Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[Roger316]

Need to read the entire passage and we need to note the shift in verse 13.

I totally agree. I should have expressed my agreement earlier.

Paul’s shift from “we” to “you” in Ephesians isn’t meant to divide Jews and Gentiles into separate covenant categories—it’s his gentle way of celebrating how God brought two very different groups into one family through Christ. When he says “we,” he’s speaking as a Jewish believer who first hoped in the Messiah; when he says “you also,” he’s joyfully acknowledging the Gentile believers who later heard and believed the same gospel. The choosing he describes is personal and “in Christ,” not a national covenantal status, because both groups were spiritually dead and both were made alive the same way—by grace. Paul’s whole point is that God didn’t just make a covenant with Israel; He created one new humanity in Christ, where every believer, Jew or Gentile, stands on equal ground as God’s chosen and adopted children.

 

[Roger316]

It's both

I meant these terms to be mutually exclusive. For instance, Jesus was critical because their view of God was transactional.

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Jesus exposes that the Pharisees treated obedience like a ledger — precise tithes in, divine approval out — while ignoring the weightier matters that actually reveal God’s heart. Tithing was transactional; justice, mercy, and faithfulness are relational. Jesus isn’t rejecting the practice of tithing; He’s rejecting the idea that God can be satisfied by technical compliance while the relational obligations of love go untouched. In His framing, true obedience flows from relationship: you practice justice because God is just, you show mercy because God is merciful, and you remain faithful because God is faithful.

 

[Roger316]

What is your opinion of the following interpretation?

{{{Ephesians 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that what the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1Tim. 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2Thes. 2:10).}}}

The interpretation reframes Paul’s teaching by making predestination about a plan instead of people, and by grounding inclusion in Christ in human volition rather than God’s eternal purpose. Paul, however, presents predestination as God’s gracious act toward actual believers, carried out according to His will, resulting in adoption, holiness, and the sealing of the Spirit.

I could go into more detail but that is the sum of it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I meant these terms to be mutually exclusive. For instance, Jesus was critical because their view of God was transactional.

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Jesus exposes that the Pharisees treated obedience like a ledger — precise tithes in, divine approval out — while ignoring the weightier matters that actually reveal God’s heart. Tithing was transactional; justice, mercy, and faithfulness are relational. Jesus isn’t rejecting the practice of tithing; He’s rejecting the idea that God can be satisfied by technical compliance while the relational obligations of love go untouched. In His framing, true obedience flows from relationship: you practice justice because God is just, you show mercy because God is merciful, and you remain faithful because God is faithful.

There is no relationship without the transaction. God treats sin like a ledger too until it is written off the books through Christ's death applied to every believer in baptism.

 

[GWH]

Chosen means plan and action based on foreknowledge, not selective favoritism. God has the right as creator to nurture and teach those whom he foresaw would be amenable to his spirit, and to not invest the same heavenly energy and resources in those whom he also foreknew would oppose his plans. The latter case, which is called hardening, is not choosing to harden someone because he's not loved, but to allow their nature to take its natural course and become hard and unresponsive of its own accord

That statement reminds me of a theory Augustine had that preserved MFW:

[[[God foreknows what choices the elect will freely make, so He presents them only with options regarding which they will choose those that lead to salvation.]]]

This theory preserves MFW, but it does not preserve divine love and justness.

Does yours?

 

[GWH]

Faith is not just believing, it is an action, Christ in us, we in Christ. The action is the fruit of faith. Apple will not come from berry tree.
If we produce natural apple, we are part of apple tree. That's the true faith->action.

Well, saving faith is a continuing act of will, which begins with inner conviction, repentance, conversion and SB,
then continues with outer godly works or loving fruit of the HS (Eph. 2:8-10, Gal. 5:6 & 22-23).

 

[GWH]

The interpretation reframes Paul’s teaching by making predestination about a plan instead of people, and by grounding inclusion in Christ in human volition rather than God’s eternal purpose. Paul, however, presents predestination as God’s gracious act toward actual believers, carried out according to His will, resulting in adoption, holiness, and the sealing of the Spirit.

I could go into more detail but that is the sum of it.

Well, the parts I would like more detail regarding when you have time are in bold print. Please include references to the Scripture I cited at the end, which I think guide the proper interpretation (Re sonship I should have also cited Rom. 8:9-17).

{{{Ephesians 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that what the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1Tim. 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2Thes. 2:10).}}}

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That statement reminds me of a theory Augustine had that preserved MFW:

[[[God foreknows what choices the elect will freely make, so He presents them only with options regarding which they will choose those that lead to salvation.]]]

This theory preserves MFW, but it does not preserve divine love and justness.

Does yours?

