after death

[jlcoon]

I get confused about life after death, the bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, but it also says when the end comes the dead in christ shall arise first . and while on the cross jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise. which is it because i've heard different preachers disagree on this subject.

 

[Thaddaeus]

I get confused about life after death, the bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, but it also says when the end comes the dead in christ shall arise first . and while on the cross jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise. which is it because i've heard different preachers disagree on this subject.

come on think alittle here, do you really believe at death your physical body is in the presence of the Lord or does it go to the grave or to ashes. your spirit leaves your body at death and your fleshly body goes to the grave or is burned. actaully the verse you are referring to has some debate around it for look at the wording
2co 5:8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Paul Is saying that he would RATHER be with the Lord than to be in the Body. some will preach that Paul was not stating a doctrine of being with the Lord at the moment of death, but saying that he would rather be with God than to be in the Body. But I still believe that our spirit does go to be with the Lord at death of the Physical body as far as the rasing on the last day this referrs to our old flesh bodies will be raised and changed into a new body. 1co 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.1co 15:51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,1co 15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Out of body, near death and back from the dead experience stories I've read indicate the spirit does leave the body and leave the body behind. In your spirit form floating around you get to see your dead body laying there and you may not even realise you are dead. You're a ghost type being with feelings, thoughts, but you can't see yourself, ok maybe a pale white ghost like image of yourself. Angels will grab you by your spiritual arms and take you where you gotta be. You're not complete of course you need a body and that's what the resurrection is for. I believe the spirit floats down from heaven present with the Lord (or wherever it was) and enters into your body and bingo you raise up from the dead. I believe that it truly is like a "putting off" the body, like a change of clothes. Your body isn't you, it's just your shell. Life is more than the body, as I think Jesus said. Because your real life is the soul/spirit.

2Pe 1:14 I know that I shall soon put off this mortal body, as our Lord Jesus Christ plainly told me.

The body was his present home of his spirit. When his mortal body is put off (he means he is going to die), his spirit leaves his home and goes somewhere else. At the resurrection the spirit is given a new home again. I think both saint and sinner has this happen to them. And then I believe, if you are sentenced to the Lake of Fire you get to experience the second death which is both body AND soul. That's my beliefs about this.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Yes here it is, the verse: both the just and unjust get resurrected, so I take this to mean not just christians are raised from the dead, but everyone.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The Pharisees in Jesus's time believed in an immortal soul and that it existed in a future state.


Imagine that , everyone from Nero, Cleopatra, Hilter, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc, will be raised up from the dead and you might get to see them. Then they get thrown into the Lake of Fire. The first death, only the body dies. The second death, both body and soul die. This Lake of Fire is something that can destroy not just physical bodies but also destroy spiritual bodies too. That's why the devil and all his angels, demons and other evil spiritual creatures will be cast into the Lake of Fire, the Lake of Fire can destroy them for good. Other people believe the spiritual bodies will be floating around in the lake of fire being tortured forever but I dont believe that, i think a death of the soul is a cease to exist , not a torture of the soul.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Then they get thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Sorry, I should say, they get judged, and then thrown into the Fire.

 

[MahogonySnail]

We know that whole bodies are cast into hell (i.e. the resurrected bodies and soul of the wicked) because Jesus referred to the bodily objects being thrown into hell like hands , feet, eyes etc.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Actually, death of the soul doesn't necessarily mean a "cease to exist", it can mean a loss of some kind, or a state of torment. This fits with what Jesus said about hell:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[swat4christ]

I get confused about life after death, the bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, but it also says when the end comes the dead in christ shall arise first . and while on the cross jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise. which is it because i've heard different preachers disagree on this subject.

