Reconciled to God while enemies !

[rogerg]

I understand that. I do. We both agree that I can do nothing to assure my salvation. But is it so unlikely that I might want to say "Thankyou"? Am I adding to my salvation by thanking God for what Jesus did for me?

(I know you're not saying this, but please follow me.}

God provides the means by which God and I can be reconciled. And there is nothing that I can add or need to add in order to make that happen. But it is not adding to Christ's work for me to repent in response to that. My repentance isn't a necessary condition for my salvation. Rather, my repentance is an anticipated response to my reconciliation with God.

What I mean is this: while it’s true that God does everything and I add nothing to the *basis* of my reconciliation with Him, my repentance is the outward evidence that reconciliation has actually occurred. The apostles expect me to thank God for my salvation, not because gratitude contributes to it, but because gratitude expresses it. In the same way, they expect me to repent in light of what Christ accomplished on the cross. Repentance is not my contribution to salvation any more than thankfulness is — it is simply the external expression of an internal reality, the lived sign that I have embraced the reconciliation God has already provided.

Of course not, nor did I say anything otherwise. I believe just the opposite in fact - that we should profusely and continually thank God
for saving us - a gift that is far beyond our ability or comprehension or to remotely even understand what it means. However, should we believe that we contributed to it in any sense, then a part of the thanks would have to go to ourselves because of our contribution in addition to that of God's, which is an absurdity as there is only ONE (singular) Savior, Jesus Christ, not man.

 

[rogerg]

I didn't see this post before I answered the other one. I agree with you. Purged means eliminated or removed.

Think of it this way: before us stands a great temple with a massive door, and behind that door is the presence of God. The problem is not that God is unwilling to receive us, but that our sins function like a lock — they keep the door shut because they make us unfit to enter. What Paul and Hebrews both say is that the cross removed the barrier, not by paying off a creditor but by cleansing away what kept us outside. Christ didn’t force the door open; He took away the very thing that kept it closed, giving us real access to God.

Not according to the New Covenant.

 

[Roger316]

So what was Isaiah thinking about Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Cp to Peters 2 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Now the word wounded/ ḥālal in Isa 53:5 can be translated pierce

"He was pierced for our transgressions" (Isaiah 53:5): Crucifixion is a unique form of execution specifically defined by piercing the body (pinning the hands and feet with nails, and later a spear to the side). Traditional Jewish executions of Isaiah's era relied primarily on stoning or decapitation—not piercing AI

Paul treats the unity of the Suffering Servant and the Triumphant Servant as something hidden in the prophetic writings and only revealed in Christ. Isaiah saw both realities — the Servant who is exalted, lifted up, and honored, and the Servant who is rejected, pierced, and crushed — but Isaiah did not yet understand that these two portraits belonged to one and the same person. That is why Paul repeatedly calls the gospel “the mystery hidden for ages” and says that the rulers of this age “did not understand” what God was doing. The unity of suffering and glory in a single Servant is part of that mystery. Paul’s point is not that Isaiah was wrong, but that Isaiah saw the pieces without seeing how they fit together until Christ revealed the full picture.

 

[Roger316]

Of course not, nor did I say anything otherwise. I believe just the opposite in fact - that we should profusely and continually thank God
for saving us - a gift that is far beyond our ability or comprehension or to remotely even understand what it means. However, should we believe that we contributed to it in any sense, then a part of the thanks would have to go to ourselves because of our contribution in addition to that of God's, which is an absurdity as there is only ONE (singular) Savior, Jesus Christ, not man.

I agree. So now do you understand why I said that repentance is our response to reconciliation?

I think you added "contribution" to what I said. I never said that we contribute to our salvation. I'm sorry if you thought I said that. My point is temporal. Actual reconciliation takes place the moment I repent. My ability to repent is a different question.

 

[Roger316]

Not according to the New Covenant.

How so? I'm not following you?

 

[rogerg]

How so? I'm not following you?

Well, it seems to me if I understand you correctly, you are implying part of it still remains for to us to do - that we must pass through the "door". However, according to the NC, no such stipulations nor requirements of any kind exist - that everything, in total, has been completed on our behalf by God Himself with nothing whatsoever remaining nor left out.

 

[Cameron143]

Good question.
In Romans 3, Paul teaches that the cross was God’s public demonstration of His righteousness. For generations, God had been forgiving sins, and the cross shows that this mercy is not moral laxity. Christ bears the *exposure* of sin so that God’s justice is vindicated before the world. Then in Romans 6, Paul argues that those who accept the gospel accept the *meaning* of the cross: what Christ received is what I deserve. By agreeing with that verdict, believers participate in His death and rise into the new life His resurrection makes possible.

In Hebrews, the emphasis shifts to Christ’s obedience. His sufferings were the arena in which His faithfulness was proven, and that perfected obedience is the basis of His priestly authority. Because He passed through death and now possesses an indestructible life, He intercedes for His people with a legitimacy no other priest could claim. His resurrection life is the guarantee that He can raise His followers “with a shout,” exercising a priesthood that death cannot interrupt.

In 1 John, the cross is described in terms of propitiation—not as God venting wrath on His Son, but as God being pleased with the Son’s faithful obedience. Jesus lived sinlessly, offered Himself willingly, and revealed the righteousness of God in His suffering. Because the Father delights in the Son, He grants the Son’s requests on behalf of His people. Christ’s accepted offering becomes the foundation of His ongoing intercession, ensuring that His followers stand before God under the favor He secured.

That is the short answer. I can go into more detail if you like.

Jesus came to save His people from their sins. He lived a sinless life that His righteousness might be imputed to His people, and died a substitutionary death so that the wrath of God towards His people's sins would be satisfied. It is on this basis that God forgives sin and believers find acceptance before God.

