Dysfunctional Faith-Alone justification

[Inquisitor]

@Inquisitor

about obedience is the fruit;

John 15:1-7 is often quoted to speak about faith and remaining in Christ, but Jesus Himself connects abiding in Him with obedience.

First, notice what Jesus says:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman... Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away... Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.” (John 15:1, 2, 4 ASV)

Jesus teaches that a person must remain connected to Him, just as a branch remains connected to the vine. A branch that does not bear fruit is removed. The question then becomes: How do we abide in Christ?

Jesus answers that only a few verses later:

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10 ASV)

This is the direct explanation of what abiding means. To abide in Christ is not merely to believe that He exists or to make a profession of faith. It is to continue in His words and keep His commandments. Jesus points to His own example: just as He remained in the Father's love by keeping the Father's commandments, His disciples remain in His love by keeping His commandments.

This agrees with what Jesus taught earlier:

“If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15 ASV)

And:

“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me.” (John 14:21 ASV)

And:

“If a man love me, he will keep my word.” (John 14:23 ASV)

So when Jesus speaks about bearing fruit in John 15, He is not speaking about a fruit that appears apart from obedience. The fruit comes because the branch remains attached to the vine, and remaining attached to the vine means continuing in His teachings and obeying His words.

This is why Jesus also says:

“If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.” (John 15:7 ASV)

Notice that Jesus does not simply say, "If you believe in Me." He says, "if My words abide in you." His words must remain in the heart and be lived out. Obedience is not separated from abiding; it is part of abiding.

The same truth appears elsewhere in Jesus' teaching:

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46 ASV)

And:

“Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock.” (Matthew 7:24 ASV)

John 15 therefore presents a simple but powerful picture: Christ is the vine, His followers are the branches, and the evidence that a branch is truly abiding in Him is that it bears fruit. According to Jesus' own explanation, this abiding is expressed by keeping His commandments, letting His words remain in us, and continuing faithfully in what He taught. A branch that refuses to remain in His words cannot continue to bear fruit, because obedience and abiding are inseparably connected in the teachings of Christ.

I think you're pointing to a distinction that is often missed in both Catholic–Protestant debates.

If we stay strictly within Scripture, especially the Johannine writings (John's Gospel and 1 John), the issue is not really:

Law vs. grace

Ten Commandments vs. faith

Catholic vs. Protestant

Rather, it is:

Old Covenant commandments (Sinai)
versus
New Covenant commandments (Christ)

And then a further question:

Is the "fruit" of John 15 primarily moral works, or is it the manifestation of the Spirit's life?

The New Covenant Commandment​

Jesus does not say in John 15:

"This is my commandment: keep the Ten Commandments."

He says:

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

Then John later writes in 1 John.

"This is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another."

(1 John 3:23)

If Scripture is allowed to define Scripture, John's definition of Christ's commandment is remarkably simple:

1. Believe in the Son.
2. Love one another.

Not Sinai.
Not the Ten Words.
Not the Mosaic code.


Those may still contain moral truth, but John does not define Christ's commandment that way.

---

What Is the Fruit?​

This is where a significant divide appears.


Many Catholics and Protestants alike tend to read "fruit" as:

• Good works
• Moral behavior
• Acts of charity
• Obedience

But another Scripture-only reading asks:


Where does Scripture explicitly define spiritual fruit?


The clearest definition is in Epistle to the Galatians 5:

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Notice that these are not activities.


They are qualities produced by the Spirit.


The text does not call feeding the poor "fruit."


It calls love fruit.


It calls joy fruit.


It calls peace fruit.


It calls patience fruit.


The works may flow from the fruit, but they are not themselves identified as the fruit.

---

The Catholic and Protestant Tendency​

Despite their disagreements on salvation, Catholics and many Protestants often end up very close together here.


They commonly interpret fruit as:

• Visible deeds
• Moral performance
• External obedience
• Service

The difference is usually over why those works matter.


Catholics:

• Works participate in sanctification.