Good morning. Confusion comes from lack of understanding. To begin with, we must be able to distinguish between the body and soul. Upon death, THE SOUL of the believer departs to be with the Lord as clearly stated in Scripture. 2 Timothy 4:6; Philippians 1:21-23; 2 Corinthians 5:8. However, THE BODY of the believer goes to the grave awaiting the resurrection. You will also clearly see this in Scripture in the passages of Philippians 3:21, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. So, for the believer, after death THE BODY SLEEPS awaiting the resurrection, but THE SOUL LIVES in the presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I hoped this helped. I be more than happy to answer any further questions.

God Bless,

Gary

 

[Thaddaeus]

Yes here it is, the verse: both the just and unjust get resurrected, so I take this to mean not just christians are raised from the dead, but everyone.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The Pharisees in Jesus's time believed in an immortal soul and that it existed in a future state.


Imagine that , everyone from Nero, Cleopatra, Hilter, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc, will be raised up from the dead and you might get to see them. Then they get thrown into the Lake of Fire. The first death, only the body dies. The second death, both body and soul die. This Lake of Fire is something that can destroy not just physical bodies but also destroy spiritual bodies too. That's why the devil and all his angels, demons and other evil spiritual creatures will be cast into the Lake of Fire, the Lake of Fire can destroy them for good. Other people believe the spiritual bodies will be floating around in the lake of fire being tortured forever but I dont believe that, i think a death of the soul is a cease to exist , not a torture of the soul.

wow great verse but in 1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
only the dead in christ shall be rised first proving there is two seperate events , thank for that verse will have to remember that one

 

[Thaddaeus]

We know that whole bodies are cast into hell (i.e. the resurrected bodies and soul of the wicked) because Jesus referred to the bodily objects being thrown into hell like hands , feet, eyes etc.

Mar 9:43Andifthyhandoffendthee,cut it off:itisbetterfortheetoenterintolifemaimed,thanhavingtwohandstogointohell,intothefirethatnever shall be quenched:

Actually, death of the soul doesn't necessarily mean a "cease to exist", it can mean a loss of some kind, or a state of torment. This fits with what Jesus said about hell:
Mar 9:44Wheretheirwormdiethnot,andthefireisnotquenched.

sorry snail but where does it say that these body parts are thrown into hell?

 

[imoss]

to me its irrelevant. present with the Lord immediately (which btw i happen to believe) or soul sleep... either way I will die of this body & my next moment in my conciousness will be with the Lord... even if my uncle happens to be right and theres a soul sleep and then a resurrection of the soul with the body or if i'm right and i'm immediately present with the Lord... it doesnt matter to me one little bit cause its win win when you got Jesus as Lord and savior... the only losers i suppose are those left mourning the deceased Christian... its easier to mourn if you think your loved one is present with the Lord immediately, than to mourn thinking their soul is hanging in the grave or wherever they died awaiting the resurrection. The greatest comfort of all though is knowing your family member has received the grace of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus and is not headed to Hell. Suppose thats the best gift my mom ever gave me in her life, the knowledge of her faith in Jesus upon her death.

Oh... other losers might be the unbelievers in the livingroom listening to the Christians argue soul sleep doctrine...

 

[swat4christ]

to me its irrelevant. present with the Lord immediately (which btw i happen to believe) or soul sleep... either way I will die of this body & my next moment in my conciousness will be with the Lord... even if my uncle happens to be right and theres a soul sleep and then a resurrection of the soul with the body or if i'm right and i'm immediately present with the Lord... it doesnt matter to me one little bit cause its win win when you got Jesus as Lord and savior... the only losers i suppose are those left mourning the deceased Christian... its easier to mourn if you think your loved one is present with the Lord immediately, than to mourn thinking their soul is hanging in the grave or wherever they died awaiting the resurrection. The greatest comfort of all though is knowing your family member has received the grace of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus and is not headed to Hell. Suppose thats the best gift my mom ever gave me in her life, the knowledge of her faith in Jesus upon her death.

Oh... other losers might be the unbelievers in the livingroom listening to the Christians argue soul sleep doctrine...