 

[HeIsHere]

Jesus came to save His people from their sins. He lived a sinless life that His righteousness might be imputed to His people, and died a substitutionary death so that the wrath of God towards His people's sins would be satisfied. It is on this basis that God forgives sin and believers find acceptance before God.

Christ Jesus died for all people's sins.

 

[Cameron143]

Christ Jesus died for all people's sins.

The Bible says He came to save His people from their sins...Matthew 1:21. Is the Bible wrong?

 

[rogerg]

Well, it seems to me if I understand you correctly, you are implying part of it still remains for to us to do - that we must pass through the "door". However, according to the NC, no such stipulations nor requirements of any kind exist - that everything, in total, has been completed on our behalf by God Himself with nothing whatsoever remaining nor left out.

@Roger316

And what I may not have made clear enough, is that the NC does not apply to everyone but only to His elect - those whom He specifically places under the NC - sorry if that wasn't obvious.

 

[brightfame52]

Good question.

When Hebrews 1 says that the Son “purged our sins,” the word means to cleanse by removing, not to pay or to endure a penalty. The author uses katharismos, the same family of words used for cleansing the temple or purifying a worshiper — the emphasis is on removal, not transaction. The point is that Christ, by offering Himself in perfect obedience, has taken away the defilement that kept humanity from God. He doesn’t pay off a debt in Hebrews 1; He performs the priestly act of cleansing, restoring access to God by removing what stood between us and Him.

The word for purge katharismos,

Also means to

1. a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Also I showed you earlier that Christ came to satisfy the debt of sin for His People Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word for behoved is opheilō:

1. to owe
   
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      
      1. that which is due, the debt

Now scripture does metaphorically recognizes sins as debts to be forgiven like Matt 6:12

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.


Now Jesus in the Lukan version calls those debts sins

Lk 11:4

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

So this shows that Jesus paid our sin debt constituting forgiveness. The word for give in Matt 6 and Luke 12 aphiēmi is used 1 Jn 2:12

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

So I dont think you have a leg to stand on, there is a correlation with sins being a debt, and Christ having paid the debt by His Blood for the elect

 

[HeIsHere]

The Bible says He came to save His people from their sins...Matthew 1:21. Is the Bible wrong?

Jesus died for ALL people..one line out of context is very poor method of interpretation and usually fails.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul treats the unity of the Suffering Servant and the Triumphant Servant as something hidden in the prophetic writings and only revealed in Christ. Isaiah saw both realities — the Servant who is exalted, lifted up, and honored, and the Servant who is rejected, pierced, and crushed — but Isaiah did not yet understand that these two portraits belonged to one and the same person. That is why Paul repeatedly calls the gospel “the mystery hidden for ages” and says that the rulers of this age “did not understand” what God was doing. The unity of suffering and glory in a single Servant is part of that mystery. Paul’s point is not that Isaiah was wrong, but that Isaiah saw the pieces without seeing how they fit together until Christ revealed the full picture.

You just ignore scripture when it refutes you. Also the Mystery was in regard to Gentile Salvation via the Messiah. I already been over that with you. Isa 53 proves they knew something of the dying of the Messiah, that He would bare their iniquities that would be charged or laid on Him Isa 53 6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Now I will grant they may not have understood the mechanics of His death, but the most important thing they knew for the sake of this discussion, they knew He would be the one to be punished for their sins, a direct substitute. The offerings typed and pictured that.

So when David sought forgiveness, he knew it would be granted only on a just ground, through the Messiah

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus died for ALL people..one line out of context is very poor method of interpretation and usually fails.

False all people aren't His People in Matt 1:21

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus came to save His people from their sins. He lived a sinless life that His righteousness might be imputed to His people, and died a substitutionary death so that the wrath of God towards His people's sins would be satisfied. It is on this basis that God forgives sin and believers find acceptance before God.

Yes and it was always like that from Gen 3:15. Abel understood that back in the day Heb 11:4

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

That sacrifice no doubt reflected his Faith in the coming seed of the woman or Messiah that would satisfy for the peoples sins

Barnes writes on Heb 11 4

("By offering victims of the choice of his flock, Abel not only showed a more decided attachment to God, but there is great reason to suppose (as Abp. Magee on Atonement, p. 52, shows) that his faith was especially superior, as being not only directed to God alone (recognizing his existence, authority, and providence) but also to the Great Redeemer, promised immediately after the fall, Genesis 3:15 whose expiatory death was typified by animal sacrifice, by offering which Abel had evinced his faith in the great sacrifice of the Redeemer, prefigured by it: and then he obtained that acceptance from God, and witnessing of his offering, which was refused to Cain; see more in Macknight and Scott" - Bloomfield.

 

[HeIsHere]

False all people aren't His People in Matt 1:21

Obvious reference to the nation of Israel.

 

[brightfame52]

Obvious reference to the nation of Israel.

No its not, its His Church, the Body of Christ

 

[HeIsHere]

No its not, its His Church, the Body of Christ

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus died for ALL people..one line out of context is very poor method of interpretation and usually fails.

I guess that's why you fail so often.

 

[GWH]

God initiates and sinners get saved. He who begins the work also completes it...Philippians 1:6.

Sinners get saved IF they cooperate with God's initiation/leading.

TOP #18: Those who ignore God’s urging of repentance will reap divine wrath on the day of judgment. [Rom. 2:3-5] God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading, and those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves. (Cf. the big IFs in John 8:7, 14, 16, 19, 24, 31, 36, 39, 42, 46, 51, 54, 55).

Don't prooftext; Harmonize!