Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[Roger316]

Those who respond in faith to the Good News are then the ones God chooses to give His blessings.

Paul says he chose us before the foundation of the world. I didn't respond in faith until much later.

That is orthodox Evangelical Christianity, you want to go outside of proper hermeneutics that is your choice.

We're just talking here. I don't like to make arguments from grammar, but I appreciate your honest push-back. Sometimes, maybe, a grammar argument will show that I am not simply blowing smoke.

Paul’s grammar in Ephesians 1:4–5 is tightly constructed to show that God’s choice of His people is rooted in His eternal purpose, not in any foreseen human action. The main verb **ἐξελέξατο** (“He chose”) is aorist, pointing to a single, decisive act in God’s eternal counsel, and it is modified by the temporal phrase **πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου** (“before the foundation of the world”), which anchors the choosing in God’s pre‑creation decree. What follows is a chain of aorist participles—most importantly **προορίσας** (“predestining”)—which in this syntactical position normally carry an **instrumental** force. That means Paul is saying God chose us *by* predestining us, not because of anything in us. The grammar presents a unified divine action: God’s eternal choosing, God’s predestining, and God’s purpose to make us holy and blameless all belong to one coherent act of sovereign grace. You can explore this further through Ephesians 1 syntax or the parallel logic in Romans 8.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[GWH]

Paul says he chose us before the foundation of the world. I didn't respond in faith until much later.

We're just talking here. I don't like to make arguments from grammar, but I appreciate your honest push-back. Sometimes, maybe, a grammar argument will show that I am not simply blowing smoke.

Paul’s grammar in Ephesians 1:4–5 is tightly constructed to show that God’s choice of His people is rooted in His eternal purpose, not in any foreseen human action. The main verb **ἐξελέξατο** (“He chose”) is aorist, pointing to a single, decisive act in God’s eternal counsel, and it is modified by the temporal phrase **πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου** (“before the foundation of the world”), which anchors the choosing in God’s pre‑creation decree. What follows is a chain of aorist participles—most importantly **προορίσας** (“predestining”)—which in this syntactical position normally carry an **instrumental** force. That means Paul is saying God chose us *by* predestining us, not because of anything in us. The grammar presents a unified divine action: God’s eternal choosing, God’s predestining, and God’s purpose to make us holy and blameless all belong to one coherent act of sovereign grace. You can explore this further through Ephesians 1 syntax or the parallel logic in Romans 8.

Thanks for the discussion.

What is your opinion of the following interpretation?

{{{Ephesians 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that what the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1Tim. 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2Thes. 2:10).}}}

 

[Hakawaka]

Paul says he chose us before the foundation of the world. I didn't respond in faith until much later.

We're just talking here. I don't like to make arguments from grammar, but I appreciate your honest push-back. Sometimes, maybe, a grammar argument will show that I am not simply blowing smoke.

Paul’s grammar in Ephesians 1:4–5 is tightly constructed to show that God’s choice of His people is rooted in His eternal purpose, not in any foreseen human action. The main verb **ἐξελέξατο** (“He chose”) is aorist, pointing to a single, decisive act in God’s eternal counsel, and it is modified by the temporal phrase **πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου** (“before the foundation of the world”), which anchors the choosing in God’s pre‑creation decree. What follows is a chain of aorist participles—most importantly **προορίσας** (“predestining”)—which in this syntactical position normally carry an **instrumental** force. That means Paul is saying God chose us *by* predestining us, not because of anything in us. The grammar presents a unified divine action: God’s eternal choosing, God’s predestining, and God’s purpose to make us holy and blameless all belong to one coherent act of sovereign grace. You can explore this further through Ephesians 1 syntax or the parallel logic in Romans 8.

Thanks for the discussion.

The way I see it is: We are chosen IN CHRIST. If you arent in Christ, you arent chosen. I can prove nobody was in Christ before the foundation of the world, it happens in time:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

I've watched a lot of debates and comment sections and I have to commend you for being one of the friendliest calvinists i've seen. But friend, are you SURE you wanna say Jesus DIDNT die for everyone? I get chills just thinking about it

 

[Churchgoer]

Agree, all in sovereign God s plan. The only YHVH, the creator and king and savior.