I like what you had to say. A great deal of truth and I appreciate your passion of expression. However, the doctrinal truth of every topic is quite important. 1 Timothy 2:4 instructs us that it is God's will for us to be saved AND to come to the knowledge of the truth. Truth sets us free. Fundamentally, all matters of faith and life come down to knowing what is TRUE and then acting on that truth. Having said that, I want to reiterate that your response had a great deal of wisdom in it. I appreciated it and YOU.

God bless.
Gary
Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[NoahsDad]

. You're not complete of course you need a body and that's what the resurrection is for. I believe the spirit floats down from heaven present with the Lord (or wherever it was) and enters into your body and bingo you raise up from the dead. I believe that it truly is like a "putting off" the body, like a change of clothes. Your body isn't you, it's just your shell. Life is more than the body, as I think Jesus said. Because your real life is the soul/spirit.

.

what if youre cremated?

 

[MahogonySnail]

sorry snail but where does it say that these body parts are thrown into hell?

Ok, let's put our thinking caps on:

Mar 9:43 And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Jesus is saying, it's better to enter into life without a hand, than to be cast into hell having two hands.

I interpret this to mean, that a person's physical body is cast into hell, with their two hands intact. Jesus doesn't say that only souls are cast into hell.Therefore the people who are thrown into hell must have bodies, not just souls. That's how I see it, others may see it differently.

Do a word for search for soul + hell, and the type of hell referred to where the soul is, is hades or shehole, (eg Acts 2:27) not gehenna.

The hell in Mark 9:43 is gehenna, which I believe is the Lake of Fire, the second death, where both body and soul is thrown into hell. This is the same gehenna Jesus speaks about in:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


So what I get from scripture is that the hell where the souls after death, is hades or sheol. (and I probably got those spelt wrong or mixed up). The hell where both body and soul is destroyed (not just soul) is gehenna, otherwise known as the Lake of Fire or the "second death".

 

[MahogonySnail]

what if youre cremated?

No idea. Even a person who is not cremated, in enough years their bones are going to be dust anyway. Do we get a new body, or does God resurrect our old body, and then transform it (i.e. glorify it), like he did with Jesus?
God can put ashes back together again I'm sure.

 

[MahogonySnail]

only the dead in christ shall be rised first proving there is two seperate events , thank for that verse will have to remember that one

Yes, dead in Christ rising first, so the just are raised first, to be judged (believeres judgement for rewards etc) and glorified, and then later on the unjust are raised from the dead too, to be judged.

So the order of resurrections is like this, firstly
1. the dead in Christ are raised first
2. The living in Christ are caught up in the air with the ones raised.
3. The dead not in Christ are raised.

Let's think about why the dead in Christ are raised first before the dead "not in Christ" are raised. I believe it is because the dead in Christ after they are resurrected, (aka the saints) will be judging the unbelievers and the world:

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 

[MahogonySnail]

I could add a fourth one there,
4. The living not in Christ, are also taken away I guess by the angels for judgement.

 

[imoss]

Hello Gary ... I've researched this and found biblical truth to both positions... I have family members who are adventist & family members who are pentecostal. Personally I lean more towards present with the Lord because of what Christ said to the thief on the cross... he didnt need to actually speak those words & the reason, I believe, he spoke them were to benefit those present and not just the thief... for in a moment the thief would know where he was anyhow so the words, in my opinion were for the living. Its one of those issues that i've spent hours pondering & then i had a revelation... it really doesnt matter to me cause either way its not going to effect me in death & it really doesnt effect me in life with the exception of how I grieve the loss of my beautiful Christian family members and friends. Its also quite sad to see the beautiful Christians who I love, in my family, passionately debating these issues, while the unbelievers sit in the other room thinkin... we want nothin to do with the whole christianity thing, look at arguing. they receive the righteous indignation as anger and it makes us look bad as people who are to let their light shine among men. I believe this forum is a place to debate such things, or if you are together with other believers it is absolutely prudent to give righteous rebuke. I think we need to let our light shine though and set these debates aside when we are in the company of unbelievers, we should unite in our belief in Christ as our risen Lord and savior... of course if someone deny's Christ as risen Lord then immediate rebuke is necessary. Its a tough deal... I've had family members take the lords name in front of me... rebuking them just caused them to do it more... so now i just say "yup he's our savior" and say i'm so sorry internally to the Lord... they know not what they say especially when fueled by alcohol. Thats about the time to go home & I do & then I pray.

