I thought u would y judging what u posted but I wanted to be sure, and I agree
Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe
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John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.
Calvinists saying God permitted Adam to pass down to us a nature that is morally unable to seek God
Is like saying God permits gravity to pull us down to earth.
He didn’t just permit it, he designed it that way!
No one could stand without his making it happen miraculously.... but then he reserves full right for condemning people for not standing.
Or of course if we want to make the argument more palatable to modern audiences we can argue they fit themselves for destruction,
yes even babies and young children, but of course that is nonsensical, they had no choice ever but to remain in their sin.
Is like saying God permits gravity to pull us down to earth.
He didn’t just permit it, he designed it that way!
No one could stand without his making it happen miraculously.... but then he reserves full right for condemning people for not standing.
Or of course if we want to make the argument more palatable to modern audiences we can argue they fit themselves for destruction,
yes even babies and young children, but of course that is nonsensical, they had no choice ever but to remain in their sin.
Here good Christians of all denominations and groups can and do vary in their understanding of the book of Revelation. I am a postmillennialist with a preterist view of Revelation, viewing the book as written before 70 AD. Yes, one of the very small minority of believers today.
I understand the book as expounded by David S. Clark in his "Message from Patmos". In chapter 7 where the 144,000 are first mentioned, Pastor Clark wrote:
"And so it was commanded: "Hurt not the earth nor the sea until we have sealed the servants of God in their foreheads." And 144,000 were sealed. It cannot be admitted that Jews alone constituted the servants of God. If the servants of God were to be sealed it must have embraced vastly more than the Jews. However at that particular time the Jews were the special objects of hatred, and the carnival of slaughter that ensued especially involved the Jews, and myriads of them were butchered without mercy. In these circumstances the danger to Jewish Christians was particularly great. This was true not only at Jerusalem but in all of those cities wliere the conflict raged. The Jewish converts would be subject to danger not only from those who hated the Jews, but from the persecution of the Jews themselves. So here we have this vision of a great multitude of Jews who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah and are sealed by God as his servants. That just 12,000 from each tribe are sealed shows that the number is not to be taken literally, but representatively. John the Baptist and Christ and his apostles all preached to the Jews up and down Judea and Galilee. And the command of Christ on the eve of his ascension was to "begin at Jerusalem." And when Paul went on his missionary journeys he went first into the synagogues and preached Christ. Here then are the results of the gospel among the Jews of that day."
For any who are interested or curious about this commentary, it can be read online:
John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.
Further hint: cannot is due to will not and thus do not have the HS
(Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37, John 3:16-18, Rom. 6:16).
Actually its both, God fits them for destruction first and they follow suit and fit themselves for destruction in agreement with Gods decree for them. When in Rom 9 22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Fitted the greek word katartizō:
. to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust:
Note from lexicon:
of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction
Its a perfect participle passive voice, some argue middle but its both, but since God is the initial maker/creator He initiated it
Yes we are, children of disobedience by nature Eph 2:2 and the word disobedience apeitheia is made from apeitheia:
- impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious
Destruction does not mean hell... just like how the saved does not always mean spiritual salvation.
We need to keep in mind how people of that time period expressed themselves.
Here good Christians of all denominations and groups can and do vary in their understanding of the book of Revelation. I am a postmillennialist with a preterist view of Revelation, viewing the book as written before 70 AD. Yes, one of the very small minority of believers today.
I understand the book as expounded by David S. Clark in his "Message from Patmos". In chapter 7 where the 144,000 are first mentioned, Pastor Clark wrote:
"And so it was commanded: "Hurt not the earth nor the sea until we have sealed the servants of God in their foreheads." And 144,000 were sealed. It cannot be admitted that Jews alone constituted the servants of God. If the servants of God were to be sealed it must have embraced vastly more than the Jews. However at that particular time the Jews were the special objects of hatred, and the carnival of slaughter that ensued especially involved the Jews, and myriads of them were butchered without mercy. In these circumstances the danger to Jewish Christians was particularly great. This was true not only at Jerusalem but in all of those cities wliere the conflict raged. The Jewish converts would be subject to danger not only from those who hated the Jews, but from the persecution of the Jews themselves. So here we have this vision of a great multitude of Jews who have accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah and are sealed by God as his servants. That just 12,000 from each tribe are sealed shows that the number is not to be taken literally, but representatively. John the Baptist and Christ and his apostles all preached to the Jews up and down Judea and Galilee. And the command of Christ on the eve of his ascension was to "begin at Jerusalem." And when Paul went on his missionary journeys he went first into the synagogues and preached Christ. Here then are the results of the gospel among the Jews of that day."