Protestants:

• Works demonstrate genuine faith.

But both frequently focus on observable conduct.

---

The Spiritual Reading​

A more spiritual or mystical reading stays closer to John's language and Paul's definition of fruit.


The sequence becomes:


Abide in Christ → Receive the Spirit → The Spirit produces fruit → Fruit naturally produces works.


In this view:

• Fruit is not the work.
• Fruit is the inner life of Christ manifested through the Spirit.

A person can perform many religious works and still lack the fruit.


This is why Paul can say one may:

• speak in tongues,
• prophesy,
• move mountains,

and yet lack love.


The activity exists.


The fruit does not.

---

The Gulf​

So the deepest gulf may not be Catholic versus Protestant.


It may be:

Institutional Reading​

Commandments:

• Obedience requirements.
• Often understood through church teaching or moral law.

Fruit:

• Observable works and conduct.

Spiritual/New Covenant Reading​

Commandment:

• Believe in Christ.
• Love as Christ loved.

Fruit:

• The life of the Spirit manifested within the believer.
• Love, joy, peace, patience, and the other qualities that the Spirit Himself produces.

Works are then the result of fruit, not the fruit itself.

End AI.

So Catholics and Protestants are very, very, similiar.

There both wrong.

 

[Dino246]

True. Dysfunctional faith alone justification without works is not Bible.

1 Cor{14:33}
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

You demonstrate a Liberal capacity to avoid accountability.

 

[Inquisitor]

I disagree:

"Only two options are made: either justification by faith alone without works, Or salvation by works alone."

Save by Grace through faith. and I would like to know what isa work no one has been able to tell me .

It seems some what to force the two position only as id it must be one or the other. What about both ?

I will answer your question about "works".

According to James the work is this.

If your sitting on a stool in a church and you have a rich man at your feet. But a poor man at the back of the church.

“You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,” (James 2).

The work is the correct placement of the rich and poor in church.

So don't say that no one has told you ever again what "work" means.

 

[CS1]

I will answer your question about "works".

According to James the work is this.

If your sitting on a stool in a church and you have a rich man at your feet. But a poor man at the back of the church.

“You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,” (James 2).

The work is the correct placement of the rich and poor in church.

So don't say that no one has told you ever again what "work" means.

That seems like you are allegorizing. What is a work? Give poor man your seat in church is a work? It seems that verse would be more to a pastor who was treating a rich man better because he give more. Please provide a verse or passage that speaks to what a work is . Thank you.

 

[2Christ]

You may be misunderstanding tow words in John 15.

Your reply was a typical Catholic reply because they interpret John 15 the same way.

I asked AI and restricted AI to just the Scripture, this means that the reply will not contain Catholic theology.

Scripture only!

What is the "fruit" in John 15?

While the text does not list specific items like a grocery list, Scripture defines "fruit" as the visible evidence of an internal
connection to the "True Vine" (John 15:1). Evidence of Discipleship: Bearing "much fruit" is how a believer proves they are a
disciple and brings glory to God (John 15:8).

The Fruit of the Spirit: Though found in Galatians 5:22-23, many scholars link the fruit in John 15 to these inward character traits (love, joy, peace, etc.) produced by the Holy Spirit.

Lasting Impact: Jesus refers to fruit as something that "should remain," often interpreted as the eternal results of spiritual labor,
such as bringing others to Christ (John 15:16).

Character and Actions: It encompasses the accumulation of a person’s conduct, attitudes, and actions that align with God's will.

What are His "Commandments"?

In this specific discourse, Jesus moves from the general concept of "commandments" to a specific "New Commandment".

The Singular Command: Jesus explicitly states, "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you" (John 15:12).

The Standard of Love: This goes beyond "loving your neighbor as yourself." The new standard is sacrificial love, modeled by Jesus laying down His life (John 15:13).The Connection to Obedience: Keeping these commandments is the requirement for "abiding in His love," just as Jesus kept the Father’s commandments (John 15:10).

End AI.