I disagree with Augustine's comment. I believe God arranges things so that people who hunger and thirst for righteousness will see him in nature and in other people, and will be drawn to him. People have a choice to choose those things that keep the heart soft and amenable to his teachings. Those who love darkness more than light will make choices that alienate them from God, which hardens their hearts. God is just to give them them what they want, ie, to not dwell in the light.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21​

 

[GWH]

I disagree with Augustine's comment. I believe God arranges things so that people who hunger and thirst for righteousness will see him in nature and in other people, and will be drawn to him. People have a choice to choose those things that keep the heart soft and amenable to his teachings. Those who love darkness more than light will make choices that alienate them from God, which hardens their hearts. God is just to give them them what they want, ie, to not dwell in the light.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:19-21​

Okay, I am glad you affirm MFW, and I can understand why you might think God would not bother to die for those He foreknew would reject Christ, although I think many Scriptures suggest that He did bother, including Matt. 13:14-15, 28:19-20, Rom. 2:3-5, 3:22-24, 5:6-8&15, 2Cor. 5:14, 1Tim. 2:6, Heb. 2:9, 1John 2:2).

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Okay, I am glad you affirm MFW, and I can understand why you might think God would not bother to die for those He foreknew would reject Christ, although I think many Scriptures suggest that He did bother, including Matt. 13:14-15, 28:19-20, Rom. 2:3-5, 3:22-24, 5:6-8&15, 2Cor. 5:14, 1Tim. 2:6, Heb. 2:9, 1John 2:2).

I didn't say or imply that he didn't die for all. He did.

 

[Roger316]

There is no relationship without the transaction. God treats sin like a ledger too until it is written off the books through Christ's death applied to every believer in baptism.

There is a ledger, yes.

 

[GWH]

I didn't say or imply that he didn't die for all. He did.

Okay, now I am glad of that. I thought you implied Christ did not die for all by saying "God has the right... to not invest the same heavenly energy and resources in those whom he also foreknew would oppose his plans." I guess I misunderstood. Sorry.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Okay, now I am glad of that. I thought you implied Christ did not die for all by saying "God has the right... to not invest the same heavenly energy and resources in those whom he also foreknew would oppose his plans." I guess I misunderstood. Sorry.

I meant after the cross.

 

[Hakawaka]

The Bible says "how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him."

How can we ignore it if the elect are guaranteed salvation and the non-elect will never believe anyways and no atonement was made for them?

How can Paul say this:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Verse 20 is completely meaningless in the Calvinist system, why beseech anyone to receive the atonement that has been made? The calvinists teach that once Jesus dies for you, its one and done, hence limited atonement cause they reason if Christ died for all, all will be saved. Atonement doesnt work like that in the Bible as these verses prove, atonement is made yet it accomplishes nothing if it isnt received or applied through faith.

Notice that in verse 19 the world already has been reconciled, so everyone should be saved, but they are not because you have to receive the atonement as in verse 20.

 

[brightfame52]

How can we ignore it if the elect are guaranteed salvation and the non-elect will never believe anyways and no atonement was made for them?

How can Paul say this:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul is writing to the elect, he called them in the first epistle the called/chosen 1 Cor 1:23-31

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So in vs 20 of 2 Cor 5 God is calling them to be reconciled to the truth of already being reconciled Vs 18-19. What most dont realize that in vs 20 "be ye reconciled" is a imperative passive voice, so God is using the preaching to begat faith in the word of truth

 

[John146]

Jesus is God’s elect.
There are elect angels.
Israel was God’s elect nation.

None to salvation. All to service God’s purpose.

 

[GWH]

The Bible says "how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him."

How can we ignore it if the elect are guaranteed salvation and the non-elect will never believe anyways and no atonement was made for them?

How can Paul say this:

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Verse 20 is completely meaningless in the Calvinist system, why beseech anyone to receive the atonement that has been made? The calvinists teach that once Jesus dies for you, its one and done, hence limited atonement cause they reason if Christ died for all, all will be saved. Atonement doesnt work like that in the Bible as these verses prove, atonement is made yet it accomplishes nothing if it isnt received or applied through faith.

Notice that in verse 19 the world already has been reconciled, so everyone should be saved, but they are not because you have to receive the atonement as in verse 20.

Exactly! It ain't rocket science,
but watch how bf will reject it by changing the subject to calling while ignoring 1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Pet 2:1-10, John 12:32, etc.

 

[brightfame52]

None to salvation

False teaching Writing the Thessalonians 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The word chosen is haireó: To take, to choose, to prefer

Here its in the middle voice, God chose them for Himself

The same as in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Also chosen to be holy and without blame is Salvation, they are without blame based on Christ Justifying them by His Blood

 

[brightfame52]

Exactly! It ain't rocket science,
but watch how bf will reject it by changing the subject to calling while ignoring 1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Pet 2:1-10, John 12:32, etc.

Those scriptures pertain only to the elect

 

[John146]

False teaching Writing the Thessalonians 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The word chosen is haireó: To take, to choose, to prefer

Here its in the middle voice, God chose them for Himself

The same as in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Also chosen to be holy and without blame is Salvation, they are without blame based on Christ Justifying them by His Blood

Paul addressing Gentiles that their salvation would come through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. That was always the plan, not of works.

Ephesians is addressing the spiritual blessings to those in Christ, not salvation. Don’t ignore the word “according “. According places the object back to what was previously stated. Not one person was chosen to be in Christ. Remove the goggles.