 

[Hakawaka]

That is what the Bible states... Believe, over and over again..... and never once does it state you will be regenerated first so that can happen.

Better yet, WHERE IS REGENERATION in the Bible ? Its mentioned twice, yet whole books have been written about it.

 

[HeIsHere]

No you dont, nor understand what Paul wrote

Well the non Calvinist scholars do understand God's word and they are slowing demolishing this TULIP doctrine with Biblical literacy,

and by not using Biblical eisegesis which Calvinists are well known for.

 

[HeIsHere]

Better yet, WHERE IS REGENERATION in the Bible ? Its mentioned twice, yet whole books have been written about it.

View attachment 289976

Yes shows how they mine for verses, just like the word sovereignty, one would think it was on every page the way they go on about it

and then add to the fact that sovereign does not mean puppet master.

The absolute irony is Titus 3:5 does not support regeneration prior to faith and in fact this verse demonstrates that is connected to Sanctification, and most honest Calvinists will agree Sanctification cannot precede Justification... but they think they think if they use regeneration and make it separate from Sanctification then they have an argument.

Newsflash they do not!

 

[GWH]

The way I see it is: We are chosen IN CHRIST. If you arent in Christ, you arent chosen. I can prove nobody was in Christ before the foundation of the world, it happens in time:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

I've watched a lot of debates and comment sections and I have to commend you for being one of the friendliest calvinists i've seen. But friend, are you SURE you wanna say Jesus DIDNT die for everyone? I get chills just thinking about it

Yes, sinners become IN Christ via choosing (MFW/IF) to have faith IN Jesus as Messiah, the Lord incarnate.
Both IN and IF are significant/crucial little words in GW regarding salvation.

 

[GWH]

Well the non Calvinist scholars do understand God's word and they are slowing demolishing this TULIP doctrine with Biblical literacy,

and by not using Biblical eisegesis which Calvinists are well known for.

Yes, 2Cor. 10:4-5.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, 2Cor. 10:4-5.

Amen!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The way I see it is: We are chosen IN CHRIST. If you arent in Christ, you arent chosen. I can prove nobody was in Christ before the foundation of the world, it happens in time:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

I've watched a lot of debates and comment sections and I have to commend you for being one of the friendliest calvinists i've seen. But friend, are you SURE you wanna say Jesus DIDNT die for everyone? I get chills just thinking about it

Chosen means plan and action based on foreknowledge, not selective favoritism. God has the right as creator to nurture and teach those whom he foresaw would be amenable to his spirit, and to not invest the same heavenly energy and resources in those whom he also foreknew would oppose his plans. The latter case, which is called hardening, is not choosing to harden someone because he's not loved, but to allow their nature to take its natural course and become hard and unresponsive of its own accord

 

[Churchgoer]

Faith is not just believing, it is an action, Christ in us, we in Christ. The action is the fruit of faith. Apple will not come from berry tree.
If we produce natural apple, we are part of apple tree. That's the true faith->action.

 

[brightfame52]

Well the non Calvinist scholars do understand God's word and they are slowing demolishing this TULIP doctrine with Biblical literacy,

and by not using Biblical eisegesis which Calvinists are well known for.

Unfortunately you dont understand tulip truths are the Gospel of Gods Grace, you have been duped by you know who to scoff them as a mans doctrine. Im telling you all the negativity you have and say against tulip, its against God and His Gospel

 

[HeIsHere]

Unfortunately you dont understand tulip truths are the Gospel of Gods Grace, you have been duped by you know who to scoff them as a mans doctrine. Im telling you all the negativity you have and say against tulip, its against God and His Gospel

Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself. Yeah truth creates turmoil.

I have no problem denouncing a constructed god who is deliberately exclusionary and part hate and part love.

TULIP adherents cannot even tell their family members Christ Jesus died specifically for them... it is a game of wait and see it they are one of the created 'elect" for salvation.
Nobody gets saved like that.
That god is not in the Bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself. Yeah truth creates turmoil.

I'm just being honest with you, Tulip is the Gospel

 

[HeIsHere]

Paul says he chose us before the foundation of the world. I didn't respond in faith until much later.