Throw the Catholic books in the bin.

are you afraid of scripture? ill reply back bit later its late for me here. as for throwing any catholic books in the trash it was done a very long time ago.

 

[Inquisitor]

That seems like you are allegorizing. What is a work? Give poor man your seat in church is a work? It seems that verse would be more to a pastor who was treating a rich man better because he give more. Please provide a verse or passage that speaks to what a work is . Thank you.

I was joking.

 

[DavidLamb]

I believe that a person can have faith by taking the name Christian, but at the same time not living the faith; being a hypocrite. I have known many people to say they’re “Christian”, while not living it.

Unfortunately, weren’t many of us hypocrites in college (back in the day)?

If a person just takes the name "Christian", that person doesn't have faith.

 

[2Christ]

I think you're pointing to a distinction that is often missed in both Catholic–Protestant debates.

If we stay strictly within Scripture, especially the Johannine writings (John's Gospel and 1 John), the issue is not really:

Law vs. grace

Ten Commandments vs. faith

Catholic vs. Protestant

Rather, it is:

Old Covenant commandments (Sinai)
versus
New Covenant commandments (Christ)

And then a further question:

Is the "fruit" of John 15 primarily moral works, or is it the manifestation of the Spirit's life?

The New Covenant Commandment​

Jesus does not say in John 15:




He says:




Then John later writes in 1 John.




If Scripture is allowed to define Scripture, John's definition of Christ's commandment is remarkably simple:

1. Believe in the Son.
2. Love one another.

Not Sinai.
Not the Ten Words.
Not the Mosaic code.


Those may still contain moral truth, but John does not define Christ's commandment that way.

---

What Is the Fruit?​

This is where a significant divide appears.


Many Catholics and Protestants alike tend to read "fruit" as:

• Good works
• Moral behavior
• Acts of charity
• Obedience

But another Scripture-only reading asks:


Where does Scripture explicitly define spiritual fruit?


The clearest definition is in Epistle to the Galatians 5:




Notice that these are not activities.


They are qualities produced by the Spirit.


The text does not call feeding the poor "fruit."


It calls love fruit.


It calls joy fruit.


It calls peace fruit.


It calls patience fruit.


The works may flow from the fruit, but they are not themselves identified as the fruit.

---

The Catholic and Protestant Tendency​

Despite their disagreements on salvation, Catholics and many Protestants often end up very close together here.


They commonly interpret fruit as:

• Visible deeds
• Moral performance
• External obedience
• Service

The difference is usually over why those works matter.


Catholics:

• Works participate in sanctification.

Protestants:

• Works demonstrate genuine faith.

But both frequently focus on observable conduct.

---

The Spiritual Reading​

A more spiritual or mystical reading stays closer to John's language and Paul's definition of fruit.


The sequence becomes:


Abide in Christ → Receive the Spirit → The Spirit produces fruit → Fruit naturally produces works.


In this view:

• Fruit is not the work.
• Fruit is the inner life of Christ manifested through the Spirit.

A person can perform many religious works and still lack the fruit.


This is why Paul can say one may:

• speak in tongues,
• prophesy,
• move mountains,

and yet lack love.


The activity exists.


The fruit does not.

---

The Gulf​

So the deepest gulf may not be Catholic versus Protestant.


It may be:

Institutional Reading​

Commandments:

• Obedience requirements.
• Often understood through church teaching or moral law.

Fruit:

• Observable works and conduct.

Spiritual/New Covenant Reading​

Commandment:

• Believe in Christ.
• Love as Christ loved.

Fruit:

• The life of the Spirit manifested within the believer.
• Love, joy, peace, patience, and the other qualities that the Spirit Himself produces.

Works are then the result of fruit, not the fruit itself.

End AI.

So Catholics and Protestants are very, very, similiar.

There both wrong.

AI will not help you, use your head instead.

