well, since you seem well versed in Scripture. Though even someone who has memorized the entire Bible can still misunderstand it if they are confused about the Jews.

Ok so I also sense that you are frustrated at the conversation because you see this going in circles. So, I hope that I remedied your frustration with my talking points above. So, at this point I think I have made my points and said all that I could say about this subject unless you would like to see how Genesis 17 does not introduce new promises or if you have additional evidence for a separate covenant event?

If you don’t and you still maintain that it is two covenants, then I suppose we can continue on about your seed with the hope that we will not talk in circles if you would like. If so, then please clearly present your stance on the seed.

 

[brightfame52]

The Mystery

The use of the term mystery is quite befitting to describe that All Israel shall be saved by means of the gentiles being brought into the Faith of the Messiah, the Jewish Messiah at that !

Although they may not have been quite clear on the matter, but the True Saints of the OT like David and Isiah and the early NT saints like Simeon and others, when prophesying of the coming Messiah and or His work of salvation to Israel, they always had subjoined a reference to the gentiles as well.

Isa 49:6

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


Isa 42:6

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Luke 2:32

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

God of course would raise up Paul to further expound this Mystery ! 3

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 11:24 & Eph 2:11-13

Rom 11:24

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Eph 2:11-15,19

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;


12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man [Or Israel], so making peace;

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God [Israel];


The Israel that God loves and foreknew use to be represented by both saved and reprobated jews in the Nation of Israel, but now having broken off the reprobated jews [ The physical nation of Israel as a whole] and grafting in the saved gentiles, the Israel of God is represented by both saved jews and saved gentiles, instead of saved jews and reprobated jews. 3

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man [Or Israel], so making peace;

This is interesting. I have been wondering/praying if the word man can mean body of people, specifically in regards to the verse that mentions the man of sin, and 666, the number of man.

 

[brightfame52]

The scripture is full of the evidence that both jew and gentile would be the One People of God, the Israel of God, a Spiritual People, with no ethnic distinction.

That both would be a union of believers in Christ Gal 3:16,29

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This was predicted in the book of Gen 3:15


15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed [Christ Gal 3:16]; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Later in the book of genesis we have regarding the Sons of Noah this promise Gen 9:26-27


26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Japheth, a patriarch of the gentiles,, would dwell in the tents of shem, the father of the semitic race.

This was fulfilled with Christ death Eph 2:12-19


12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 3

 

[brightfame52]

According to scripture who is Israel ? Truly in scripture Israel can be defined in three ways. We know for one it means the physical nation of Israel, and taken alone they are not the Children of God Rom 9:8.

However in the scripture truth Israel is also applied to Jesus Christ the Son of God i.e Isa 49:3; Hos 11:1 cp Matt 2:15; and thirdly Israel refers to believers that belong to Christ, which are the seed of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise..

Just like Ishmael could not be a heir as a seed of Abraham per Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So not all of that nation of Israel was the Israel that was heir, heir of God and joint heir with Christ.

Gal 3:29 Rom 9:8 Rom 2:28-29..

Now notice this statement Rom 11:17

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

It should not be hard to conclude that a physical nation is not the subject as to being grafted into. But now the gentiles were grafted into the same tree.

Now the branches that God removed were the majority of the jews that comprised the physical nation, and gentiles as wild branches were grafted into the olive tree [Spiritual Israel] and now share the future inheritance with the saved patriarchs, the True Israel of God, the promises made to them, hence Paul's statements Eph 3:6

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 3

 

[brightfame52]

Now that its established that scripturally there are up to three different Israel's #1. The physical nation which is formulated by all the physical seed of Abraham brought out of the land of egypt and constituted a nation at Sinai ex 20. Note, within this nation was also spiritual Israel, True Believers in Christ..

#2 The Lord Jesus Christ, the servant of Jehovah Isa 49:3

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Hos 11:1 and Matt 2:15

1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Scripture refers this to Christ Matt 2:15

15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Jn 15:1

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Ps 80:8

8Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

This vine is also called my Firstborn Son Ex 4:22-23

22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

All the above is scripture witness that Jesus Christ is Israel..


#3. All believers who belong to Christ [Israel] are Israel or the seed of Abraham, the children of promise Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The physical jews from Abraham are not the children of promise Israel, but His spiritual children through Christ His seed are, which is the Israel of God which belongeth all the promises. 3

 

[brightfame52]

Now out of the 3 different Israel's that scripture confirms which Israel are the promises to ? This includes the land promise as well.

Lets first look at the promises made to Abraham, who is the representative head of both physical and spiritual seed of Israel the Father of all who believe per Rom 4:16-17

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, [Believing Israel]

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Now as we observe these promises to Abraham it is very important to see that there are two types of promises made to Abraham, those that included Him in the promise and those that did not include him.

Now lets look at one of the covenant promises to Him but did not include him !

Gen 12:6-7


6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

This is a promise to give Abraham's physical seed the land of canaan But this promise was not given to Abraham personally and it was not stated in this promise how long the physical seed of Abram would have this land.

The promise of Abraham's physical seed receiving land without Him appears again in Gen 15:18-21

18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

And again its mentioned by Abraham Gen 24:7


7The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

And again, in these references it never speaks of Abraham being made a promise to have this land, but His seed, physical descendants, and not once is it said by God for how long they would have this physical land of Canaan.

Now another covenant promise was made to Abraham in scripture which did include Him in the promise Gen 12:1-3

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 13:15-17

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Notice this promise God specifically says to Abram that He would give it personally to Abraham, and so the words to thee is used.

For this promise is to both Abraham and His seed both and the possession of this land is eternal..

This covenant promise is spoken again in Gen 17:5-8

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

For this is also confirmed to Isaac and Jacob Gen 26:1-5

1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen 28:12-15

12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

And so that's why the writer of Hebrews writes that Isaac and Jacob were heirs together of the same promise Heb 11:8-10

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

And this land, inheritance which they sought as a result of the promise was heavenly:

Heb 11:13-16

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This land or country they sought was not a physical plot of land in the middle east, but a heavenly hope, for as a result of this promise they considered themselves strangers and pilgrims of this earth, because their land promise, their country promise was heavenly..

BTW, it is this heavenly hope of the Fathers that Paul meant here in Acts 26:6-8


6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Amen, the Land, the Country that the True Fathers hoped for, was only to be attained through the resurrection of the dead, a heavenly hope, the same peter writes about 1 Pet 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This is the same promise that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had from those promises made them personally in genesis. 3

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And this land, inheritance which they sought as a result of the promise was heavenly:

Heb 11:13-16

This land or country they sought was not a physical plot of land in the middle east, but a heavenly hope, for as a result of this promise they considered themselves strangers and pilgrims of this earth, because their land promise, their country promise was heavenly..

It actually will be a "plot" of land. The father's heavenly hope was to inherit the kingdom that would come out of heaven and be established on the land they were dwelling. That will happen at the resurrection when all resurrected Israel will be restored to the land to dwell safely in forever.

 

[brightfame52]

It actually will be a "plot" of land. The father's heavenly hope was to inherit the kingdom that would come out of heaven and be established on the land they were dwelling. That will happen at the resurrection when all resurrected Israel will be restored to the land to dwell safely in forever.

Thats false.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Thats false.

I don't like getting into discussions with you because this is the way you always respond instead of pointing out what is wrong with what I said