We're just talking here. I don't like to make arguments from grammar, but I appreciate your honest push-back. Sometimes, maybe, a grammar argument will show that I am not simply blowing smoke.

Paul’s grammar in Ephesians 1:4–5 is tightly constructed to show that God’s choice of His people is rooted in His eternal purpose, not in any foreseen human action. The main verb **ἐξελέξατο** (“He chose”) is aorist, pointing to a single, decisive act in God’s eternal counsel, and it is modified by the temporal phrase **πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου** (“before the foundation of the world”), which anchors the choosing in God’s pre‑creation decree. What follows is a chain of aorist participles—most importantly **προορίσας** (“predestining”)—which in this syntactical position normally carry an **instrumental** force. That means Paul is saying God chose us *by* predestining us, not because of anything in us. The grammar presents a unified divine action: God’s eternal choosing, God’s predestining, and God’s purpose to make us holy and blameless all belong to one coherent act of sovereign grace. You can explore this further through Ephesians 1 syntax or the parallel logic in Romans 8.

Thanks for the discussion.

Need to read the entire passage and we need to note the shift in verse 13.

 

[HeIsHere]

Calvinism says that only those created with faith to respond to the Gospel can be saved


The Bible says Romans 1:16 (KJV)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Clearly meaning that "believe" is something we do in response to power of God found in the Gospel message.

 

[Roger316]

What is your opinion of the following interpretation?

{{{Ephesians 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that what the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1Tim. 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2Thes. 2:10).}}}

I am working on a time sensitive project at the moment. I would like to respond to this later when I get time.

 

[Roger316]

The way I see it is: We are chosen IN CHRIST. If you arent in Christ, you arent chosen. I can prove nobody was in Christ before the foundation of the world, it happens in time:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

I've watched a lot of debates and comment sections and I have to commend you for being one of the friendliest calvinists i've seen. But friend, are you SURE you wanna say Jesus DIDNT die for everyone? I get chills just thinking about it

Thanks for your kind words.

Well, either we were chosen individually, or we weren't chosen at all. So if you mean we were chosen as individuals before the foundation of the earth and then placed into Christ in the future, then I agree.

Regarding the crucifixion, we need to be careful what we mean by "die for." It speaks to our picture of the atonement. Is Salvation transactional or relational? Many classic atonement theories treat salvation as a transaction—a payment made, a debt settled, a penalty transferred—rather than a relationship restored. They frame the cross as an economic exchange between God and humanity, but Scripture presents it as God personally reconciling people to Himself, drawing them into communion rather than completing a legal or financial deal.

So we must be careful to avoid that mistake.

We could discuss the atonement in another thread if you like. But we must be sure that our theory of the atonement aligns with Jesus' central role as the savior and the most significant aspect of his role is the fact that HE chooses who will be saved.

I hate quoting verses out of context, but this should suffice as a reminder. The clearest place where Jesus explicitly claims that salvation is His personal choice —that He Himself determines who receives eternal life—is John 5:21:

“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He will.

That phrase “to whom He will” is the strongest, most direct statement in the New Testament that Jesus personally decides who receives saving life.

Below are the other passages where Jesus makes the same claim in different ways.

John 17:2 — Jesus has authority over all humanity
“You have given Him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.”
Jesus gives eternal life selectively, to those the Father has given Him.

John 6:37 — All the Father gives will come
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me…”
Coming to Christ is the result of being given to Him.

John 10:26–28 — Jesus distinguishes His sheep from others
You do not believe because you are not My sheep… I give them eternal life.”
Belief flows from being His sheep; eternal life is given only to them.

Matthew 11:27 — Jesus chooses whom to reveal the Father
“…no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.”
Revelation is the gateway to salvation; Jesus chooses who receives it.

Luke 10:22 — Parallel passage
Same claim: revelation (and thus salvation) is by Christ’s choice.

John 14:6 — Jesus is the exclusive gate
“No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
This is not just exclusivity; it implies control over access.

John 6:44 — No one can come unless drawn
Jesus controls the drawing; therefore He controls who comes.

John 5:21 — “The Son gives life to whom He will.”
This is Jesus saying: “I choose.”

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Is Salvation transactional or relational?

It's both