 

[swat4christ]

Hello Gary ... I've researched this and found biblical truth to both positions... I have family members who are adventist & family members who are pentecostal. Personally I lean more towards present with the Lord because of what Christ said to the thief on the cross... he didnt need to actually speak those words & the reason, I believe, he spoke them were to benefit those present and not just the thief... for in a moment the thief would know where he was anyhow so the words, in my opinion were for the living. Its one of those issues that i've spent hours pondering & then i had a revelation... it really doesnt matter to me cause either way its not going to effect me in death & it really doesnt effect me in life with the exception of how I grieve the loss of my beautiful Christian family members and friends. Its also quite sad to see the beautiful Christians who I love, in my family, passionately debating these issues, while the unbelievers sit in the other room thinkin... we want nothin to do with the whole christianity thing, look at arguing. they receive the righteous indignation as anger and it makes us look bad as people who are to let their light shine among men. I believe this forum is a place to debate such things, or if you are together with other believers it is absolutely prudent to give righteous rebuke. I think we need to let our light shine though and set these debates aside when we are in the company of unbelievers, we should unite in our belief in Christ as our risen Lord and savior... of course if someone deny's Christ as risen Lord then immediate rebuke is necessary. Its a tough deal... I've had family members take the lords name in front of me... rebuking them just caused them to do it more... so now i just say "yup he's our savior" and say i'm so sorry internally to the Lord... they know not what they say especially when fueled by alcohol. Thats about the time to go home & I do & then I pray.

Hello Moss: Again, I certainly agree with most of what you have written. There is a time to respond and a time not to respond. The Bible says, "answer not a fool according to his folly..." and in the following verse says "answer a fool according to his folly..." Proverbs 26:4-5. Not a contradiction, but statements of wisdom that instruct us that all the time is not the right time for everything. Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 further elaborates on this truth. Jesus also modeled this truth by sometimes responding to his accusers and sometimes not. Discerning the leadership of the Holy Spirit in these matters is crucial. Unfortunately, too many don't, as they are "quick to speak and slow to listen."

What I disagree with is your statement that you have found Biblical truth to support both positions. I am not quite sure what you mean when you say this. Both positions cannot be true for a believer. If one position is true, then logic demands that the other simply cannot be. And, Moss, if you don't care to continue this dialogue I will certainly respect that. However, if you do, I am really curious how you came to the conclusion that the Bible supports both positions. God bless and have a great weekend.

 

[swat4christ]

what if youre cremated?

Well, it doesn't matter whether you are cremated, blown to bits in a terrorist attack, or decompose in the grave. The atomic particles that compose your physical body will forever survive. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that you cannot destroy energy. You can only change it's form. Since God created the energy that was required to make you to begin with, He certainly won't have any challenge in reconstructing your corpse - no matter how it was "disposed of" - to produce a resurrected and glorified body! See 1 Corinthians 15:42-57. Hope this helps.

 

[imoss]

I have 2 uncles who contradict each other in their beliefs on this. Both have given me scripture to support their beliefs so I understand where they are both coming from, I happen to agree with one. Like I said, I believe we are present with the Lord but even if I'm wrong & my interpretation of the scripture is flawed... it has no bearing on me in death. I receive the Grace of our Lord so I know I will be with him, I dont much get into the whole cutting and pasting scripture to support my belief or to show you the scriptures given by my uncle who supports soul sleep... I think thats done alot in here and see the fruit of it: its very time consuming and I've not seen the process of cutting & pasting lead the two parties to amicable resolution... on the contrary. Plus i'm just not good at it!!!