 

[Proximus]

Demonic faith as in dead faith that both men and devils have, who do believe in the true God and Christ, but do not live by His commandments:

I'd rather use the expression the Lord God Jesus Christ, because after the Resurrection the union was complete, and thus the one who sees Him, sees the Father Himself, for the Lord has fully glorified, or made divine, His Human. So, so our God is Jehovah Himself in His Divine Human, that is, Jesus Christ is that the only one "Jehohav our Righteousness".

 

[Proximus]

Paul is only empathizing with Christians who find themselves double hearted, still having a desire to please God, but still displeasing Him in works. He's not preaching such fruitless faith for life, as the normal Christian experience.

In preaching the justificaiton without the works, it was clear in context that only the circumcision is meant, because othewise he would not have preached in other places that God would judge men by their works. Theoretically he could have been so contradictory, if he was not sane in the rational, but he appeared to be rational.

With regard to his internal man being pleased with the commandments, while the external man not pleased, he was basically setting himself as an example of man, in whom the flesh is not wiling to act according to the spirit, thus, that the flesh, or the natural man, is not delighting in the spiritual-moral commandments, and life according to those.

The remedy to that by "faith-alone" would like a man, who is taking drugs, and thinks that the historical knowledge that the Lord suffered for him once, is going to miraculously set him free. It won't. Only the determination to accept the Lord in the Word, and following Him by shunning those things as evils as sins will help, that is, the Lord will help through those.

And this is with regard to every particular of the worship of one's own self and the world, thus, when the status and gains are considered as the idol-like goals of life.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In preaching the justificaiton without the works, it was clear in context that only the circumcision is meant, because othewise he would not have preached in other places that God would judge men by their works. Theoretically he could have been so contradictory, if he was not sane in the rational, but he appeared to be rational.

It appears we view his similarly. When Paul mentioned works he was referring to works of the law, not works of faith. He definitely wasn't referring to doing the hard work of putting the flesh to death through the spirit.

 

[TruthDefender]

If a person just takes the name "Christian", that person doesn't have faith.

Right! He is considered a hypocrite, just a name on paper.

 

[CS1]

I was joking.

I was not still want to know ?

 

[TruthDefender]

If a person just takes the name "Christian", that person doesn't have faith.

I believe they could have faith, but aren’t willing to live by it.

Many people seemingly believe in God, but aren’t willing to live The Way. They have one foot in the world and one foot in a church; they’re sitting on the fence which belongs to Satan.

 

[Inquisitor]

I was not still want to know ?

27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

 

[Inquisitor]

AI will not help you, use your head instead.

Did you read the post?

 

[CS1]

27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

so visiting orphans an taking care of widows are the works we are to do? Jesus the works I do you will do also and greater Because he goes to the father. What works was he talking about ?

 

[Inquisitor]

so visiting orphans an taking care of widows are the works we are to do? Jesus the works I do you will do also and greater Because he goes to the father. What works was he talking about ?

The perfect Christian life is a life devoted to the most defenceless in all of society and especially the orphans.

I am just generating ideas for you.

I don't believe we are saved by anything (legal works or righteous works) we can do.

I believe that our salvation is by grace and belongs to Jesus alone.

Salvation is a free gift from start to finish.

 

[Proximus]

It appears we view his similarly. When Paul mentioned works he was referring to works of the law, not works of faith. He definitely wasn't referring to doing the hard work of putting the flesh to death through the spirit.

Indeed, putting the flesh through the spirit is not possible from the active co-cooperation with the Lord, namely, doing the particularly of the Ten Commandmets, and those of the New Testament, involving the trials, etc, while attributing all the Merit to the Lord Alone.

It is still a wonder how it can be that masses of people could have preached that the faith is saved without shunning evils as sins, or did they repeat those formulas without even thinking, being simply under the sway of persuasive propaganda?

 

[legion]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses:

Acts 14:21-22 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 20:24-25 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.

Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

Paul never taught the law of moses. He used it as a starting point to bring his listeners into the knowledge of Jesus saving grace through Faith alone. He was jewish so he kept the customs just like Jesus. But he did not promote it as a nessessity for salvation or a relation with God.