For any who are interested or curious about this commentary, it can be read online:
I agree that, as you said, many vary in their understanding of the book of Revelation - personally, I see it differently than you do.
In any event, I would suggest that anything other than narrowly focused ad hoc, discussions of specific topics of The Revelation in this thread might well end up consuming and derailing it - as often happens with general discussions of The Revelation. My intent was only to expound a little on your comment - sorry if I gave a different impression, nevertheless, I found your post above interesting to read and to ponder.
By nature . Thats how we born. The word nature in Eph 2:3 is the greek word physis :
nature
- the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature
- as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse
- as opposed what has been produced by the art of man: the natural branches, i.e. branches by the operation of nature
- birth, physical origin
Yes it does, the greek word apōleia:
- the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
If you want to debate it fine, but its some kind of eternal ruin and punishment from God and its everlasting 2 Thess 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Yeah thats tough. Ive said Jesus died for you so many times ive lost count. Id have to stop myself to word it some other way
I dont see anything in Genesis about any of that. ALl I see is: DEATH entered the world and few other consequences.
But God made man upright, yet they sought out many schemes as the Bible says
Taken from the respected BDAG NT Greek-English Lexicon
φύσις phusis
1 condition or circumstance as determined by birth, natural endowment/condition, nature, esp. as inherited fr. one’s ancestors, in contrast to status or characteristics that are acquired after birth (Isocr. 4, 105 φύσει πολίτης; Isaeus 6, 28 φύσει υἱός; Pla., Menex. 245d φύσει βάρβαροι, νόμῳ Ἕλληνες; Just., A I, 1, 1 Καίσαρος φύσει υἱῷ; SIG 720, 3; OGI 472, 4; 558, 6 al.; PFay 19, 11.—Theoph. Ant. 1, 13 [p. 86, 16]) ἡμεῖς φύσει Ἰουδαῖοι Gal 2:15 (cp. Ptolemaeus, Περὶ Ἡρῴδου τ. βασιλέως: no. 199 Jac. [I A.D.] Ἰουδαῖοι … ἐξ ἀρχῆς φυσικοί; Jos., Ant. 7, 130; φύσει Λιμναίου IK XXXVII, 15, 3 of the birth daughter of L. in contrast to her adoptive relationship w. one named Arsas). ἡ ἐκ φύσεως ἀκροβυστία the uncircumcision that is so by nature (a ref. to non-Israelites, who lack the moral cultivation of those who are circumcised and yet ‘observe the upright requirements of the law’ [Ro 2:26]. Israelites who violate their responsibilities to God, despite their privileged position indicated by receipt of circumcision and special revelation, run the risk of placing themselves in the condition of the uncircumcised) Ro 2:27. ἤμεθα τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς we were, in our natural condition (as descendants of Adam), subject to (God’s) wrath Eph 2:3 (the position of φύσει betw. the two words as Plut., Mor. 701a; DTurner, Grace Theological Journal 1, ’80, 195–219). The Christians of Tralles have a blameless disposition οὐ κατὰ χρῆσιν, ἀλλὰ κατὰ φύσιν not from habit, but by nature ITr 1:1 (here the contrast is between perfunctory virtue and spontaneous or instinctive behavior; Pindar sim. extolled the virtues of athletes who, in contrast to those w. mere acquired learning, reflected their ancestral breeding for excellence: O. 7, 90–92; P. 10, 11–14; N. 3, 40–42; 6, 8–16). οἱ κατὰ φύσιν κλάδοι the natural branches Ro 11:21, 24c. ἡ κατὰ φύσιν ἀγριέλαιος a tree which by nature is a wild olive vs. 24a; opp. παρὰ φύσιν contrary to nature vs. 24b; s. lit. s.v. ἀγριέλαιος and ἐλαία 1. On κατὰ and παρὰ φύσιν s. MPohlenz, Die Stoa I ’48, 488c.
Another excellent point, thanks for that. I admit its a good argument
Yes, the Lord knew he would build his church and those that would become members of his body would be given those blessings. Not one person was elected to be in his body from the foundation of the world. The context is blessings found in Christ not people.
Jonah 3
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.